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Red Data Book and Orthoptera

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26.01.2016 20:22, ИНО

Well, then it's an idea to strive for its implementation, not paying attention to what someone has done through... on the contrary.

26.01.2016 22:03, Кархарот

There just wasn't enough time for the ideal. And electricity. But I did it in such a way that it would not be crowded afterwards. Did. Don't be ashamed. In general, I am generally satisfied with the result. But I will not undertake such work again for anything in the world.
Likes: 1

27.01.2016 0:24, Hierophis

It is worth saying that although this is in principle, "occupation unity"smile.gif, nevertheless, in fact, everything is quite cool.
I really liked that at last the real and modern reasons for threats are indicated-harassment, jeeping, types of agricultural activities, that is-the truth and not sad like "trapping by collectors" in the entomological part, of course, from the ethical side, trapping is bad, but as a real threat to the population in the case of insects-heresy in 90% of cases, and even in 99%.

Almost everywhere - good pictures. Although it's scary to estimate how much it will cost in print ))

Texts here and there amused, an article about the two-point stiza - instead of writing - "data on this species are unknown" or something like that, it says something like "other species of this genus have burrows of such a depth" and in this spirit - a clever approach)

27.01.2016 1:08, okoem

"Collectors' trapping " is still available in some places: empusa, two types of carabus, peacock-eye, oleander hawkmoth, catocala fraxini.
Likes: 1

27.01.2016 1:33, Hierophis

"Collectors' trapping " is still available in some places: empusa, two types of carabus, peacock-eye, oleander hawkmoth, catocala fraxini.

Well, then I was wrong, because this is a complete heresy. Especially in such a sporadic form, then they would have already written for everyone umnik.gifNow I specially looked at our CCU, and was pleasantly surprised, I didn't notice this anywhere among the listed species and others, except for the apollo, but this particular species can probably really suffer from catching, although we have nowhere to hide it.
And so, I remember that in some of the RF CC I actually saw this picture like "catching" as a limiting fatcore for almost every butterfly weep.gif

27.01.2016 2:02, ИНО

To me, the KK of plants is more injured, the coverage of systematic groups is more uniform. 100500 species of orchids - it's cool, just some Africa. Pan Stepovoi and his two (not even his own, but the Kherson ones) probably got one. But the hobblers, apparently, repeated the fate of bats - they recorded them in the" rare species " all together indiscriminately. Although the same malicious hair in the Crimean steppe is a lot of darkness. It generally applies to all anthrapogenic factors, except plowing, stands, like a tin soldier.

27.01.2016 2:16, Hierophis

Ezox again ixpertit, in the Kherson desert I found about 6 species of orchids, well, there are a couple of controversial ones, they say that these are varieties of the same species, but in general there are 10 of them in my opinion weep.gif
How many orchids did Ezox find?

The fact that there are a lot of orchids in the Crimea is already clear.
But the marsh turtle, the multi-colored foot-and-mouth lizard and even the nimble lizard, and even the rock lizard in the KK is also a kind of record umnik.gifAlmost all reptiles in the KK, only the snakes and the Crimean lizard probably escaped this fate smile.gif

27.01.2016 17:02, Кархарот

I don't know about butterflies, but with the carabus scabrosus not everything is so simple, it is really collected for money by mass hunting and subsequent delivery to the fair.

Is there a list of these orchids of the Kherson desert?

By the way, there is no rock lizard there, and the swift lizard is only an endemic subspecies.

27.01.2016 18:09, Hierophis

Well, to objectively establish how this affects the population, whether this collection is a significant factor, at least comparable to the natural decline. Yes, and I think that not only it is caught, but also a lot of butterflies and beetles.

I think there is a list, I can ask, because there are two national parks and a nature reserve, there should be lists, though )))

But I think I saw a rock lizard.. About the subspecies, too, is not entirely clear, if we are talking about the entire Crimean population, then it's crazy, if about a local or isolated subspecies, then also smile.gifby the way, somehow earlier we did not have subspecies in the CC, and under the USSR, as far as I remember, too.

27.01.2016 19:13, Hierophis

I read about the lizard, it turns out that this is about the same as the subspecies of the steppe viper. It is certainly interesting to read the diagnosis of this subspecies, what are the differences wink.gifthere

27.01.2016 21:31, ИНО

27.01.2016 23:46, Кархарот

Well, to objectively establish how this affects the population, whether this collection is a significant factor, at least comparable to the natural decline. Yes, and I think that not only it is caught, but also a lot of butterflies and beetles.

