Who needs entomology today?

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гость N, 23.12.2006 23:48

I came across an interview by accident ( http://www.polit.ru/analytics/2006/04/05/mihailov.html ) a certain Mr. Mikhailov, Chairman of the Moscow Department. REO, the owner of the publishing house, etc., etc. Some of his statements just shocked (I quote):

"- You are an employee of the Zoomuseum and teach at the Biology Department of Moscow State University. Who needs the science of insects today-entomology?
- This is a certain tradition, it exists because there is a person's desire for knowledge. It reflects this aspiration. And everything else can be lied to and blabbed out as advertising. For example, there is military medicine. Rodents carry tularemia, and they need to be combated. Or during the American military operations in Japan, soldiers were sick with tsutsugamushi fever, which is carried by red-bodied mites. In the 40s and 50s, a lot of money was spent on fighting this problem. Now it is not really necessary.
You can, of course, suck several application areas out of your finger. Now, for example, it is necessary for nature protection, for biocenology: we need to know what we are protecting and who we are protecting. If elephants and turtles are more or less clear, then there are a lot of insects, there are millions of species, and you also need to know them, in general. But in my opinion, this is rather an element of advertising. In fact, this is just the traditional desire of people to learn, it does not require a lot of money, and there are not so many of us – just a few. I don't think it's too bad financially.

- Does this mean that only the state can support a science like entomology?
"Well, there are also amateurs. Although-yes, mostly the state. This has always been the case, even under the tsarist regime. Amateurs collect personal collections; they need to use museums to compare their collections with those of the museum. Sometimes they steal collectible insects. Sometimes they give collections to museums. In my opinion, today it is a parallel current. Perhaps it could somehow be combined with the scientific part of entomology, for example, within the framework of the Russian Entomological Society. This society has existed in Russia since the middle of the XIX century, but at present its activities are quite formal, I would like to somehow change this situation."

I started to find out, and it turned out that he was a taxonomist on spiders (arachnologist). Apparently, as an entomologist in a broad sense, he is not very competent (after all, entomology, like arachnology, is not limited to one taxonomy, read collecting, and military entomology). When he says that "entomology training is a tradition", that "it is no longer very necessary now" and "it is an element of advertising", he is clearly lying, if not more grossly LYING. Maybe in his naivety, he believes that all the problems with diseases carried by insects are really finally solved? But in addition there are food pests, etc. goods, problems of environmental monitoring, where insects are one of the most convenient objects, and much more.

It is amazing that in Europe and America there are a huge number of entomology DEPARTMENTS, in China-entire entomology INSTITUTES, in Russia ... one-two and run out of money! God forbid they are still abolished after the words of such "smart chairmen" and then it will be possible to study this really necessary science only abroad (there will no longer be a department of your own!). Who are we looking up to, or is this just another stupid thing?

In any case, a complete lack of ethics! What do entomologists think about this?

Comments

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24.12.2006 0:55, Chromocenter

He would have been bitten by bedbugs, eaten all his food by beetles, butterflies and others, eaten clothes by leatherworms, moths and horseradish still knows who, etc...... They would have looked at who he would have run to first... Although I doubt that after a lot of bedbug bites, he would have been able to run much, and even naked and on an empty stomach

Andrey, it reminded me of the Egyptian executions.

And that's right! Science is science, and if you do it thinking only about what's practical - what you can sell - what you can build out of what you do - it's better not to do it at all. And it's even worse to announce that de, it's just a desire for knowledge and that's all. Actually, I once personally heard this: at a lecture on microbiology, the lecturer (who himself deals with marine bacteria) answered the question about the practical significance of the distribution of archaea in the world's oceans: pure curiosity

. I think that the laws of Newton or Kepler were also read curiously in their time. So what? However, this one from nitrview talks about "sucking out of the finger" and this is already bad - he wants that they completely closed everything after reading intrview-and what if people just have fun, then why at the state expense? And where will we end up? It sometimes seems to me that the short-term benefits approach is now very detrimental to biology as a science, turning it into an appendage of the pharmaceutical industry. It is necessary to think a little about a little more pressing, and a little broader, from which it will be possible to do applied things. But not the other way around!

