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Archaeological image of a butterfly from Astrakhan

Community and ForumInsects imagesArchaeological image of a butterfly from Astrakhan

svaal, 05.04.2017 9:18

Good afternoon, gentlemen entomologists!
I have a highly professional question for you on your topic.
In the Astrakhan region (in the floodplain of the Buzan River, "the mouth of the Volga"), an object was accidentally found, probably dating back to the Middle Ages of the 7th-14th century, most likely the 9th century.
What kind of butterfly could it be?
If not in that section-sorry, I didn't understand, toli in the classification is necessary, toli in the image, in general, do not hit hard.
Sincerely,
Archaeologist A. (svaal)

Pictures:
image: _______. jpg
_______.jpg — (77.92к)

Comments

Pages: 1 2

05.04.2017 11:49, Penzyak

It doesn't look very much like a butterfly - most likely some kind of flower (throw the image to the nerds on their website):

http://www.plantarium.ru/

05.04.2017 12:20, svaal

Thank you, Penzyak!
And I asked the nerds.

http://forum.plantarium.ru/viewtopic.php?pid=283999#p283999

05.04.2017 12:44, Alexandr Zhakov

My opinion is that this is the flower of a legume plant: peas, beans, soy, peanuts, etc.
: Legume or Moth
flowers Really look like butterflies. smile.gif

05.04.2017 12:51, Penzyak

Apparently, the image was after all not one - that is, as philologists say, taken out of context... What was there next to it or on what specific object is it depicted???

05.04.2017 12:52, Guest

Thanks to Djon.
And which of them in Astrakhan could grow in the 9th century?

05.04.2017 12:54, Alexandr Zhakov

Thanks to Djon.
And which of them in Astrakhan could grow in the 9th century?

This is for nerds. smile.gif

05.04.2017 13:05, Guest

On the coin,
nerds say iris - I agreed when the 3-D introduced.
No historical artefacts found nearby, pot fragments (already lost, not my fault)

05.04.2017 13:08, Penzyak

... yes, I also first thought iris-butterflies do not have such a configuration of wings... moreover, they tried to draw something in the center and above...

05.04.2017 16:37, ИНО

Djon, Penzyak, are these your jokes? What other toffee from the legume family!? You'd rather see an alien ship there. But seriously: these are clearly images of an insect, and most likely a butterfly (although I can't completely exclude an ascalaf or even a bat, and maybe a little bit from each one), and not necessarily a local one. It was in the Paleolithic period that people painted animals on the walls of caves as close as possible to what they saw in reality, and in the Middle Ages - as they please. And to the question "what kind of butterfly is this", the author of this work would most likely spread his hands and clarify: "are they different?" I would write "stylized butterfly image".

This post was edited by ENO-05.04.2017 16: 37

05.04.2017 19:09, Vorona

In continuation of the theme of medieval images of animals. Here, for example, who is depicted?
user posted image
You can test your intuition here

05.04.2017 19:10, ИНО

Nautilus?

05.04.2017 19:31, Vorona

smile.gif Close, you guessed the type. The class is different.

05.04.2017 20:29, Ilia Ustiantcev

Oh, and I thought it was someone who threw a tablet with Angry Birds in the past...
Likes: 1

05.04.2017 20:32, NIKSTER

Nautilus?

Oh, and I thought it was someone who threw a tablet with Angry Birds in the past...

Evil Nautilus smile.gif

05.04.2017 22:53, Black Coleopter

Good afternoon, gentlemen entomologists!
I have a highly professional question for you on your topic.
In the Astrakhan region (in the floodplain of the Buzan River, "the mouth of the Volga"), an object was accidentally found, probably dating back to the Middle Ages of the 7th-14th century, most likely the 9th century.
What kind of butterfly could it be?
If not in that section-sorry, I didn't understand, toli in the classification is necessary, toli in the image, in general, do not hit hard.
Sincerely,
Archaeologist A. (svaal)

For me, this is a cat with the mandibles of a beetle.
P. S. Psychiatrists to help us!

05.04.2017 22:59, Black Coleopter

Raven: from the real ones, it looks like a kiwi bird.

05.04.2017 23:05, AVA

In continuation of the theme of medieval images of animals. Here, for example, who is depicted?
user posted image
You can test your intuition here

Passed the test (successfully) specifically to find out who it is. It turned out to be an OYSTER!!! However, the ancestors had a fantasy...

06.04.2017 17:40, AVA

... in the Middle Ages-as you please. And to the question "what kind of butterfly is this", the author of this work would most likely spread his hands and clarify: "are they different?" I would write "stylized butterfly image".

But I would still assume that this is a stylized image of a flower. And, most likely, it is iris.
Take a look at stylized medieval heraldic images, such as lilies. They also don't look much like real flowers.

06.04.2017 18:07, Bianor

07.04.2017 0:14, ИНО

Why haven't I seen any irises? They don't have a single head, or two club-shaped antennae, or a jointed brusca, and they don't have four wings either. And in the photo, all this is clearly visible. Yes, the author made a small mistake with the place of attachment of the rear wings, but otherwise, compared to that oyster, naturalism is on top.

07.04.2017 0:50, AVA

  
I flew only with the tiger .

