Ecosystem

This topic also stuck in my head for a long time!It seems to me quite possible to equip one room for a piece of nature.Tightness is not a problem at all.But the autonomous existence of all this is more difficult.It seems to me that there will always be a need to deliver material from the outside.although if it is limited to a certain type of composition, then...and in general, this is a very good topic for discussion. please feel free to share your thoughts on this issue.zhdemsss.

What about the plants? In theory, they will have to ensure the survival of animals.
But to allocate a whole room, zheto of course zdooovo! I'll limit myself to an aquarium with 100 litters. I am especially surprised by the idea of how to plant asthenia in the ground in the room and make a pond there. And, still, if there is a tightness, then the water will condense and it will rain. I can't imagine such a room....

Well, about the rain, that's a giggle, of course.(although with our technologies, such irrigation is quite realistic.)But by hermiticity, I do not mean a whole politelen package, but a complete prevention of the spread of animals around the hut.Haven't you ever seen fountains in the shops on the floors?Now there is a huge variety of plastic materials, from oilcloth to plastic floors.and if the tubs of plants are hidden under the surrounding environment...You can also provide artificial lighting to avoid the accumulation of animals near the window.In the beginning, I think everything is very real.The main desire and opportunities to match.

Well, opportunities are of course the main thing. I live in a one-room apartment, . It's fun to turn it into an exystem.

So I say,the main thing here is imagination!It's just going to play out so fast!And it seems that everything is possible and somehow there is no determination!Lucky you!I'm still living with my relatives.so that the extra worm from the street nepritashchish!Here's how to buy an apartment so I will definitely report on the progress of work on the creation!I think if the walls are still covered with nature wallpaper, the effect should be.although it is still very difficult to create a complete ecosystem.with butterflies there is clear, but what about aphids any to be?it is unlikely that you will be able to control someone's number without interference.

I remember coming across a publication about an autonomous ecosystem - it was a sealed glass ball filled with water, single-celled algae, bacteria and crustaceans. And it seems that this farm was positioned on the American market as "an aquarium that does not need to be taken care of".
P.S. In my opinion, I read in the magazine "Science and Life".

This post was edited by Mylabris - 07/16/2008 04: 47

yes, of course, I will repeat again,a full copy of the ecosystem will fail to create.here's just something similar.

With existing technologies in electronics, lighting, hydraulics,
air conditioning, an entire room can be turned into a
kind of ecosystem. The task becomes more complicated when volumes decrease. For example,
many tropical plants refuse to grow in a room due
to intolerance to dry air, and this is the main food source.
If there is a reservoir in the room (2 aquariums for 300 liters), these problems disappear even in winter. Further, with an increase in plant mass, evaporation will increase even more,
which will make it possible for insect species that are sensitive to humidity to exist.
If you provide plants with adequate lighting, such as metal halide (mg)
lamps combined with humidity, then many tropical species will turn into
unpretentious ones. The same lamps will also provide heat.
The species composition will, of course, be very small, in comparison with the natural one...
There can be a lot of options. You only need a desire and a lot of MONEY.

with butterflies there is clear, but what about aphids anyhow to be?it is unlikely that you will be able to control someone's number without interference.

Aphids are eaten by young mantises..

Alex017-I think we understand each other and what we are talking about.Thanks!you were very clear about the money.Although it seems to me more important that the hands were properly sharpened and the brains were enough.What do you think ,perhaps air conditioning can somehow help in creating climatic conditions?Or is there any other climate control device for apartments?or will it still be physically harmful to insects?

This post was edited by Raptor - 07/23/2008 14: 50

And with enough imagination, I think that tubs with flowers and shrubs can be covered with soil, etc.You can also do it with an aquarium made to order(that is, any convenient shape)The main thing is a good landscape design!

Brains are enough, but money.... You have to do a lot with your hands.
The air conditioner is needed for cooling from lighting for plants. The heating is very decent, aggravated by PVC windows, and I have an aquarium lighting yet.
There are air conditioners that maintain humidity. They're sooooo expensive. But it doesn't make sense to put others. I dream about it. I think to buy it next year. So far, it is the temperature that limits the installation of lighting in the room, and therefore the number of plants. Disguising the pots is not difficult. It's hard to get something to grow in them.