24.12.2006 4:40, Shofffer

In any case, a complete lack of ethics! What do entomologists think about this?

The person answered what he thought, and he should be respected for it. Few of us can do that. And I think he's right about a lot of things.
The question is reduced to the eternal problem of the correlation of fundamental and applied sciences. K. Mikhailov defends the position of fundamental science. And science is fundamental only when there is no question of practical application of its results at all. Therefore, he considers it useless, ridiculous and "sucked out of his finger" to formulate the applied value of research for receiving grants, etc.
The fact that fundamental science can exist only on budget funds, personally, I have no doubts and its self-sufficiency is out of the question.

P.S. I wonder what you will say to the popular wisdom "Science is the satisfaction of one's own curiosity at public expense" .

24.12.2006 12:27, Dmitrii Musolin

yes... a strange interview.... probably, a lot of things are true there, but rather more harm from such a presentation than good... It publishes Russ. J. Entomol. -- the magazine's website is very strange and incomplete... I would like to make a little effort and bring the case to some acceptable standard...

The arguments about journals, societies, and membership are also partly correct... There are 2 categories of journals - those that belong to companies, and commercial ones. Often, entrance and annual contributions to the Company are a pass to subscribe and publish free of charge in the company's journals. And then the result is both the circulation and the audience. And how many of us on the site are members of Ross Ent. Comh.? And how long ago and how much dues were paid?

Yes, it is difficult to organize it now, when everything has fallen apart and no one has the money for decent contributions that can support the society and print a magazine...

Science-pop books are also somewhat strange.... This is just an outlet for schoolchildren-they are always there and there should be a need for books... Maybe the problem is that translated books look better because they are more colorful?

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24.12.2006 16:33, Mylabris

In principle, Mr. Mikhailov is right. Let's speak frankly-leaning in favor of

using binoculars over a representative of your favorite group do you think much about practical things?

meaning of this taxon? Remember (who does this professionally) and

entomologist colleagues - what's more interesting, a description of a dozen new species after the trip

in the darkness of darkness or after a decade of ordeal over one species count it

environmental value (how much it eats, when and how many eggs it lays, etc.).
In fact, entomology (as well as many other sciences) has always been a lot of fun.

enthusiasts who primarily found aesthetic pleasure in

collectibles, fees, and descriptions.
Open any Entomological Review to see if there are many publications on <url>

practical aspects of entomology?
Thank you all for your understanding.
Professional entomologist.

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24.12.2006 17:01, Насекомовед

2Mylabris
But in addition to taxonomy, there are applied aspects and a huge number of them: agricultural entomology, technical, medical, forestry, etc., etc
. And this is done no less professionally than taxonomy. Taxonomy is only a small part of entomology, although it is no less important than all its other parts.

Sorry, break the connection. And so. Special journals are devoted to these aspects (listed above), and not the Entomological Review, which, indeed, mainly publishes new descriptions (this journal is not intended for articles on practical entomology). In addition, individual monographs are published on them no less frequently than species summaries, and even more often than insect determinants.

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24.12.2006 22:45, KDG

In an interview with K. Mikhailov, the opinion of the taxonomist is reflected. Taxonomists tend, like many other "fundamentalists", to have a somewhat arrogant attitude towards applied scientists. And taxonomy is "playing beads for your own pleasure." Satisfying your passion for learning and a way to train your brain in building different constructions. The practical significance of taxonomy is certainly not as obvious to the general public as applied areas. The advantage of entomology-taxonomy is that you can just do it without state support, sitting at home and getting food in other ways. Although it is certainly more fun to spend on state money, but in the current country you can't do much on them if you don't sit in some academic institute.
But as for the fact that the "official person" should be more careful in public statements-I quite agree. I'm not just responsible for myself.

25.12.2006 9:52, KDG

Grandpa Fabre also stayed at home, getting food, and was engaged in just not taxonomy, and very productively. As for money, if you sit in a laboratory and work out what has been collected for decades, then yes, you don't need a lot of money, but you still need to collect it! So state support is needed for entomology as a whole, and it is pointless to argue which direction is more important.The direction is the same, no need to pull it apart in pieces.

