Genus Aricia, boundaries of agestis and artaxerxes species

B. V. Stradomsky's book "Pigeons of the subfamily Polyommatinae of European Russia, Central and Western Caucasus"comes to mind.
As for the diagnostic features of coloration, I came across instances of artaxerxes with rows of orange marginal spots on top like agestis.
Also, agestis is a more xerophilic species than artaxerxes.

Zhenya, you probably read my mind I just put my aricii to soak yesterday. Selected the most allous-like agestis from the steppes, and the most agestis-like allous (?) from the mountainous Crimea. I'll straighten it out and try to compare it in series.
In addition to the color features, I can say that Crimean butterflies differ in the size and shape of their wings. Typically colored specimens. allows are noticeably larger and have elongated wings.

B. V. Stradomsky's book "Pigeons of the subfamily Polyommatinae of European Russia, Central and Western Caucasus"comes to mind.

In this book, the difference is that agestis has a brown underwing background, while Artaxerxes has a gray background of various shades. This seems overly simplistic to me. There is a photo of the male's genitals. Some differences are visible, but how diagnostic are they? This is not mentioned in the text.

As for the diagnostic features of coloration, I came across instances of artaxerxes with rows of orange marginal spots on top like agestis.

And how do you know that this is Artaxerxes?

I just put my aricii to soak yesterday. Selected the most allous-like agestis from the steppes, and the most agestis-like allous (?) from the mountainous Crimea. I'll straighten it out and try to compare it in series.

It will be good! When you're done, announce the results.

I've decided to conduct a public survey before cooking a couple of my own copies.

I put the work of English and Scandinavian colleagues in the topic "Scans of books with entomological themes". Anyone interested can see how serious this case is.

In this book, the difference is that agestis has a brown underwing background, while Artaxerxes has a gray background of various shades. This seems overly simplistic to me. There is a photo of the male's genitals. Some differences are visible, but how diagnostic are they? This is not mentioned in the text.

And how do you know that this is Artaxerxes?

Yes, I'm probably not 100% sure (only 99%), I've never specifically dealt with this problem. In terms of habit, these specimens still look more like artaxerxes, and true artaxerxes fly in the same biotopes (and agestis does not occur with them together). It can be assumed that agestis is an ecological form of artaxerxes (joke)

in addition, true artaxerxes fly in the same biotopes

Bringing the matter to its logical conclusion (and some absurdity ), we can also ask: what are the "true Artaxerxes"?

By the way, in what biotope do they occur, and how many generations?

It can be assumed that agestis is an ecological form of artaxerxes (joke)

Or vice versa. In every joke, as you know, there is a share of jokes... Here, in an English-Scandinavian article, the authors analyze populations in northwestern Europe by some molecular and morphological characteristics and quite successfully package them into two types. However, some populations in England do not fit well anywhere. The authors, of course, write that more research is needed , and that it is possible that these populations are hybrid in nature.

FYI, I'll write more about our aricii. I am following one of the populations near Kharkiv in detail. So, this population is at least bivoltine. It lives in the mesophilic biotope, in the floodplain of the river. It develops on geraniums (right next to eumedones). It looks more like Artaxerxes allous than Agestis. However, rather it is something in between. Photos can be viewed here: http://kharkovbut.narod.ru/allous.html

Bringing the matter to its logical conclusion (and some absurdity ), we can also ask: what are the "true Artaxerxes"?

By the way, in what biotope do they occur, and how many generations?

Or vice versa. In every joke, as you know, there is a share of jokes... Here, in an English-Scandinavian article, the authors analyze populations in northwestern Europe by some molecular and morphological characteristics and quite successfully package them into two types. However, some populations in England do not fit well anywhere. The authors, of course, write that more research is needed , and that it is possible that these populations are hybrid in nature.

Yes, yes, I have already read the article, only now I have thought about the whole depth of the agestis - artaxerxes problem
I caught butterflies with this phenotype in a wet meadow in the Prioksko-Terrasny Nature Reserve (near the village). Springs), one generation flies there (I caught it in June).
"True Artaxerxes" - having a normal phenotype: with a grayish underparts, little or no orange marginal spots, fly on mesophytic or hygrophytic meadows (I can't say anything about genitals because I've never looked).