I need to go shopping and ask around.What do you think, should you block the access of sunlight from the windows?It seems to me that if this is not done, then all the animals will accumulate there.

Regarding the air conditioner, there may be many options, for example, a cheap air conditioner and a humidifier, but I want to set the mode once and forget, and not worry about 2 devices.
If you install a light so that avocados grow deep into the room (I read that leafy plants love it) in winter, then the window can be shaded, because demanding plants will not grow even in summer without illumination.

I didn't even think about tropical views.At least try the locals.
Although of course, further requests grow as usual.

This post was edited by Raptor - 27.07.2008 18: 53

And with our types of problems more. Plants need an imitation of the cold season, otherwise they will die (I experimented with cranberries, blueberries, cranberries, blueberries, but I think that others are similar). There are not enough insects to choose from....

Yes, that's also true.I didn't think of it that way.A wide-open window in the room all winter is somehow still neto.thank you for your advice!

Always happy to help! This topic is very interesting for me. But for its implementation, you need to have at least an extra room.
Before you take on something serious, big and very expensive, you need to start with an aquarium of 500 liters and simple small sticks (3-5 centimeters). So you can find out if the idea is real: how much the growth of greenery will outstrip the needs of insects (this is the main thing).
You can also practice growing the most promising tropical plants in terms of feeding.

Yes, it will take time for the plants to take root.by the way, here is a question-and on what site can you find any atlas of tropical butterflies and on what plants do their caterpillars feed?well, something like that.in Russian?do you have a link?

Unfortunately, no one seems to know of such sites

I never had the patience to bring out a butterfly. The biggest challenge was to provide the caterpillar with food. Therefore, I gave preference to bronze beetles.

When buying a butterfly, you can always ask what they grow caterpillars on. If you catch it yourself, it's more difficult, of course. However, if we are talking about tropical butterflies, then they are easier to buy than to catch. These are amateur tips, so don't be offended. When I was faced with the fact that the ordered larvae are on the way, but I can't find food, I spent a lot of nerves.


As for plants, it takes a lot of time and work. And when it all grows up, it will be a pity to feed it.

IMHO, my mind, arriving in a perfectly round state of a blunt heavy body in a vacuum, sees the solution to the problem of a mini-ecosystem in the following. First, take a few postulates about natural ecosystems. I didn't check them: maybe I'm wrong - if you want - check them.
1) Natural ecosystems are open systems in relation to each other. the biosphere is not closed in relation to space.
2)Natural ecosystems exist in a gradient environment.

What we have - we need to create a system that is closed in substance and open in energy and information,

Solution:
1) The larger the volume-the better,
2) The level of objects - micro. This will ensure the maximum number and protect against accidental extinction,
3) The system must be compartmentalized, each compartment has its own conditions that arise due to the superposition of gradients of environmental properties.
3.1-you need to create gradients
3.2 you need to create compartments that communicate with each other,

The main scheme of compartmentalization is growth compartments and shelter compartments in which the species being eaten can hide from the predator. In the simplest case, the predator is larger than the victim and simply does not crawl through the hole )))) Or current-carries the victim from the growth tank to the reservoir to the predators. (chlorella to amoebas) The device of the aquarium is a cascade.

4) cyclical fluctuations of gradients-gradients should move through the environment with a certain frequency - for example, a cycle of 100 days will be optimal.

5) The ecosystem should be aquatic - there are more species available - and the more species - the more stable it is.