A lot of time has passed since the time of Grandfather Fabre and there are new directions, seriously (!) which you can't do at home. Observations of small animals in the country and behind its fence do not count. And we are talking about taxonomy. All this is based on my own experience: I travel,collect and do it at my own expense. But I repeat - with state support it would be more fun.
As for amateurs/pros , they have been cooperating for a long time even without unifying structures.

25.12.2006 12:24, RippeR

Who cares how many enthusiasts and lovers of all this beauty gathered here. Even in our small state, there are a lot of entomologists who do not even know what species they are (except for their specialization), they will never put a single insect in their pocket, they are all in science, they work for the good of the motherland, they work day after day in different fields, they save tons of grain, corn, sunflower, hectares every year forests, and what do they get???.... Yes, this can not be called a salary. And did amateur collectors ever get paid for their amateur work? Not counting those who are engaged in taxonomy and other things... Well, how to destroy or save naseokmami that do not know what they look like, where they live, what they eat and how to destroy or protect them?
When the last tree disappears, we'll know which people to thank.

This year it happened - on chestnut trees in the city there was an invasion of chestnut mining moth (I don't know the Latin name). Early leaves fell, in several places around the city a lot of it flew, like passers-by to live prevented. what do you think? That's right - the government held a meeting (it was broadcast on TV), where this bull shouted about cutting down all the trees, that the midge almost climbs into the F* * y (without having any idea what is flying there at all), that it is necessary to poison all the trees, global catastrophe nafig. One of them struck me at all: "When we wanted to cut down trees, they didn't let us, and now look at what's going on - people can't live - this stuff gets into their mouths, noses and ears" and all this in a couple of places in the city center is such a terrible event.. The horror is simple! Fuck that they turned to entomologists, they hardly know that there are people who do this..
What now? Entomology-veselukha?

25.12.2006 12:45, Vadim Yakubovich

A lot of time has passed since the time of Grandfather Fabre and there are new directions, seriously (!) which you can't do at home. Observations of small animals in the country and behind its fence do not count. And we are talking about taxonomy. All this is based on my own experience: I travel,collect and do it at my own expense. But I repeat - with state support it would be more fun.
As for amateurs/pros, they have been cooperating for a long time even without unifying structures.

You know, since this is the case, then you can't do taxonomy at the modern level at home, I don't say anything about the fact that you can dig out the genitals and look at them, but you can also do it at home, but you can extract karyotypes and other subtle matters, and everything goes there. And with regard to the state support, I agree with you, it became more fun when I did not go for soi money, and even with an indulgence from border guards-cops-foresters.
As for cooperation, I know from my own experience that entomologists do not run around the city with flags, and it is not so easy to find like-minded people, especially when you are just starting to study.

25.12.2006 13:55, KDG

You know, since this is the case, then you can't do taxonomy at the modern level at home, I don't say anything about the fact that you can dig out the genitals and look at them, but you can also do it at home, but you can extract karyotypes and other subtle matters, and everything goes there.

Biochemistry / genetics - yes, there are problems at home

. But in general, you can do taxonomy. A lot of tasks are actually solved without all the modern bells and whistles (at least in beetles). In my practice, it happened that my conclusions on the old woman of morphology were 100% confirmed by biochemistry. And the level of costs is very different. And it's too early to write off the genitals. the same endophallus is not well studied in any groups and is used as it should.
But it was difficult to find like-minded people before - now there is the Internet, thematic sites, etc. In extreme cases, you can always go to the local university and ask..

This post was edited by KDG-12/25/2006 13: 56

25.12.2006 14:01, KDG

And did amateur collectors ever get paid for their amateur work? Not counting those who are engaged in taxonomy and other things...