FYI, I'll write more about our aricii. I am following one of the populations near Kharkiv in detail. So, this population is at least bivoltine. It lives in the mesophilic biotope, in the floodplain of the river. It develops on geraniums (right next to eumedones). It looks more like Artaxerxes allous than Agestis. However, rather it is something in between. Photos can be viewed here: http://kharkovbut.narod.ru/allous.html

I'm in MO in Ramenskoye district-not for quite a long time I observe the population, a mesophytic meadow, also on geraniums, but the phenotype is completely different, there is almost no orange on top. As for the timing of the summer , it's probably an extended monovoltaic generation or a bivoltine generation with an incomplete second one (in this case, the generations overlap).

agestis has a brown underwing background, while Artaxerxes has gray in various shades.

Agestis from the steppe Crimea in the spring generation have a gray background of the underparts, and summer-brownish. If you follow this feature, the spring generation of agestis should be attributed to allous

I will certainly report the results of comparing the series

Could you post pictures of your genitals (when you're done)?

Agestis from the steppe Crimea in the spring generation have a gray background of the underparts, and summer-brownish. If you follow this feature, the spring generation of agestis should be attributed to allous

Exactly. If only it were that simple! (However, then it wouldn't be so interesting... )

Could you post pictures of your genitals (when you're done)?

I'll cook it and lay it out.

I can say the same about agestis and the color of their underwear.
it can be brown, and it can also be gray. I came across different ones. so for a long time I doubted about some copies. In the end, it turned out that I didn't have any allows. also, agestis sometimes have specimens with slightly pronounced orange spots, when the spots on the upper wings are almost invisible, and on the hind wings it is weak. Nevertheless, the Agestis were never completely without orange.

In the end, it turned out that I didn't have any allows.

And how is it "in the end it turned out"? What were the signs used to determine this? (Who's talking about what, but lousy is all about the bathhouse... )

by series, by red holes, by places, etc. I can't say for sure now - for the time being I straightened out more than I defined, I forgot many of the accuracy

Please come to the table... don't shoot the cook - he cooked as well as he could.

August 2, 2008, roc. Kharkiv Region

Pictures:

Aricia_sp.__m___8_02_2008__Kharkov__Zh___2_DSC02034_1.JPG — (94.06к)


Aricia_sp.__m___8_02_2008__Kharkov__Zh___2_DSC02047_1.JPG — (147.01 k)


Aricia_sp.__m___8_02_2008__Kharkov__Zh___2_b_1.JPG — (114.87к)


Aricia_sp.__m___8_02_2008__Kharkov__Zh___2_f_1.JPG — (108.34к)

July 29, 2008, Kharkiv region, Zmiyiv district

Pictures:

Aricia_sp.__m___7_29_2008__Kh__Zm___2_DSC02036_1.JPG — (90.51к)


Aricia_sp.__m___7_29_2008__Kh__Zm___2_DSC02057_1.JPG — (140.85к)


Aricia_sp.__m___7_29_2008__Kh__Zm___2_a_1.JPG — (94.76к)

Now the question is: is it possible to determine anything from all this? IMHO, the genitals look pretty identical (modulo clumsy dissection... )

Also: Pavel Gorbunov's book says that agestis has a WIDER valva, and this is confirmed by the corresponding drawings. Boris Stradomsky's book doesn't say anything about genitals, but there are photos, and there Valva agestis, on the contrary, is clearly ALREADY there. I'd like to explain it... Maybe dear authors will express an authoritative opinion?

Genital signs in agestis/artaxerxes do not work. The width of the valva in this case is a very unstable trait (and indeed in relation to pigeons-look at the photo in relation to the P. icarus group).
For agestis/artaxerxes, there are not even any genetic differences (according to the mt-DNA marker of cytochrome oxidase I-data from the dissertation work of Martin Wiemers).
So it is possible that these are really only ecological forms of the same species, like M. alcon and M. rebeli.
Pigeons are generally characterized by the highest morphological plasticity and dependence on development conditions (forage plant, temperature, etc. - see what happens for P. icadius if one half of the offspring from the same female is fed in its homeland, and the other half is lowered from the mountains and fed on Lotus and kept at +35-40 degrees.