Maybe. But it is for this type that "special orders" are received.
But I think I saw a rock lizard..

It's strange that I didn't see it.
About the subspecies is also not entirely clear, if we are talking about the entire Crimean population, then it's fucked up, if about a local or isolated subspecies, then too smile.gif

This is a subspecies that inhabits mountains. On the plain there is a different subspecies, there are only two of them in the Crimea
By the way, once before we had no subspecies in the CC, and under the USSR, as far as I remember, too.

In the USSR, I don't know, but in/in Ukraine, the law on CC stipulates that it includes species of animals, plants and fungi. In the Russian Federation, this wording differs: objects of the plant and animal world (species, subspecies, populations).

This post was edited by Carcharot - 27.01.2016 23: 48

27.01.2016 23:50, Кархарот

I read about the lizard, it turns out that this is about the same as the subspecies of the steppe viper. It is certainly interesting to read the diagnosis of this subspecies, what are the differences there wink.gif

I do not know the diagnosis, but there are references to the literature, and its list at the end. I think it's the journal of Modern Herpetology." And in a recent article in Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution, its independence is confirmed genetically.

27.01.2016 23:59, Кархарот

I've only seen two of Pan's pictures. And how many are there in the list - this is the tenth question. We have, for example, even a Venus slipper listed, but no one has been able to find it for decades. And now, in general, in those places, probably, a shoe can only be lost, and together with the foot, on a mine. Here in Carcharot, all the species are photographed, and not in a dusty herbarium, but in nature, which clearly proves that they are still there.

No, well, there may be 5 species completely, as in the steppe Crimea. It's just that earlier some of our species were "divided" into two: Orchis picta and Orchis morio (Anacamptis morio subsp. picta and Anacamptis morio subsp. morio) - both do not grow there, instead Anacamptis morio subsp. caucasica grows; Orchis palustris and Orchis laxiflora (Anacamptis laxiflora subsp. palustris and Anacamptis laxiflora subsp. laxiflora) - both do not grow there, instead Anacamptis laxiflora subsp. elegans; Orchis fragrans и Orchis coriophora (Anacamptis coriophora subsp. fragrans and Anacamptis coriophora subsp. coriophora) - we have only the second of them. You can read about this in the attached article and in my article in the Journal Europäischer Orchideen. So if there are two types from each pair in the lists somewhere, you need to combine them.

File/s:



download file ___________________2014________________Anacamtis__Neotinea___Orchis....pdf

size: 2.54 mb
number of downloads: 494






28.01.2016 1:19, Hierophis

  

In the USSR, I don't know, but in/in Ukraine, the law on CC stipulates that it includes species of animals, plants and fungi. In the Russian Federation, this wording differs: objects of the plant and animal world (species, subspecies, populations).


Cool wordingsmile.gif, especially about populations, gives ample opportunities to add anything to the regional CC wink.gifIf there is an isolated population of a species, for example, on an island in a river, then why not add it as a population with the prospect of speciation ))))

So, about orchids, here's the list I made for the CCU. These are the types that are marked in this region, mainly Kinburn of course, since where I get along, no one put any points because probably no one climbs in such a tin)) But nevertheless, such species can grow there wherever there are peat "oases" among the sands and along the edges of floodplain forests.

Neottia nidus-avis
Orchis militaris
Dactylorhiza incarnata
Epipactis palustris
Neotinea ustulata
Anacamptis coriophora
Anacamptis palustris
Anacamptis fragrans
Anacamptis morio
Anacamptis picta
Anacamptis laxiflora

Still, yes, I see that there are "controversial" types there, however, this is a list from the CCU, which means it is valid within our borders.

28.01.2016 3:57, Кархарот

Populations are usually not included in the regional CC, but only in the federal one.

So, about orchids, here's the list I made for the CCU.

No, well, it's not serious, according to the CCU. There's too much messed up.
Do you have Neotinea ustulata growing? This can't be happening. Where does Orchis militaris come from?

Still, yes, I see that there are "controversial" types there, however, this is a list from the CCU, which means it is valid within our borders.

Is it like this? I have already said about anacamptiss, there are three types of them in the south of Ukraine, not six. The closest picta grows in France, fragrans in Transcaucasia, palustris in the Baltic States, and nominative subspecies morio and laxiflora in the Carpathians.

