Entomological labels

There are more Japanese than Russians!
I don't like the word "nonsense".

About labels I want to note..
If the collection is intended to be included in a foreign museum or collection, then of course it is better to write in Latin (i.e. in English or Latin letters)..

Personally, I do this - Russian fees, Moldovan, I write in Russian. I write foreign ones either in my native language, if they are received in that language, or in English, since this is available to everyone..
I think that if someone decides to visit Russia to catch a certain bug, then it is better for them to know the labels in Russian, so it will be easier to find out from the locals where and how to get there..

Well, then you need to write two labels for rare and local nasikomyms.
In Russian and English...
And it is advisable to translate the name literally into Russian...

What example did Yakovlev use? How does a private collection differ from a scientific one?
What does this have to do with the Chinese, who did not bother to learn the text of the speech properly? By the way, Neil, why are you visiting this forum? It's in Russian! But, nevertheless, it claims to be somewhat scientific. It's an outrage.

And there are even more Chinese. And what does this mean? That Chinese is more widely spoken than English or Russian? I also don't like it when people sigh heavily: "Oh, who am I teaching..."

What example did Yakovlev use? How does a private collection differ from a scientific one?
What does this have to do with the Chinese, who did not bother to learn the text of the speech properly? By the way, Neil, why are you visiting this forum? It's in Russian! But, nevertheless, it claims to be somewhat scientific. It's an outrage.

I think we should stop the discussion here.

I think we should stop the discussion here

If the competent arguments are exhausted, then of course.

I speak very poor English, but I can't write in it. If I am ready to provide my material for work to foreign specialists, then I simply have to do it, this is an elementary respect for people who do not speak Russian (and there are many of them). If the collection is for internal use, then at least in gibberish. Then, nothing prevents you from pricking two labels, in English and the language of the area where the insect was collected or the language of the collector.
By the way, Ripper, why not in Moldovan?

How can I determine the level of usage of a collection? Where is the boundary that separates the inner layer from the outer layer? Availability of types? The presence of rare species? And you can write four labels, but it's long, troublesome and uninteresting. A willingness to provide material... I believe, Seryoga, if your material is really of great scientific value, then the person interested will study it anyway. By the way, both Japan and China are not far from you there. But Europe and the United States are too far away. Why don't you write labels in Japanese and Chinese, because the probability that Japanese and Chinese specialists will be interested in your collection is much higher - after all, adjacent territories. And for them, the use of their native language would be much more respected and convenient. Again, if we proceed from Yakovlev's post, that Japanese is now spoken by such a large number of people...

The b border is in the head of the collection manager, and the views included in it can be very ordinary. The time spent on putting the insect in the collection will pay off with interest and will not be appreciated by us so much by posterity. Well, if it (the collection) is not an empty accumulator, and the collector is not paranoid. It's pointless to deny the international importance of English, I'm not going to write labels in all the languages of the world. What does it have to do with Japanese or Chinese? We are indeed getting closer to China and Japan and further away from Moscow. But this is not the fault of the Far East. And the beetles are not patriots at all climbing abroad. So trying to understand the view, we have to watch episodes from China, Korea,and Japan. And following your logic, they should tell me-learn Chinese, Korean, Japanese...

Well, then you need to write two labels for rare and local nasikomyms.
In Russian and English...
And it is advisable to translate the name literally into Russian...    

By the way, this is an option.. You can write labels in English, and in parentheses the native name in the local language.. So it will be both..

Cerega:
I don't like Moldovan.. Russian is more acceptable and convenient )
Here are the Romanian labels, I must write in Romanian.

Then here's the question. Mostly to Neilson, but I'm not sure what he's going to say to me. Let's say you have a computer and Google at hand, but the collector Pyotr Ilyich 87 years old has nothing like that. But he courageously continues to collect, following the international requirements for which you all stand so much, and fights against the relic-he begins to write new labels in Latin, and in English. For a long time he breaks his senile brains, as Yelets is written. And finally, with a trembling hand, he draws out Elez in ink, forgetting to write Lypezki reg due to poor memory. He is lucky, the view turns out to be new, but the specialist takes up his description after the old man's death. And now the specialist searches for Elez for a long time, and does not find it, because in Google and on all international maps there is no such name. So the unfortunate specialist writes in the description of the species: "We know only one specimen with the label Elez, 21.05.2008. Unfortunately, it was not possible to determine the locality of the find." And all your ridiculous benefits from being available to foreigners are shattered by the inability to identify the location of the specimen's discovery.