But! There must be a ground phase and an air phase,

So - this will be a cascade aquarium divided into cells. The first cell contains a plant ecosystem - macrophyte duckweed and protozoa with chlorella. all this flows down to crustaceans-daphnia and snails (coil). The development of snails is limited by calcium-there is no predator on them. The development of crustaceans-they are carried into the tank with gupiks or predatory insects or cyclops crustaceans (they are predatory: freshwater hydra also fit there). From there-to the reservoir of reducers-a kind of biofilter system with soil in several layers of living creatures there may be sponges - for example, bodyaga. The pump takes water from the bottom up to 1 tank. Everything is lit, everything is sealed, but you need a supply of air-like a pool of CO2 and O and activated carbon at the bottom-like a pool for micro and macronutrients and bacteria. Gradients are transverse (temperature and light).
Fluctuations are easy to arrange - change the rate of discharge from one chamber to another.
You can make a reservoir where it will be drained from each element of the cascade. but you can't go back from there.
Here is such a system.

This post was edited by KCN - 24.06.2018 18: 08

Clever!

For some reason, I thought that if you limit the number, then the food resources will disappear and everything will die.

Unfortunately, I do not have the opportunity (or rather, the place) to do this myself - so I limit myself to a decorative aquarium. And once upon a time there were ants, spiders, caterpillars, earwigs: and a lot of all sorts of good things,,,,,

"For some reason, I thought that if you limit the number, then the food resources will disappear and everything will die. "- yes: that's why it's easier to make a" sanctuary " for victims where they can breed out of the predator's reach. An excess of victims will migrate (passively or actively) from the "reserve" to the predator zone - where they will be eaten. There are 2 possible behaviors of the prey population in the predator zone - it can reproduce and feed or not-those simply persist. In the simplest case, the equation for the number of prey in the predator zone will be somewhere like this: dn/dt=an^2+M-b*n*p
p-predator
n-prey
M-migrants of the victim
a b - coefficients of fertility and efficiency of the predator, respectively
, food for the victim is both in the reserve and in the zone the difference between zones is that there is no predator in the reserve.

And I also completely forgot - in the model I invented, the victim should not directly eat plants - it is better that plants produce dead tissue, protozoa eat these products: and they were already eaten by the victim-for example, daphnia. daphnia can give sharp fluctuations in the number-this is typical for it - so it is better that the protozoa have their own "reserve"-a partition with a nylon stocking or something similar is suitable.

do not produce consecutive messages, in other words, write in one message.

This post was edited by Bolivar - 04/26/2009 13: 30

Interseno, is anyone else interested in this idea?
I'm trying to do something, although it is clear that it is very difficult to close such an "ecosystem", in general, you need to feed everyone. But you can strive to expand the diversity of species. With plants, in principle, it is not so difficult, although it is certainly difficult, especially considering that I want to populate the terrarium with local plants, and they are very difficult to take root, I tried a lot of species, and they either did not take root, or very much occupied the space.
In the pictures, the situation at the moment is a terrarium 110X50X50, with 2 zones - "dry" and "wet" as well as a" drinking bowl " 33X33cm with a volume of 10 liters. In turn, the wet zone is divided into two subzones - shaded and illuminated. Shaded area (soil type - chernozem) It is also divided into two subzones: zana, which is bounded by fern, and zana, which is populated by fern(to prevent fern expansion). Dividers made of glass, lowered into the ground by 5 cm. The depth of the soil is 10 cm everywhere, the fern does not pass them.
In the illuminated zone (the soil type is peat), only fern and one of the cereals(the species is not known) gained an advantage, as well as Karolinska bacopa in the shaded zone, marsh ludwigia, cryptocoryne, marsilia and local grass like bedstraw grow in a space limited by ferns.
In the drinking bowl(peat and fine gravel) grows anubias, local sedge?, hornwort, ludwigia, on the stone grows a local stonecrop, which blooms regularly.
In the dry zone there are two subzones - steppe (soil-steppe soil with a high content of chalk and limestone) and chernozem (soil-chernozem), chernozem is divided into two subzones - not watered(where there are runners) and watered. Various local and non-native plants grow, including" coming in " from the wet zone of bacopa, which is surprisingly well established in this soil. In addition to bakop, kalanchoe still grows there(it grew from the "children" quite recently), stapelia (it also grew from one branch, but a long time ago) and another tropical plant, I forgot the name
From the locals-salty iris, yarrow, various cereals, goniolimon, sage, kupena, plus all sorts of seeds sprout that I give to feed the ants.