28.01.2016 3:59, Кархарот

Don't you have Platanthera growing?

28.01.2016 10:49, Penzyak

Of course, I love orchids and collected a lot of them in the software (by the way, there is a curious pattern-Penza entomologists also found a lot of rare and new orchids for the region) , but still, this is not a "Plantarium".
Let's go back to our "sheep" that is, insects and other animals from the new edition of the Crimean CC. Yesterday, fortunately, the students have not yet come to study, I spent half a day studying the Volume "Animals". Comments that immediately caught my eye as a person (as they say, "who ate more than one kilogram of dust" in the literature), in particular on the QC topic, and caused the following logical questions:
1. Why do essays contain references to literature, but the text of the essay itself does not contain references to them!?? By the way, some other regional Criminal Codes of the Russian Federation are also guilty of this (the reason, alas, is unknown and surprising!??).
2. Give the names of plants - and where is their Latin?
3. The essays had to be "thoroughly" proofread-and first of all by literary editors who owned the "great and mighty" (for birds, some moments caused just laughter).
4. Again, why were they not allowed to read essays to their entomologist colleagues in the Russian Federation - essays would undoubtedly benefit from this!?? I've been saying for a long time that no matter how big a specialist writes a text, just give it to a competent reader for reading, sometimes, as they say, "the eye gets blurry" and you get downright "annoying bloopers".
5. Mapping essays with squares / circles looks kind of strange - some of these clearly / clearly erroneous points are frankly puzzling...
6. Ornithologists of course (as in other things and in many regional CC RF !??) "ahead of the whole planet" - well, okay, the circles still have their own colors, so no, they invent their very controversial categories of rarity (!?). What causes only legitimate confusion and questions - and all you need to clearly say in their specific essays: settled, flying or nesting.
7." Single " names of taxa - in some specific essays of insects (for example, pigeons) caused some confusion not only for me, but also perplexity (especially caught my eye) among my colleagues in the Department of Zoology... This is certainly a popular science publication, but not so "simplified" in the end... The name of the insect should display the generic and specific names, for example, "Golubyanka Orion". And subspecies, if any, should be indicated here in the essay itself and clearly according to the zool code. nomenclature - not in the name of the taxon, so as not to confuse and cause discrepancies among the general reader.
8. In the titles of essays - why do detachments and families go in a solid line with hyphenation marks? What was easier and more correct to put them from a new line...
* And a number of others, sorry I didn't take notes from memory... Of course, when they rush with such a publication "from above" and their spoon "special" was made by the "somostin-independent" Slavs brothers, here as they say "not up to fat".
BUT the overall impression of your work is good and extremely positive!! Keep it up ! There is time until the next edition to take into account the comments and correct obvious errors - as they say, they are not made only by those who do nothing!!!

This post was edited by Penzyak - 28.01.2016 11: 21
Likes: 1

28.01.2016 11:20, Hierophis

 
No, well, it's not serious, according to the CCU. There's too much messed up.
Do you have Neotinea ustulata growing? This can't be happening. Where does Orchis militaris come from?


Of course, not seriously, but when I typed in Google Academy different versions in different languages "orchids of the Kinburn spit", I got a cookie! )) Even on the Internet, heaps of articles are enticing on "field of orchids on Kinburn", and there are no titles anywhere smile.gif
There are some publications of a non-faunal nature where certain species are mentioned.
So say thank you that at least there is such a thing umnik.gif


28.01.2016 11:32, Hierophis

But I will not undertake such work again for anything in the world.

By the way, I wanted to tell you everything, here you are-where is this science of yours ))
Of course, it is much easier and less stressful to write articles that at best will be read by dozens of narrow specialists, and usually they are read only by reviewers, and then, probably, you can not always smile.gifwrite anything in such articles.

And the CC is essentially an applied work, not only will it be read not only by thousands, but by hundreds of thousands of the most diverse people, but it is also a tool, the compilation of which is not a weak responsibility, but also an official position, and in this case - politics, this is the applied area of towers from ivory" where you can write anything, everything is lazy in practice will not be applied )))

Although of course, the officiousness of such treatises is a big minus, you probably have to follow well-established stereotypes and "party lines" in terms of environmental protection, enter clearly left-wing species, here is a giant scolia and swallowtail all the same, although you can look at the distribution map-so you can safely fill in the whole geography with dots, and even go over the sea - after all, they are there , navyarnyak fly by )))))
And there is no karakurt, although it is a very rare species wink.gif

28.01.2016 11:33, Лавр Большаков

So far, I've had a quick look at "Animals" and especially butterflies. Overall, I liked it. It is not clear why there is a swallowtail, with a solid range.