Yes, Seryoga, just in case. Korean, Chinese, and Japanese, no matter what you say, are not international languages at least not now. No matter how much Yakovlev wanted it. So don't be disingenuous.

Korean, Chinese, and Japanese, as well as Russian, are not international languages at least not now. That's what I'm talking about. International, is English. And Pyotr Ilyich, as he wrote, will continue to write, do not worry about him, everything will be fine with the new look.

I'm sorry, the sun is out, but for some reason it's not Moscow time, and it's already tomorrow. I'm going to spend the night...

And Pyotr Ilyich, as he wrote, will continue to write, do not worry about him, everything will be fine with the new look.

What makes you think that? Seryoga, a young and promising young man, will come up to him when he is going to show his plans to his friend Stepan Ivanych, and say: "Now, Father, everyone is trying to write labels in English. Otherwise, no one will look at your collection later."And old people - they are all naive.

If he sends me, he'll be right in his own way... And he will write labels in Cyrillic, happy and peaceful...

I repeat once again for those who do not read my messages:
I suggest that, for those who like to write in English, write the name in parentheses in the local language!11 and stop this stupid discussion of swearing, not having the desire to get the truth, but only to expose the interlocutor as not reasonable enough and competent!

How can I say this is not oil in the fire. And so put in a good word. I used to sign it in Latin + English. Potm I'm tired of this case. I write exact geographical names in my native Russian (with the en yin and soft zank at the end for all Moldovan villages). For interesting views with the appearance of the navigator, I give you a link (and this will certainly not cause any questions in the present or in the future). I used to write labels with a pencil, but now I'm too tired to spend a lot of time. I type a box of straightened paper with rough labels, and then print out a sheet of signed documents on them. By the way, not at all vtemu, but I thought that the printer does not take whatman. But when I found the paper selection function (when printing a document - there is cardboard and hard paper), I made a final choice. And they have pros and cons. It's just that everyone chooses the best option for themselves. I don't think that my collection will reach the world level, but if this happens, then a week without a break in the word. Ctrl C and Ctrl V. Here are the labels you need.

There are more Japanese than Russians!
I don't like the word "nonsense".

Non-entomological digression:
As I recall, the population of Japan is just under 130 million people, and Russia-140 million people. Plus, there are practically no large Japanese communities outside of Japan that have preserved their national identity, and the number of native speakers of Russian only in Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan is several tens of millions of people.
Sorry, but there are more Russians than Japanese.

yes, and in Moldova probably 0.5-1 million will be collected
Japan's territory is very sparse.. And our people are like that!!!

But if it were just that there are more of us, then we're right... eh..

I repeat once again for those who do not read my messages:
I suggest that, for those who like to write in English, write the name in parentheses in the local language!11 and stop this stupid discussion of swearing, not having the desire to get the truth, but only to expose the interlocutor as not reasonable enough and competent!

I have no intention of making anyone look like a fool out there. It just turned out that, apart from the phrase "science should be international", the respected opponents have no other arguments. When I even gave a clear example OF HOW writing in an international language can bring obvious harm and destroy the whole meaning of what is written, i.e. destroy the meaning of the label itself-Obviously, there will be no other arguments. And "science must be international" reminds me of "proletarians of all countries, unite!"

Non-entomological digression:
As I recall, the population of Japan is just under 130 million people, and Russia-140 million people. Plus, there are practically no large Japanese communities outside of Japan that have preserved their national identity, and the number of native speakers of Russian only in Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan is several tens of millions of people.
Sorry, but there are more Russians than Japanese.

And if you count on people related to entomology, then I'm not sure that we will win so easily...

This post was edited by Cerega - 30.01.2009 11: 46

I have no intention of making anyone look like a fool out there. It just turned out that, apart from the phrase "science should be international", the respected opponents have no other arguments. When I even gave a clear example OF HOW writing in an international language can bring obvious harm and destroy the whole meaning of what is written, i.e. destroy the meaning of the label itself-Obviously, there will be no other arguments. And "science must be international" reminds me of " proletarians of all countries, unite!"