Pictures:

Aricia.jpg — (133.56к)


_______icarus_group.jpg — (140.88к)


Aricia_COI_1.jpg — (70.6к)


Aricia_COI_2.jpg — (70.04к)


icadius__Astr_Lotus.jpg — (139.23к)

The morphology of agestis / artaxerxes also has no clear boundaries. It is believed that the highlands of the Caucasus are inhabited only by artaxerxes. Here are photos of specimens from 2600 m (Karachay-Cherkessia, khr. Moussa-Achitara) from one point. Both specimens have, like the nominate subspecies from Scotland, white scales around the discal spot. At the same time, look at the orange holes. In addition, transitional forms also fly there.

This post was edited by bora - 07.02.2009 07: 33

Pictures:

____________016.jpg — (59.11к)


____________018.jpg — (63.08 k)

Series

Pictures:

IMG_1368.jpg — (140.8к)

Boris, thank you very much! As they say, makes sense. In our Kharkiv region, almost the entire line of phenotypes can also be traced in some populations.

I forgot about Wiemersa, once I looked through it a long time ago, but now I forgot that there is not only Agrodiaetus...

Genital signs in agestis/artaxerxes do not work. The width of the valva in this case is a very unstable trait (and indeed in relation to pigeons-look at the photo in relation to the P. icarus group).

I don't understand anything-icadius yes on lotus and astragalus ?
It is also a monophage on chickpeas (Cicer sp.).
Bora, please explain, if possible, how you distinguished these butterflies
from P. icarus ?

About Aricia agestis/artaxerxes ...

In the Caucasus, in the ROC. Both species fly to Kislovodsk. Artaxerxes from an altitude of 1300 meters, agestis in the same place, but more massively at low altitudes. They differ
perfectly, as well as Aricia laid out by Boris.
Bolshakov L. V. points out that in the Tula region diagnosis
is difficult, and butterflies have a transitional phenotype from agestis to artaxerxes
, but also ... the structure of the genitals !!!!
But this is strange. They don't really differ in their genitals.

This post was edited by Olearius - 10.02.2009 07: 39

As far as I understand it, in agestis (at least in comparison with allous of the Middle band), orange spots along the outer edge of the wing feathers not only reach the leading edge, but are also much more square in shape. At least, obviously clear copies from the Moscow region and from the South, which were found in many places in their lifetime, give just such an overall picture. (So, by the way, the Teberd samples posted here generally cause me a vague doubt).

Secondly, your own instance (see http://sungaya.narod.ru/rhop/lyc/Ari_age.htm ) identified without the help of genitals. I assumed that in allous the fringe-mainly on the wing feathers - is dotted (i.e., it has a black color opposite the veins, and white between the veins), and in agestis it is completely different (see the link): solid brown along the outer edge of the forewing and then brightens. In my opinion, Higgins and Riley make just such a key difference. But you can, however, once again look at their atlas.

In addition, according to my copy, the biotope was absolutely unacceptable for allous, the deadline also did not coincide - on that day allous was absent, and in its normal time it never came across in that place. I've met him God knows how many times and how many times in my life, but allous has never been caught in our lane in extremely settled conditions. But on the wet glades of power lines-as much as you want. My own copy. it was taken in the driest steppe area, overgrown with some kind of clover (I think: I know this plant outwardly perfectly, but I don't know the name yet), on which agestis was exactly in the same stations that I came across dozens and hundreds in the Odessa region. By the way, in Moscow I know settled areas with exactly the same (we have a very local) plant. They sometimes come across something that, according to science, is either almost nonexistent in Moscow, or even close to the Moscow region should not and cannot be found.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 02/13/2009 01: 30

As far as I understand it, in agestis (at least in comparison with allous of the Middle band), orange spots along the outer edge of the wing feathers not only reach the leading edge, but are also much more square in shape. At least, obviously clear copies from the Moscow region and from the South, which were found in many places in their lifetime, give just such an overall picture. (So, by the way, the Teberd samples posted here generally cause me a vague doubt).

Secondly, your own instance (see http://sungaya.narod.ru/rhop/lyc/Ari_age.htm) identified without the help of genitals. I assumed that in allous the fringe-mainly on the wing feathers - is dotted (i.e., it has a black color opposite the veins, and white between the veins), and in agestis it is completely different (see the link): solid brown along the outer edge of the forewing and then brightens. In my opinion, Higgins and Riley make just such a key difference. But you can, however, once again look at their atlas.

Yes, indeed, there is such a sign - I saw it in Tolman.