Amateurs have never been "paid extra" and are not required to do so. That's why they're amateurs. If you like it, do it; if you don't like it, don't do it.. Philatelists and numismatists are not paid extra. Most taxonomists sit in institutes/universities and receive money for taxonomy (the fact that they are funny is another matter). And as a rule, they have money for travel expenses, it is much easier for them to "knock out" a grant for research and not take money away from the family, but time from vacation. Sitting at home - it's not really possible to get a grant (only co-authored).

27.12.2006 14:44, Mikhail F. Bagaturov

Cyril, as I understand it, is generally right. If you discuss everything in detail in detail, then you can go far... Do I need to...
Being a person on a global scale in general, he can compare how it was, is now and was and is in the world as a whole, and in general is right, if objectively.
Dear KDG and many others who have spoken out are also right. If we really look at the situation, then science in its pure form, as such, its development, has long been no longer a prerogative or even at least a promising area of funding for anyone in general, and not just the state. There are certainly examples, such as the same Mavrodi, and even now many large businessmen invest in hobbies, but with the condition of meeting their own needs in the first place, but this is an isolated case.
Therefore, the areas that can somehow be involved in the process of meeting "universal" needs and as the main result of" investments " - making a profit for investors - here there is literature, sponsorship and everything else combined...
This largely limits the commercialization of science, which is not always healthy, on the one hand, and the "withdrawal" from science in general of many (my own example) who would and could, but do not have the opportunity due to life circumstances, and doing this as a hobby.

29.12.2006 23:59, guest: Кирилл

Thank you all for your kind words.

I believe that fundamental science (taxonomy, in particular) is bent everywhere. We are not as fast as in the West. Taxonomic and morphological schools are disappearing. Money is given only in China and Malaysia, but there are no cultures, there are no schools, and it is a matter of decades to introduce them.

I don't like Eunuchs, I'm a sinner. I know her well.

All the current science is in danger. everything is based on PR. This is disgusting, but probably useful too. It's not for nothing that akad. Pavlovsky at one time invented "military zoology". They immediately gave him money - both for expeditions and for the Zoological Institute of the USSR Academy of Sciences, of which he was then director... Now we are promoting cladistics and biodiversity (previously there was goskadastr). Medical and chemical businesses are invested in molek. biology. Okay, of course, but this is not a science foundation, sorry.

And we now also have a culture-multur. The level of students - my experience and that of my colleagues at MSU and Moscow State University-is falling.

What will happen next - God knows. I'm trying my best. At least slow down the fall.

30.12.2006 7:37, Насекомовед

In my opinion, the word "PR" here is just appropriate in its positive meaning (PR - (from the English PR-abbreviation of the phrase public relations "public relations") is a type of information activity aimed at forming public opinion about someone (for example, in the field of politics, business, etc. p.)

. And no more. However, most often this word is understood as something negative. When everything is normal and no insects are visible, we are told: "uh, yes, you are doing PR" and cut funding, but when there is a crisis (an outbreak of pest numbers, for example), they run to entomologists and ask for help. But it's a little late: we treat the symptoms of the disease, not the disease itself. So our PR is a warning about possible problems.

The level of applied areas is no different from the level of taxonomy. I can't imagine what I'm talking about, since I have to deal with both directions in parallel, which I respect equally - they are necessary and necessary.

Colleagues! New Year is coming soon. I would like to hope that in the coming year entomology will really become an organic science that includes not some one-sided approach and narrow specialization among specialists divided into groups of interests, but a synthesis of various areas with a high level of educational culture of students and teachers. Let's still love science, especially our own. Good luck to you!