It's simple - the original actually mentions "leopard", not tiger. And leopards in those days were not called snow leopards, but leopards. That's why the beast is spotted.

08.04.2017 23:46, Alex P

It seems to me that the image is definitely not a butterfly. Remember how the butterflies were spread out in the time of C. Linnaeus, and here is the perfect spread of the Middle Ages.Pin just forgot to draw smile.gifPlease Throw a coin close-up obverse and reverse. Entomologists are versatile people, so we are interested and are happy to help other sciences.

09.04.2017 8:40, rhopalocera.com

This is an image of an owl.
Likes: 1

09.04.2017 8:54, Бомка

And I met such a butterfly-
on a wooden idol in the mountain taiga.
Baikal region,
Khamar-Daban village in the vicinity of the railway station Vydrino.
Upper reaches of the Taltsinka River (a tributary of the Snizhnaya River). 23.VI.2006.
picture: 15009.jpg

09.04.2017 14:24, ИНО

11.04.2017 16:14, rhopalocera.com

Or maybe a goblin? smile.gif

Well, here-it's more like a flower, maybe even an iris. Or did the author of the piece say it was a butterfly?



no, it is the owl. I will say more - there were Greek settlements in that area. and the Greeks were very fond of minting owls on their coins

11.04.2017 22:09, Mantispid

Pancake... At first I thought it was a butterfly. Then I started reading the topic and it began to seem like a flower. Now that Stas has written about the owl, I can clearly see the owl's head with ears, holding a mouse in its beak...

11.04.2017 22:11, Alex P

If I remember correctly, Athens minted owls on its coins. Even now, one euro coins in Greece show a coin with an owl. The Greeks had beautiful coins with a high artistic style and this is not clear what and on what. The ceramics are lost, the image is taken out of context, and the impression of the work of a black archaeologist is created. How will you date an item without ceramics?

12.04.2017 6:59, rhopalocera.com

If I remember correctly, Athens minted owls on its coins. Even now, one euro coins in Greece show a coin with an owl. The Greeks had beautiful coins with a high artistic style and this is not clear what and on what. The ceramics are lost, the image is taken out of context, and the impression of the work of a black archaeologist is created. How will you date an item without ceramics?



The problem is that we were only given a part of the coin. If the moenta was complete, but on both sides - it would be much easier.

12.04.2017 11:52, ИНО

13.04.2017 11:15, Penzyak

You can also suggest that this is the head of an ant or ground beetle...

14.04.2017 7:41, svaal

It seems to me that the image is definitely not a butterfly. Remember how the butterflies were spread out in the time of C. Linnaeus, and here is the perfect spread of the Middle Ages.Pin just forgot to draw smile.gifPlease Throw a coin close-up obverse and reverse. Entomologists are versatile people, so we are interested and are happy to help other sciences.


In numismatics, this is also a mystery

who where when - two options:
bullshit - but there are no scientific arguments for such statements.
insistent-resourceful tracks all mixed up so that it is difficult to understand

14.04.2017 7:43, svaal

large, even very large, puck

14.04.2017 11:16, Penzyak

Why do you need to show this image from this angle?
Wouldn't it be easier to turn it over - so you'll have an owl.

14.04.2017 13:22, Bianor

A normal stylized butterfly. Most likely an ordinary peacock's eye. Modern artists, far from entomology, draw in much the same way:

user posted image

14.04.2017 13:31, svaal

Thank you very much to all who answered and spent their time!
I don't think I need any further discussion - I don't have enough time without me.
For myself, I realized that this is IRIS (this is logical, but everything else is not logical, or there are reasons to disagree).
THANK YOU again!

14.04.2017 23:14, Alex P

I will put 99.9 percent that the thing is very modern. I think it was made at the factory pres. Please note that one side is very battered and the other is without signs of wear(the one with the butterfly). Are coins, for example, erased on one side and almost perfect on the other? Yes, and the material without special oxides and in general just a blank that they tried to disguise with frequent blows around the circle traces of a homemade stamp, but they caught small circles.
In general, thanks for the interesting topic turned out.

15.04.2017 5:37, svaal

They bet on the sweepstakes.
If entomologists and botanists have doubts, then numismatists have 20 times more, I collect only 500% of the arguments, and 99.9% is not suitable.
There, the manufacturing method seems to be as follows: casting in a mold with iris, and then stamp-caulking.
There is no such thing that the scuff is different - there they are not scuffed on either side, but they are cleaned with chemicals.
What other Au oxides? Gold does not oxidize.
"Traces of a self-made stamp" - and what else can it be, "made by the holy spirit"?
No one there masked anything in a circle, there the weight was brought up to 10-Byzantine solidi.
I ask you to close the topic, it has never been good when ophthalmologists treat their teeth, and dentists treat their eyes.
Photo deleted, to avoid further debate....

15.04.2017 13:21, ИНО

No matter how you twist that image (at least by 90%), and irises and owls can only appear on it under strong substances. But the butterfly, albeit from an anatomical point of view incorrect, is quite illusory.

PS The iris flower should not be turned in the brain, but in your hands (or you can turn around it with a camera yourself) to understand that it can't look like this from any angle.

This post was edited by INO-04/15/2017 13: 24

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