Often, in the heat of an argument, we see only our own arguments - meaningful and not refutable...

eehh.. and the message with the native spelling of the locale in parentheses after English is ignored by everyone
on the other hand, it's good when labels in Chinese don't come across

All right, then, point out your own tangible, clear arguments, making them as specific as possible, rather than worded in general vague words like internationalizing science or rejecting the international meanings of English. and if possible, give your own examples.

eehh.. and the message with the native spelling of the locale in parentheses after English is ignored by everyone
on the other hand, it's good when you don't come across labels in Chinese

Not at all. It seems quite rational to me.

eehh.. and the message with the native spelling of the locale in parentheses after English is ignored by everyone
on the other hand, it's good when you don't come across labels in Chinese

I fully support it, if everything is included, and there is no loss of important information, the label is not rubber. And if not, then it's better to pin another one, my arm won't break off, but it doesn't matter. The main thing is that it would be convenient for someone who reads the label.

All right, then, point out your own tangible, clear arguments, making them as specific as possible, rather than worded in general vague words like internationalizing science or rejecting the international meanings of English. and if possible, give your own examples.

I won't, I don't see the point. Write at least in Old Slavonic.

once you have agreed, the discussion can be stopped.

And if you count on people related to entomology, then I'm not sure that we will win so easily...

Yes, you can count anything. It can be calculated that in Japan the number of obstetricians and gynecologists per capita is higher than in Russia. So what?
It was clearly stated that " there are more Japanese than Russians." In our reality, the opposite is true. I'm just talking about this.

I just thought that we are talking about those who WANT to read the data from the label, but can not do it. This forum is not about midwives and you understand that. And for the fact that there are more of us, I am, of course, proud.

Non-entomological digression:
As I recall, the population of Japan is just under 130 million people, and Russia-140 million people. Plus, there are practically no large Japanese communities outside of Japan that have preserved their national identity, and the number of native speakers of Russian only in Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan is several tens of millions of people.
Sorry, but there are more Russians than Japanese.

If I understand correctly, then the Tatars, Bashkirs, Yakuts, and the peoples of the North. Caucasus, etc., in your opinion, are they also Russian? I'm afraid many people will be offended...

I didn't want to get involved in this flame, but I couldn't stand it...

We discussed Russian-speaking peoples here. Not only Russians, but all those who are familiar with the Russian language. You understand perfectly well that this is what we are talking about. Therefore, do not put pressure on touchy Yakuts and Tatars.

Write the latitude and longitude (in Google you can easily find the coordinates of any place), according to such data, anyone will understand.

if there is
a zhepes, then no problem.. otherwise-Encarta.
in general, anyone who gets an nca label in an unfamiliar language can send a photo to a friend who knows this language, who will explain everything in an accessible way.

Perhaps I will repeat what someone has already said, but I don't have the strength to read all the previous ones, I only read the current page.

Today, of course, you should get used to English (as everyone who uses a computer is used to in one way or another). It is hardly justified to focus the collection on foreigners, the locale (and, therefore, everything in general) should be written in the language accepted in the given area; but when transferring material abroad, labels should, of course, either provide an additional translation (and then let the new owner of the exhibit tease what he likes), or immediately translate it into English (any foreigner should be able to translate it into their native mou).

An entomologist I know told me that labels should generally only be written in English these days. However, the conversation then concerned material from China and from other countries with languages with a font that is no more understandable to me. But for a Chinese collector, of course, it is best to label your own home collections in Chinese. And for me in Moscow, it is really best to have such material with an English annotation. But I always mark my own in Russian. By the way, I don't retroactively change Russian-language labels to sovereign ones based on material from the former Soviet republics, and even when filling out new ones, I don't rush to forget Russian. For example, if I ask someone in the vicinity of the Koliivska platform (Odessa region) how to get to the Koliivskaya platform, the answer will be a long scratching of turnips (like at dummies in Moscow, when instead of Kachalova Street you ask for a ride to Malaya Nikitskaya). If you ask for directions to the Puteyskaya platform (as it was called on maps earlier and as the local population still calls it, despite the changed signs), anyone can tell you. But, of course, you should act on the situation here. After all, if the collection is not bequeathed to kozheed, then in the future (if people do not think to restore the toponymy) points with the old name may not be found: after all, you should look for maps of those years when the specimen was caught, and not on those maps that are twenty years older than the specimen itself. Therefore, we will soon have to switch to Koliivska .