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02.01.2007 22:38, Pirx

Happy New Year, gentlemen entomologists! Since there is a reason to "get smart" about the things that I respect Kirill Mikhailov touched upon — and many of us should envy his ability to work in a good way... Let a few off topic. Let's put aside the Freudian dissatisfaction of our entomologist brother — what can you do, not everyone can drill in the Circumpolar region, freeze in Promalpa, be a fireman or an emergency doctor. Most people experience this in childhood and adolescence, when you try not to admit to your classmates and, especially, classmates that you adore boogers. But personally, another question haunts me. No, not the ratio of applied and fundamental entomology, amateur and professional, entomology and entomology (c) - this is casuistry, almost like in taxonomy :-). And the question about the need for exactly the business that you love and that you do. And for your family, for the state, and for future researchers. Your passion, especially large-scale insectophilia — is your own business, after all. But a philatelist and an entomologist are not the same thing. I decided for myself that the only justification is the quality and completeness of the chosen work. I strive for this, it turns out, however, so far poorly. Maybe it's corny, but really, the right specialist is not the one who can do the job, but the one who did it after all. But-to each his own. I will be glad to hear any opinion that does not coincide with mine. Oh, by the way, colleagues, there is an opportunity to discuss all this powerful and profound information. :- ) the ethical problem at the XIII Congress of REO, which will be held in 2007 in Krasnodar (see on the website of the Russian Academy of Sciences). zin.ru). I'm serious ;-).

03.01.2007 13:08, sealor

Yes, it's an interesting topic. As for the answer to her question-
while I was engaged in "entomophilia" at school, then in my free time after work, I didn't really think about the need for this hobby, but the lack of opportunities to communicate on topics of interest was a burden, and this burden was not a manifestation associated with the understanding of the uselessness and unsupportability of classes by others.
However, when I joined the network, I realized that not everything is so bad, although not in our city, but there is a need and understanding, I met many very good enthusiastic people, learned a lot of new facts, and I hope that I also helped someone by describing my observations.
This is one thing, here entomology is needed by entomologists themselves.

But here I entered the biofac that recently appeared in our city.
And there I can see how biology is needed by the state in all its details. First, the conditions that are created for the work of teachers do not leave the possibility of live full-fledged work. The lack of specialists, modern equipment, and even some other resources, and the overload of lecture hours - in these conditions, as I understand it, you can forget about scientific work. And if it were only in the university, those who finish their studies in Kiev are forced to either go to work "in the company" and study in their spare time,or leave, as I understand it, there is simply no possibility to continue studying science as a creative process on the basis of a state educational institution.
Now about the students, what struck me most was the level of the current youth. In general, when I entered, I was afraid of the low level of teachers, but I hoped to find people who were close in passion among the students. It turned out that the teachers were good, but the students... Regardless of the course, almost complete "adynamia", I do not undertake to judge the level of knowledge, but knowledge is not everything, there is no passion, and knowledge is maximum from the school biology program. The culture of student behavior is low, the desire is only to earn a grade in any way, and this is not just the majority - everything.
Of course, this depends on the university, on the level of the biofactory faculty, but as far as I understand, the trend is general.

Thus, the conclusion for me is simple-entomology is now needed only for entomologists, but our state does not need it at all.
The lack of available connecting factors and methods of information exchange, the commercialization of journals, young scientists ' circles-all this divides our already sparse ranks

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06.01.2007 12:16, Pirx

Thus, the conclusion for me is simple-entomology is now needed only for entomologists, but our state does not need it at all.

I strongly support this opinion. I observe the local university from the outside, communicate with many students and see that there are really a few less interested and talented students, and, most importantly, they are less independent than they were 10-15 years ago. But I think we shouldn't look back on today. Entomologists are largely working for the future (especially with regard to collections). And, for example, in Ivano-Frankivsk and Lviv, a young growth of entomologists is growing violently. And, of course, the main problem everywhere in Ukraine is the employment of entomologists who have graduated from university or even graduate school.

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06.01.2007 12:41, Pavel Morozov

Colleagues And Friends!
I, for example, am a doctor by profession and, like other doctors, faced the problem of illiterate and incompetent management of the entire medical industry. Such words are distressing to Tov. Mikhailov, but, damn it, they don't surprise me.
For some reason, in our time, many people have divorced who manage what they are not competent in. How they ended up in these places is anyone's guess. I don't know how, whether being such assholes or dancing to someone's tune, such people destroy departments, institutes, enterprises, entire industries. Naturally, they profit from this, feeling like "great reformers", and they do not care about the fate of others. In our time, it is easier and more profitable to destroy than to create.
In my opinion, there is only one thing left for us in this case: professionals will take to the streets, block highways, and amateurs will definitely support us. The crowd will be recruited, show themselves, then someone from above may be interested in the problem.