There are many signs... Of course, typical instances differ well, but what about intermediate ones? But what about whole intermediate populations? For me, the question remains: where is the border of species (if there is no answer, then it is difficult to "determine" anything...) If there is such a boundary at all - and from what was discussed earlier, it rather follows that it does not exist...

In addition, according to my copy, the biotope was absolutely unacceptable for allous, the deadline also did not coincide - on that day allous was absent, and in its normal time it never came across in that place. I've met him God knows how many times and how many times in my life, but allous has never been caught in our lane in extremely settled conditions. But on the wet glades of power lines-as much as you want. My own copy. it was taken in the driest steppe area, overgrown with some kind of clover (I think: I know this plant outwardly perfectly, but I don't know the name yet), on which agestis was exactly in the same stations that I came across dozens and hundreds in the Odessa region. By the way, in Moscow I know settled areas with exactly the same (we have a very local) plant. They sometimes come across something that, according to science, is either almost nonexistent in Moscow, or even close to the Moscow region should not and cannot be found.

Here are more specific things:

If possible, please explain: do you only have this one copy from the Moscow Region, or do you have a series? If so, are they all so typical of agestis? Have you ever seen butterflies of the 1st generation?

Also: as far as I understand, in the Moscow region, allous gives one generation, right? Most sources claim that this is how it should be, and even that it is almost certainly so. Our populations (Kharkiv region) are generally closer to allous than to agestis (both in appearance and biotope), but the trouble is that they give at least 2 generations...

Thanks!

There was the first specimen, but at a small distance from the second (which is shown in the figure) and in another biotope (but very close to that biotope), damaged when removed from the net (I did not catch it), now, I think, it is lost forever. The signs match. Allous, such as it is found in our country, was not marked on that day. The first specimen was initially slightly less fresh: it had already flown away (rather, not on this day, since it was taken in the morning when the butterfly fauna first woke up) from the steppe far away to where something was blooming to feed, and the second one in forty minutes or even an hour was taken on the steppe dry grass freshest.

I assume that the population is generally unstable. We haven't met in any of the years before or since. I assume that even if the population lasts for several years, only this generation gives birth, and that agestis cannot hatch earlier in our spring (this is not the case in the south, of course). Here you can steam well in April (but this is not the heat for heat-loving species), and in May you can hardly see either heat or sun. After all, for example, Colias crocea gives two generations in the south without problems, and in the Moscow region - only one, flying out much later than the southern first (probably like the southern second) and sometimes flying almost until September: in 1990, for example, I caught it on August 20; in general, it was caught in July and August, (except in 1995, when everything was much ahead of schedule, and crocea was caught in June, but even this year I don't remember its second generation).

I don't remember the timing of allous, but the first generation somehow flies earlier than my ex. in the picture, and about the second generation of allous-we need to raise both the material and the records. As a keepsake , it seems that there was only a super-large amount of small things, as well as for eumedon, dispar, teleius. In the mass, we have supernumerary pigeons, in my opinion, only icarus and argus. If I find out more about allous, I'll let you know later.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 02/13/2009 02: 15

"For me, the question remains: where is the boundary of species (if there is no answer, then it is difficult to "determine" anything...) If there is such a border at all - and from what was discussed earlier, it rather follows that it does not exist... "

Very logical! If there is no border between two types, then are there two types? At least, as genetics shows , this border, and, accordingly, two species, is just not there, but there are only two ecological forms.

"I don't understand anything-icadius yes on lotus and astragalus?
It is also a monophage on chickpeas (Cicer sp.).
Bora, please explain, if possible, how you distinguished these butterflies
from P. icarus?"

Differences between icadius and icarus are determined genetically: http://eversmannia.entomology.ru/vod_stra.pdf and http://eversmannia.entomology.ru/vod_stra02.pdf
And the question of" monophagy " for the genus Polyommatus is very, very debatable (with the exception of Agrodiaetus).

As for the possible number of generations and timing of summer, I can give examples for other species.

Semiargus-
Near Kharkiv gives two generations, in the Crimea (although this is to the south) - a strictly monovoltaic species.

Callimachus-
Crimean butterflies develop on two forage plants. Butterflies that develop on astragalus come out about two weeks earlier. The same ones that develop on a penny are released two weeks later. I judge by three relatively closely located local areas with a close microclimate. On the first plot only astragalus grows, on the second only kopeechnik, on the third-both plants. Correspondingly, in the first section, fresh Callimachians fly already at the end of March, in the second in mid-April, in the third fresh specimens are found from the end of March to the end of April, while in the first, "astragalus" section at the end of April, Callimachians are already essentially moving away, the last ones remain, heavily flown.