28.01.2016 11:50, Penzyak

I wonder if I've ever wondered if it's possible to protect a type of animal (well, for example, the same karakurt) that is potentially dangerous to human health and life. It's just that as far as I remember, in school "scientific" works it is strictly forbidden to "study" a potentially dangerous animal species for humans (a poisonous one for sure).

* It is very controversial to protect the swallowtail in the Crimea (as well as in other regions of the Russian Federation), especially if carrots and dill are indicated as food plants for caterpillars. What then happens logically - vegetable gardens and homesteads need to be declared protected areas?

This post was edited by Penzyak - 28.01.2016 11: 55

28.01.2016 12:12, Hierophis

Well, a person is protected by the whole criminal code, and this despite the fact that it is quite "a type of animal that is potentially dangerous to human health and life."
And then some karakurt..
Karakurt should already be in all KCS for a long time, given its locality and small number and confined to virgin areas umnik.gif

28.01.2016 13:27, Penzyak

In the south of the Volga region, Karakurt has long been a "horror story" of the West Nile fever type and, accordingly, no one will ever protect this type of spider here! I collected information on human spider bites in the Volga region-the statistics are depressing, the increase in cases and the growth of severe consequences from bites and not even in protected areas (or protected areas).

You will also recall the recent publications in the Steppe Bulletin about the urgent need to protect the gray wolf
http://savesteppe.org/ru/archives/10462

Wolf in the steppe zone of Ukraine: is peaceful coexistence with humans possible?

M. Shkvyrya (Institute of Zoology, Kiev), I. Parnikoza (DOP "Green Future", Kiev), V. Boreyko (KECC, Kiev)

28.01.2016 13:33, ИНО

28.01.2016 13:43, Victor Titov

Speaking of the Amur tiger, this is also not a species, but a subspecies, so the protection of subspecies distinguishes the Russian law on CC from the Ukrainian one. The main thing is that the subspecies are real and not concocted by another description.

The tiger is included in the IUCN Red List and the list of threatened species and is subject to protection everywhere as a species, and, consequently, all its subspecies. Therefore, the Amur tiger as an example of protection not of the species as a whole, but only of individual subspecies, is not successful.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 28.01.2016 13: 51

28.01.2016 14:05, ИНО

Nevertheless, the Amur tiger is much more threatened than the Bengal tiger. Similarly, the status of the Far Eastern leopard is simply incomparable to that of the nominative subspecies. In principle, there is no need to include these two animals as subspecies in the Russian Tax Code, since other subspecies are not found on the territory of the country. But if we did, it would be quite rational. So I'm all for protecting subspecies. And individual isolated populations (often separated by hundreds or even thousands of kilometers from the main part of the range) are also quite worthy of protection. So the CCU definitely loses in this regard.

28.01.2016 14:56, Victor Titov

Nevertheless, the Amur tiger is much more threatened than the Bengal tiger...
"...but practically the same as Sumatran and significantly less than South China (Chinese)..." The tiger species (Panthera tigris) is listed as endangered in CITES Appendix I. All. Point. Consequently, all tiger subspecies are subject to mandatory and equivalent protection everywhere. By the way, for comparison: one of the lion subspecies included in Appendix I of CITES is the Indian lion (Panthera leo persica).

28.01.2016 15:28, AGG

I wonder if I've ever wondered if it's possible to protect a type of animal (well, for example, the same karakurt) that is potentially dangerous to human health and life. It's just that as far as I remember, in school "scientific" works it is strictly forbidden to "study" a potentially dangerous animal species for humans (a poisonous one for sure).

* It is very controversial to protect the swallowtail in the Crimea (as well as in other regions of the Russian Federation), especially if carrots and dill are indicated as food plants for caterpillars. What then happens logically - vegetable gardens and homesteads need to be declared protected areas?