Of the animals, earthworms, geophiles, drupes, woodlice got the advantage, there are three types of ants, reapers, runners and garden ones, some snails with a size of about 2 mm, different spiders, well, different hidden-jawed ones, and shrimps in a drinking bowl, well, maybe I didn't notice anyone else, + recently the dybka lived, and a praying mantis ordinary, pok apultimate did not try to eat the croaker and was not expelled for this, but the rack was already dead, by the way it was eaten with giblets in the same place, only its legs remained. I laid a lot of eggs.
Also there live two common croaks and an ordinary copperhead.
Now here are the praying mantises from the ooteka hatched there, but they are probably almost eaten, although last year there was one who survived up to 4 molts!
What works from natural mechanisms-disposal of faeces of crows and copperheads - without a trace, disposal of plant litter with a residue of all sorts of hard parts, the litter should be regularly added, otherwise everyone eats, you need to feed shrimp, copperhead, ants, crows, and litter at least once every two weeks.

Technical equipment-ventilation and air circulation system with comp. fans, cooling, good prevention of loss of small inhabitants-slit-less design, lum lighting. lamps commonly. 170W power, 14 hours of daylight.

This terrarium is already the second year, of course, a lot of things have changed, at the moment this option is

I wonder if there are still options to increase the diversity of insects, so that they live normally in such conditions and do not interfere with anyone and do not become food? I tried to settle crickets - it's a nightmare, they sing, and then it's impossible to catch them Locusts are not suitable-they will eat all the plants in a day, grasshoppers-they are also plants that are not averse to eating, except perhaps the rack, so maybe at least the rack will come out.

Wow!!!

Super!

By the way, here are the pictures taken recently, that is, it's been almost exactly a year now
Zherlyanka and lake frog were added from the population. And the most interesting thing is that I practically do not feed all amphibians, and they look great! So I only feed the copperhead, give seeds to the ants, and periodically put the chopped leaves of herbs on the ground as a shelter for all soil animals. The old drinker became swampy, overgrown with sedge and fern, so I made a new one, with a capacity of approx. 30 liters, where many ratsenias grow, lake frog, zherlyanka, pluckers, sticklebacks, shrimps, and many different shellfish live.

The plant composition changes of course, but some species grow steadily, and not only tropical, but also our local ones, for example, fern, asparagus, some cereals, stonecrop. In general, all this is very interesting and perfectly exists, and is suitable for various observations of animals, especially in winter times

Pictures:

fw1.jpg — (973к)


fw2.jpg — (919.55к)


fw4.jpg — (693.19к)


fw3.jpg — (914.66к)

Yes, it will take time for the plants to take root.by the way, here is a question-and on what site can you find any atlas of tropical butterflies and on what plants do their caterpillars feed?well, something like that.in Russian?do you have a link?

Why shouldn't it be? There is of course! http://mybutterfly.ru/

Hierophis, how are your runners doing?
For a change, you can add beetles for the dry zone-black-bodied, omnivores live a long time. They lived with me with the bird-eaters, as utilizers.

BO, oh, I looked, the runners lived a season, then for some reason they had years and the next season they disappeared. In such conditions, reapers, lasiuses, camponotuses still live well. Runners probably need more or less dryness and warmth.

And I will launch insects as soon as it gets warmer. And then even the woodlice are almost gone-all devoured

This is what the terrarium looks like now

Krasoten!
I think the runners couldn't compete with the Messors and Lazuites. They mainly specialize in dead insects . And the climate is a bit humid. From goosebumps like moisture mimriki.

and where are the residents? Not visible!

Just take a closer look

An exemplary terrarium , but it's not an ecosystem at all.

An exemplary terrarium , but it's not an ecosystem at all.

Well, I do not pretend to call my terr an ecosystem in full rights
But.. what is an ecosystem? And how close are the conditions in this terrarium to it? After all, in fact, this terrarium is even a set of" ecosystems", in the terrarium there are three zones with different parameters. This is a "drinking bowl" and a swamp with it, a wet area and a dry one, respectively, certain types of plants grow there that do not go beyond these boundaries.
In fact, in a terrarium there is a reservoir, a section of swampy soil, a section with high soil humidity and relatively dry, this is achieved due to uneven watering of these areas.
There are reducers and producers, even soil formation occurs, the ground level for the entire existence of this terra has probably risen by 3-4cm!

