Wasp nests

  В Крыму шершней мало. Иногда бывает, что расплодятся раз в несколько лет, тогда попадаются, периодически (если рядом гнездо). Куда бы я не выезжал севернее на две недели или даже меньше (Москва, Киев, Донецк, Санкт-Петербург, Новосибирск) - везде успевал за это время встретить шершней. А здесь можно за целый год не увидеть ни одного, даже в лесу.

А я вот живу возле большой посадки, и видел обыкновенного шершня в прошлом сезоне всего один раз возле дома, а в других местах- ни разу, хотя бывал в десятках разных балок, разных биотопов от "пустыни" до влажного пойменного леса, и только в одной из стаций, с обилием старых деревьев я не только видел множество шершней, сотню, наверное, но и нашел их гнездо.. Наверное, это потому что неакадемические методы применяю

[ИНО,20.01.2016 14:31]

Tettigonia cantans у нас не обитает, это виридиссима. Допускаю, что и Tettigonia viridissima, я всего лишь хотел сказать, что это НЕ Decticus, которого поминает Русина.

… Lasius paralienus (в моей работе по коллективному совету мирмекологов, присутствовавших на симпозиуме, они рассматриваются по-старинке как L. alienus, запечатлены на одной из вышеприведенных фотографий) …
В целом согласен. Мне доволилось наблюдать попытки проникновения в гнёзда и Lasius, и Myrmica, и даже Crematogaster. Но никакого особого вреда активным гнёздам эти муравьи не доставляли. Возможно, роль муравьёв существенна в тропиках. Ну а наши осы их просто скидывали вниз. Другое дело, пограбить беззащитных – это да!
Что значит, по-старинке? Я не муравьёлог, но, если верить доступным мне источникам, Lasius alienus (Foerster, 1850) и Lasius paralienus Seifert, 1992 - это разные виды.

… Если Вы имеете в виду хищников, поедающих полистов во время фуражировки, то тут все упирается в методику сбора данных.
Да, примерно это и имел в виду. Но методика отработана орнитологами уже давно – они собирают и анализируют погадки. Иногда и мне приносят, чтобы определить по осиным остаткам. Птицы же не умеют жевать пищу, так что куски хитина бывают вполне пригодными. Но, понятное дело, такой подход хорош на качественном уровне, но для количественной оценки подходит весьма ограниченно.
Кстати, именно такой подход (по погадкам) позволил обнаружить, что осы входят в рацион чёрного медведя.

В этой теме есть фотография пережевывания шершнем, если память мне не изменяет, долиховеспулы.
У нас в Подмосковье Dolichovespula saxonica входит в стандартный набор добычи Vespa crabro, наряду с Apis mellifera или Sarcophaga carnaria.

Кстати, про муравьев, и даже про коров(рогатый скот) упоминает Русина в статье- название и цитата:

Yes, yes, Esox, don't even hope, you won't sleep this afternoon )) And maybe even tomorrow night )

        А куда вы их дели, сьели в голодный год? 
Моя ж медянка 

А на Николаевщине она есть, что-ли? Очень сильно удивлюсь. Степь - не ее. А вот пион тонколистный там таки по историческим данным был, но весь скурили.

  А на Николаевщине она есть, что-ли? Очень сильно удивлюсь. Степь - не ее. А вот пион тонколистный там таки по историческим данным был, но весь скурили.

А причем тут Николаевщина? Опять стрелочником заделался? ))
Для теттигонии кантанс по Украине приведена- лесная зона, Эзокс тут, помнится, хвастался своими лесами буйными и степями луговыми, а вот теттигонии певчей по Эзоксу- нет

   Так что в Крыму плотность популяции явно меньше, вот и Кархарот подтверждает. Но, разумеется, эксперту заочного исследования Кріма и всего земного шара виднее.

Не знаю чего там подтверждает Кархарот, но если Эзокс не читатель, я ему тыкну под нос

[ИНО,20.01.2016 18:45]
… погадки и экскременты - две большие разницы…
Я в курсе, но меня обычно интересует не происхождение объекта, а его состав.