This post was edited by Morozzz - 06.01.2007 12: 46

07.01.2007 13:06, гость N

I read what they write here and thought about it... Here's what I realized: entomology as many people see it - a HOBBY, COLLECTING INSECTS. At the head of it are taxonomists, that is, the same INSECT COLLECTORS who do not like rubella. And who will finance the collectibles? No one! And now everyone is just talking about innovative technologies. They also give money for this. But only applied entomology is suitable for innovation, which the management does not like. It's a vicious circle. I don't know, I haven't read it, but I bet that in this very Russian entomological journal of Mikhailov, which was mentioned above, (by any chance, he is not the printed organ of the Moscow branch of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences, so to speak, his face?) they print only systematic works, and they simply don't take eunuchs. If so, then everything becomes clear about the plight of collectors

07.01.2007 13:45, sealor

The point is that it is not necessary to equate simple collecting with the compilation of faunal collections, which are very important. I do not honestly understand the passion for collecting insects, which is dominated by "quantitative interest", when in the pursuit of the missing species, material is exchanged, etc
. But a collection collected within a certain, albeit not large, territory, is quite detailed and correctly designed - this is very useful data that can be used for collecting insects. They are also used in applied fields - bioindication based on the predominance of certain species and changes in population dynamics, for example.
There are a lot of applied values in entomology, and I would like to do them with pleasure, there is nothing wrong with them, but this is not necessary, alas.

As for combining work and entomology classes - well, if this is "theoretical entomology" - like writing articles, then that's fine, but if we are talking about a full-fledged accumulation of materials, about observing insects in nature and processing all this-then you need to do part-time work and what kind of work it is, so that the income is 2000$ but there was plenty of time at the same time? In my opinion, only the profession of "heir to rich relatives" is mostly suitable, it was not for nothing that most well-known entomologists had such a profession.

07.01.2007 15:16, Гость N

Gentlemen, do not forget that we live in the era of capitalism and any initiative must bring money. The official will not understand what the COLLECTION of insects is and WHY or FOR WHOM it is used. After all, he collects collections himself, for example, weapons, mansions, cars, yachts, etc., and understands unequivocally: the COLLECTION is for HIMSELF. And if it's for yourself, then you have to pay for it yourself. After all, put your collections on display at exhibitions and earn income from it. Moreover, the collections have been collected for more than one century, whether it's not a lot, it's time to bring money. Will entomologists do all this? Hardly! Another thing is applied areas that can bring real money. And we're back to where we started

07.01.2007 16:27, Pavel Morozov

Yes, in any scientific work you need material. Without it, whether it's native material, photos, etc., you can't do anything significant. No analysis, no comparisons. Hypotheses can also be made up in a chair in front of a TV or monitor, but hypotheses do not appear from scratch. Any speculations need to be confirmed financially, we need a base, primary material.
If we were talking about coal, let's remember about minerals. Geologists, after all, also collect and analyze all sorts of samples. EVEN AS A CHILD, I READ IN A BOOK how an entomologist helped geologists-he caught a mother-of-pearl, whose caterpillars feed on violets. This violet prefers certain soils with a high content of a certain element (I don't remember yet, iron, in my opinion). So, two completely different sciences intersected.
I repeat, all the problems in our country are caused by incompetent people.

07.01.2007 16:51, Ampedus

My opinion: K. Makarov does a lot of work on publishing books, and as far as I know from his colleagues in Kaluga, he is the most "strong" arachnologist in systematic terms. But the attitude to fundamental science, really, will take away the desire from anyone...
You don't need to watch this publication, dear colleagues... We need to look at those "entomologists" who seriously undermine our fundamental activity and, accordingly, our credibility... Some dissertations are based on SUCH absurd data, for example: 326 macro types for the Tula region... Are you feeling weak? When published 1200, and now even more... So, it is not K. Makarov who should be criticized, but such would-be scientists who, by the way, knock out quite noble grants for such cases, and for real enthusiasts it is difficult to find pins and boxes... If it wasn't for Morpho, I would have given up everything...

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