Sanych, you're like a child, sometimes...
"vipers in the trash?" so? she might even bite!
- fucking swallowtail-there is legislation of the Russian Federation and there are a lot of subordinate acts, why shake the air on the forum? go to the committee / ministry and solve the issue there! THERE's nothing that gives a shit about all your / our conclusions under the baseboard, THEY don't even know what you/we are ! and about the swallowtail, and even more so have not heard wink.gifof kk money given-reported - and do not clog your consciousness

28.01.2016 15:53, Penzyak

Roman, you never cease to amaze me...
- do not distort, I have never advocated the removal of vipers from the regional CC (for the Russian Federation, only the city of stepnaya from the EC is rational). Compare the statistics of the EC of the Russian Federation how many vipers and the same spiders bite, the bites of the same karakurt are incomparably more harmful than an ordinary viper for a person (our students offered their hands to bite vipers on a bet - but only Pavel Iustinovich voluntarily put his finger to karakurt for his experiment on cauterization of a karakurt bite).

According to the swallowtail, the fact that it remained in the appendix to the CC of the Russian Federation, 2001, has long been clear and understandable to everyone. Something to shake the air for nothing??? And if someone, when writing a regional CC, goes along with the shtetl mossy faunists who think in categories of the 60-70 years of the last century, who are not only not up to date with events, but also often a few who have fallen into insanity. Then it's just your problems and no one else-do not confuse "God's gift with scrambled eggs"!

In the planned new Tax Code of the Russian Federation, animals will not only be protected by subspecies, but even populations living in a particular river are discussed for fish, for example, sterlet in the Sura River basin, etc., etc.

This post was edited by Penzyak - 28.01.2016 16: 31

28.01.2016 16:13, Hierophis

I wonder where such fears about karakurts come from? Is there a single documented case of death from a bite? I once searched medical sources and couldn't find out where these figures for 5-20-80% of deaths come from. Or a situation such as with vipers for which deaths after their bites are unique, one in a century.

Reports on karakurt bites are plentiful on foreign forums, and no one died, despite the fact that most did not go for help. And the effect of the poison lasts 1-2 hours, then everything passes.

We regularly register a dozen or even more bites, including children - the result is one - "a week in intensive care", this should scare, but in fact, people are simply "forced" to go to the hospital and "treated" just for show, when everything has long passed, and usually"it was still at home or on the street, because everything starts right after the bite and passes quickly, it's over if the person isn't Hanukkah or something smile.gif

And one child, as I remember, even wanted to cut out appendicitis, and they cut it out more than once - the symptoms are similar, since in our case there was someone competent, they probably waited a couple of hours and everything passed, they did tests - no appendicitis.

28.01.2016 16:18, AVA

  
In principle, there is no need to include these two animals as subspecies in the Russian Tax Code, since other subspecies are not found on the territory of the country. But if we did, it would be quite rational. ...


We've met before and, God forbid, we'll meet again. Now we are working on the reintroduction of the Caucasian leopard.

28.01.2016 16:24, Penzyak

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%...%83%D1%80%D1%82

28.01.2016 16:41, Hierophis

  https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%...%83%D1%80%D1%82

Well, where are the authoritative sources, like this, cheli? smile.gif lol.gif

28.01.2016 17:01, AVA

  https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%...%83%D1%80%D1%82


For information , the North American "black widow" and " our " karakurt are different species, respectively, Latrodectus mactans (Fabricius, 1775) and Latrodectus tredecimguttatus (Rossi, 1790). Although they belong to the same genus from the family Theridiidae.

28.01.2016 19:33, ИНО

What's the point? The tiger species (Panthera tigris) is listed as endangered in CITES Appendix I. All. Point.

Just like in Natalie's song. What kind of letter-reading is this?

28.01.2016 19:45, Hierophis

  
Pan Stepovoi, aka Hierophis.

Ezox, have you eaten too much whiteness and too much henbane? lol.gif
Where and what do I argue with? drink less umnik.gif

28.01.2016 19:52, ИНО

And Pan should, on the contrary, drink more-drugs to improve memory.

28.01.2016 20:00, Hierophis

Well? With what or with whom do I argue in this wordings? Or do I have something against it?
You're the one with your saber toothed tigers running around umnik.gif
So quickly go to the store, buy aminazine user posted image

28.01.2016 20:33, ИНО

Ah, it was Pan who did not dispute the idea of including populations in the CC with such words, but praised it...

Judging by the last emoticon, Pan again showed anal fixation.

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