…в экскрементах частицы кутикулы насекомых содержатся, но довольно мелкие. Быть может, я бы попробовал собрать из этого осу (хотя сильно сомневаюсь в результате)…
А часто и не надо никого собирать. После работы с палеонтологическими материалами (а там зачастую исходных данных не больше, а то и меньше, чем в птичьих или медвежьих какашках ) для меня отличить V.germanica и V.vulgaris или P.gallicus, P.dominula и P.nimpha не представляет сложности. Хватает даже кусочка переднее- или заднегруди.

… Птицы ведь с их активным метаболизмом очень много жрут и осы для большинства видов - крошечная доля рациона ...
Согласен. В рационе золотистой щурки (активного охотника за жалящими перепонами) доля ос не превышает полпроцента (для сравнения, на медоносных пчёл вблизи пасек приходится до 62%).

... Орнитологам, конечно, проще, они места гнездования знают, в том числе массового, соответственно, у них в наличие много гуано для исследования...
И не только это. Орнитологи ещё и потрошат пташек в больших количествах именно на предмет изучения их рациона.

… для энтомолга найти обширные залежи экскрементов охотящихся на ос птиц - это просто только на словах. А на деле ненамного реалистичнее применения предложенных Hierophis'ом чудо-камер …
Можно ещё предложить радиоактивные метки, а?

… Ну вот как раз муравьёлоги, по крайней мере российские, считают что выделение этого и многих других зейфертовых видов суть ересь ...
Я был знаком с Зейфертом, как и с его репутацией у нас. А вот с российскими муравьёлогами намного хуже. Разве они ещё остались?

Well, at the symposium, about 2/3 of the anteaters were (in relation to the rest of the specialists). Radioactive tags followed by catching birds with nets and checking with a detector are an option, but of course not with my modest capabilities. This is to let the bourgeoisie do everything better with their huge grants than to investigate the dynamics of the fall of a sandwich. I also have other topics in development that are interesting, but much less resource-intensive. And yes, our Donetsk ornithologists do not particularly gut anyone (unless it dies itself). Their main working tools are binoculars and a camera with a telephoto lens.

Pan's concept that wasps (and ants, of course, because they are also wasps) are not predators, but some special hitherto unknown ecological type of organisms, was introduced to me when I read his article about germanics, which was probably left in the drafts forever, and I was not interested in it at all. Full of speculation and wordplay. Even if the imago of a wasp or ant is not a predator (although. as I said earlier, it's still a bit of a predator), but at the family or population levels, these are undoubted predators (well, nectarophages at the same time).

And what does concepcion have to do with it? In a specific case, it has nothing to do with it, because Esox said that ants are "not herbivores, but predators", and even if they are "predators", but not only predators, and they are not nectarophages, ants have a carbohydrate type of food, and where do they get carbohydrates - from the secretions of aphids, from the nests of wasps or bees, from fall on plants or nectar-this is the third thing.

You don't need to mark hornets. One individual arrives at the polistov nest for prey every 10 to 15 minutes. We take a net, catch this individual, and lo and behold, no one else arrives until the end of the day (except polistov).

You don't need to mark hornets. One individual arrives at the polistov nest for prey every 10 to 15 minutes. We take a net, catch this individual, and lo and behold, no one else arrives until the end of the day (except polistov).

The mega-scientific method of "non-destructive experiment"is good.. And what, so all the hornets were overfished with nets on all the nests? ))

Although, about cows - Ezox probably takes an example from other colleagues in the academic department, given the silence about the" ordinary hornet on the territory of the reserve".
Although Ezox now has ironclad arguments - he was in the Crimea (he sat near the rest house, and on the beach-he didn't go far)lived, but not in nature reserves, so I didn't see any hornets ~

The word "common" is quite different from the word "rare", although again, I already wrote - it all depends on the stations and generally on the place of observation, probably in the steppe Crimea the hornet is probably really rare ..

It is common only in some years. Isn't that clear? You can live there for several years and not see a single one. In addition, it is common relative to the rare species of solitary wasps mentioned in the article, and rare-relative to it, but in other parts of the range, because this was exactly what we were talking about. I don't understand how you can be so stupid, and build at the same time here from yourself some kind of critic? Apparently, this is not being treated.

It is common only in some years. Isn't that clear? You can live there for several years and not see a single one. In addition, it is common relative to the rare species of solitary wasps mentioned in the article, and rare-relative to it, but in other parts of the range, because this was exactly what we were talking about. I don't understand how you can be so stupid, and build at the same time here from yourself some kind of critic? Apparently, this is not being treated.