This option would also be quite rational: first indicate the country in English, and then write everything else in its language. This is an analogy, by the way, with the design of an envelope of mail sent abroad adopted in the USSR: for those who get the envelope first, they usually put the name of the country in Russian, and then the entire address is written in the language of the addressee's country (formally allowed in French, as the main language of the Universal Postal Union), so how to read it will no longer be ours, but the local ones. In this case, the label first indicates to anyone (no matter where they are) the country of capture, and thus - which dictionary to grab. It is absolutely indisputable that, apart from the language of the locality, no other language guarantees toponymic identification in this locality afterwards. It should also be remembered that the transcription of proper names, which is accepted in our country, is not accepted in many countries with the Latin alphabet: a German will not change the spelling of an English surname or place name to preserve pronunciation, but simply rewrite it to a letter. And then let the reader either pronounce according to their own rules, or - if they know the original language - show off the original pronunciation of the word.

As for the coordinates, I think this is a double-edged sword. At first glance, it is scientific. But constantly grabbing devices or getting into Google is not such an easy task. When compiling an annotated list of species, it is not humanly possible to indicate a list of known points of registration of a species in a species article, but it is absurd to indicate degrees and minutes, so the author of the article will have to dig around to translate such advanced labels in a normal way. And if he has a few dozen of them (not to mention hundreds), then he will curse all the glonasses in the world. Yes, and it will be very difficult for an entomologist-field worker-if you want to catch the same butterfly in the same clearing, in the same village - to find out from the local old woman where the dot is (hereinafter referred to as the number). They'll take the catcher to either a madhouse or a cop. And it's much easier to ask your grandmother where the path from Glupeevo to Durnevo is. Yes, and on the map it is easier to find the river Drisenku, than a second. Of course, you can convert existing coordinate points to normal toponymy via Google and so on before going to the field, and then go to the places; but then the amount of work will increase so much that you will have very little time to travel. In addition, in this case, there is a very high risk of encountering an error in the label: firstly, the device that was given digital location instructions could have "lied" at least a little; secondly, it is easy for a living person to confuse the number when making a label, and an error (typo) in the figure happens in everyday practice much more often than mixing Izhevsk with Rybinsk. An error in one letter of a geographical name in a single address is easy to calculate, and an error in one degree of longitude will cause you to search for carcharodus in a peat bog for a long time... The faunal reliability of the material will decrease, and what is most terrible-in a latent way, leaving no way to determine in which case and for how many kilometers you were cheated. But if there is no criterion for rejecting unreliable material from reliable, then the entire array becomes unreliable. It is unthinkable to write both humanly and numerically on the same label; I personally have already reached the 4th size in label printing and in some places even use the size 3,5. But on my labels, points can be found - just spit (I, of course, mean those labels that I keep in my own collections).

I believe that someone will initially switch (or even have already switched) in the heat of the moment to digital marking of dots on labels, but this method has no more long-term prospects than the digital method of marking notes in music that was once proposed.

Written correctly, well, very much. Be easier and people will reach out to you.

Written correctly, well, very much. Be easier and people will reach out to you.

Written in the correct Russian language. The sentences are logically constructed and the idea is beautifully expressed.

But I want to tell you something completely different. Do forum members have any examples of extremely accurate but concise geographical labels? Such as one pre-revolutionary label that was pinned under a number of copies in the collection of Simferopol State University (now Tavrichesky National Museum). un-tet):

"Crimea, Kacha river, seashore"

I'm still jealous...

Stepanov's collection includes views from the 30s and 40s. So it says Frunze (and all). I only recently found out that this is Bishkek. When making an annotated list in Excel, I write one column exactly according to Stepanov, to the point and comma, and the other in a modern manner. And the oldest copy that I had to hold in my hands about 3 years ago, one mustache dated 1905, the label was written in Saroslavyansky. Already goosebumps when you learn the story of a beetle that survived the events of those great years. And as they say, the creator is immortal because of his creation. There is no person and the beetle is here. True, recently, no matter how much I looked for a beetle in the museum, it was not there.
2 A. J. Elez
Compiling an annotated list:
It is always necessary to first indicate the area, point and other signs, and only then in addition to zhipies.
ZHIPES data is not the last resort at all. It is quite logical that it is much easier to confuse one digit with human inattention and fatigue, when processing a large amount of data. But somehow it's easier when between two localities, instead of the banal roc. s. Ivanovka, there are also additional data.