As for the inhabitants of this terrarium, I can boast of the following facts - the green toad cubs were able to grow up on their own in this terrarium from recently metamorphosing to individuals of about 3 cm in size! In addition to them, self-sufficient in the terrarium live croaks and zherlyanki.
In the terrarium there are breeding populations of woodlice, earthworms, geophiles, boneflies..
But sometimes I put some grasshoppers in there, but that's rare.
You only need to feed the copperhead regularly, feed the ants, and feed the pluckers in the drinking bowl...

And another thing I liked - the local fern in the terrarium reproduces sexually, while the spores fall into the drinking bowl in the swamp, and sprouts regularly grow there!

So this whole idea is quite stable, and very interesting


This is what a plot of soil looks like today, with about 12 species of land plants growing there, both locally and tropical.

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[attachmentid()=149337] [attachmentid()=149339]


But this is what the drinking bowl looks like, there you can see different "aquarium" plants, a zherlyanok, a copper copperhead that has crawled to get drunk on the fuss, sprouting fern sprouts..


[attachmentid()=149340] [attachmentid()=149342]
[attachmentid()=149344]

So it is so, of course, and if sealed and not cared for, how many hours or days will it last on one light and water? In this sense, it is not an ecosystem. But otherwise, I really like it, I would like to make such a corner myself.

ps. Here is a tragic scenario that can happen after sealing... Some plants do not have enough light, they stretch and will soon die. If you add light, it will overheat. A set of animals and plants that are convenient for keeping does not form a system, because it is not trofically closed. A mixture of tropical and local plants does not form a system, because there is no other relationship between them than the struggle for resources, there is no symbiosis, for example. Inevitably, native species will die, but greenhouse ones will remain. If you do not feed the millet, it will die; In a closed eco-system, this will lead to a decrease in the level of carbon dioxide. If something depended on this contribution, then the weak link of producers will die. With the death of plants and animals in the drinker, eutrophic processes will begin and the water will bloom, then waterlogging and bacterial slush,
etc. etc
. I.e., there will be a succession of eco-systems towards the swamp from one edge, and from the other it will simply become moldy.

This post was edited by Seneka - 30.07.2012 22: 27

Seneka, I think you confuse the ecosystem with the biosphere, the fact is that in nature ecosystems are never closed.
An ecosystem is essentially a community of living organisms that live in a relatively homogeneous space, such as a forest ecosystem there.

Here you have calculated a tragic scenario on the topic of what will happen if everything is sealed and nothing is done, that is, in fact, to make a whole biosphere out of it(as on Earth, where only sunlight enters the Earth's biosphere).

But it seems to me that not everything is so simple, there are no forecasts of who will die when, I just don't feed the zherlyanok, they feed on woodlice and all other animals, and this animal in turn feeds on dead ratseniyami, here it is also necessary to occasionally throw up dry grass.
However, no doubt large animals will die sometime, that's just why this will lead to a decrease in CO2, on the contrary, to an increase, since the bulk of CO2 is released during decomposition.
In addition, the terrarium has a large layer of soil, there are a lot of reducers, at the moment the dead amphibian decomposes(eats) there for three days without a trace, not even zavanivaetsya. Tested experimentally. So there will be no long-term chemical decomposition there, most of the organic matter will be eaten, and only a little will undergo chemical decomposition.
Yes, only the fact that there are just huge anthills - something and it means that everything that died there will be immediately disposed of. Even a snake crawling out there is eaten in 3-5 days.

Although, I read the first message of the topic again - it looks like the author wanted to make a biosphere, since he set such requirements. Although, with such conditions - only a few months, you can do a lot of things.
A few months isn't even a full life cycle for most arthropods! And even more so for plants.

For five years now, it has been completely sealed, only with external lighting-yes, it would be interesting