As for the Crimean aryces, the steppe population develops on stork, foothill apparently mainly on sunflowers (there are no sunflowers in the steppes), Yaylinskaya, probably on blood-red geraniums, which are common there. The question arises : is development on a particular forage plant related to appearance and the number of generations?

UPDATE
Completely overlooked. There are sunflowers on Yayla too.

This post was edited by okoem - 02/13/2009 23: 22

"The question arises - is development on a particular food plant related to appearance and the number of generations?"

No doubt it is connected, you have already given specific examples yourself.

I present one of the pictures about the effect of a food plant on Icarus. These butterflies are raised in cages. And in nature, this is also true, but with a time shift for the 2nd generation: a week or two later, small sky-blue Icarus developing on strawberry clover fly en masse. Moreover, the "populations" are not even separated geographically, and one form replaces another in time. Blue ones are then again replaced by large purple individuals of the third generation from licorice. And by autumn, there is a mixture of the third and unknown generations of both forms.

This post was edited by bora - 13.02.2009 10: 18

Pictures:

Polyommatus_icarus_______________.jpg — (115.99к)

No doubt it is connected, you have already given specific examples yourself.

However, for Callimachus, forage only affects the skroks of summer, but not the appearance.
What affects semiargus is not clear at all, maybe the climate is dry, or maybe a different food supply. However, semiargus in the Crimea is a mountain, Yaylinsky butterfly, and there the climate is just very close to Kharkiv. As for food, I do not know it for the Crimean population.
And for aryces, the influence of forage is only assumed, because on yayla the climate (colder and wetter) differs from the steppe and foothill. Therefore, if we assume that the allous found on our yayls is a form of agestis, then it is not clear what the problem is, in the climate, or in the food, or in both (but which is more significant?)

From a principled point of view, what is more significant, I think, is not important. In each particular case, for sure, a complex of factors works. The most important thing in my opinion is that the norm of reaction of morphology and biological features of a species is much wider than is commonly believed, and therefore there are fewer real species. A number of" species "(if we are talking about sympatry) are simply forms "fashioned" by the conditions of a particular biotope, temperature, humidity, food supply, etc.

However, semiargus in the Crimea is a mountain, Yaylinsky butterfly, and there the climate is just very close to Kharkiv. As for food, I do not know it for the Crimean population.

I don't think it's that insanely close. It's been a long time since you've been to Kharkiv in spring and summer. (But I'm willing to assume that the climate on Yayla is closer to us than, say, to the South Coast...)

The food plant for semiargus is red clover (at least).

Many thanks to all the panelists - very interesting!

I don't think it's that insanely close. It's been a long time since you've been to Kharkiv in spring and summer. (But I'm willing to assume that the climate on Yayla is closer to us than, say, to the South Coast...)

Well, maybe not insanely close...
For example, at the beginning of June last year, the night temperature was +6. During the day it was also not hot, I went in a fleece and windbreaker. And such temperatures for June are quite common (although not mandatory).
At the beginning of July, heat, drought, asphalt melts in the city; I go to the shade (on the yale), sit down to rest. After 10-15 minutes, I have to put on a fleece, because I start to freeze.
By the way, Lycaena virgaureae flies on yayls in our country. And in Kharkiv it seems to be a little hot

By the way, Lycaena virgaureae flies on yayls in our country. And in Kharkov it seems a little hot for her

Exactly. Like aglaja, say.

[/quote]
Differences between icadius and icarus are determined genetically: http://eversmannia.entomology.ru/vod_stra.pdf and http://eversmannia.entomology.ru/vod_stra02.pdf
[/quote]
That is, did I understand correctly that exactly those 4 males and
two females who were studied in these works are laid out ?

What about P. elena ?

"That is, did I understand correctly that the 4 males and
two females that were studied in these works are laid out exactly ?"

No, the posted specimens have already been examined further and these data have not yet been published, but they are from the same population (hr.Moussa-Achitara). I tracked the females, collected two eggs from one female (I couldn't do it anymore), and we raised the caterpillars on two different plants in different thermal modes.
I gave links to articles to explain the method. Photos of the examined specimens are given in the articles.

"What about P. elena ?"

P. elena is currently at work.