Yeah.. culture of course, on top ))

Okay, here's the whole paragraph:

Yeah.. culture of course, on top ))

Well, here's the whole paragraph:
The beginning of the paragraph makes it clear that there will be considered 6 types of OS, common for the Crimea and Ukraine. There is no indication that any of these operating systems are "common compared to rare".
Well, I already wrote about the reserve, and acc. I posted the link text to avoid misunderstandings - it's common in the reserve (but in some years). Although yes, it was necessary to lay out the entire paragraph at once, since it is the ordinariness in general that is at its beginning.

As it is, once again, the tone of the discussion is revealing, which is not surprising

Can you post the whole article? There, before that, rare species were considered, in comparison with which these are common. And in our forum it was said that in the Crimea, cases of hornet attacks (such as in Donetsk) on the nests of polistov are not noted, since it is rare here (compared to Donetsk).

In general, the conclusions-Carcharoth-all the same arrogant and rude

And Esox is just a coward.
By the way, here recently lunali appeals in the style of "che weakly come to Donetsk to look for dominoes on plants" and in that spirit. So, yes, still "weakly" - I'm afraid I'm not a coward, but I'm afraid)) And yet there is something. Fear - when it is rational-can be good.
So what is the difference between cowardice and rational fear? The fact that cowardice manifests itself even when there is not the slightest threat. As in the case of the repeatedly mentioned article by Ezox, which this Ezox chickened out to put in the public domain, preferring a cozy inter-party, although he boasted about it as his latest achievement and publication revealed to the world
In general, everything ended up as it started - the drain was counted

Heh-heh, and Hierophis is still the same stupid ignoramus with ambitions. Well, to Donetsk-that's understandable, it's a risky business. It is better to come to the Crimea and find hornets here, which are common here...)))

Heh-heh, and Hierophis is still the same stupid ignoramus with ambitions. Well, to Donetsk-that's understandable, it's a risky business. It is better to come to the Crimea and find hornets here, which are common here...)))

I'm a pipette-sharp student, and why should I go to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and look for hornets there, when they've already done it for me?

In the Autonomous Region, there may be such stations, since it now exists only somewhere in Kiev on paper and other media, in which, I admit, hornets can accidentally start up, due to the fact that they are much more common there (in Kiev) than in the Crimea, which is the peninsula on which the hornet it occurs even in separate stations that are suitable for it, not every year. And if you think that Crimea and the Autonomous Republic of Crimea are one and the same thing, then I hasten to disappoint you that this has never happened, because a fairly large part of the Crimea was never included in the ARC, and is not now included in the Republic of Kazakhstan. And that's where the hornet lives, too.

I'm a pipette-sharp student, and why should I go to the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and look for hornets there, when they've already done it for me?

To try out your non-academic methods for estimating relative numbers.

in Crimea, which is a peninsula

More like an island now

Well, so for hornets-this is all a formality )
Here, in general, I have to change my opinion about hornets in the ARC and Sevastopol
I looked in Google Earth at what I previously thought was a good forest on the slopes, and was surprised.. In most cases, this is just a shrub, and where there are trees... for some reason, they are as thin as matchsticks in all the photos, and they are also crooked.. and judging by the fact that there are a lot of old, small - diameter trunks lying on the ground in many photos, the stand is constantly being updated there. What hornets there are.. And so on all the photos, of which I have viewed several dozen from different places. Not a single "giant", not a single oak grove with trees at least 50 cm in the dimeter of the trunk like not seen. Although even in some areas of our country, there are such deposits, and not a few of them. I think that they are certainly not so rare in the Crimea, these "oak woodlands", or similar stations with walnuts at least, and hornets there in some places can be common and every year, but ...In such conditions, in general, it remains only to sympathize with the hornets, they are probably not in the reserve for nothing...they are not common every year" - until whole nests are rotted out - they have nowhere to settle

More like an island now

Well, so for hornets-this is all a formality )
Here, in general, I have to change my opinion about hornets in the ARC and Sevastopol
I looked in Google Earth at what I previously thought was a good forest on the slopes, and was surprised.. In most cases, this is just a shrub, and where there are trees... for some reason, they are as thin as matchsticks in all the photos, and they are also crooked.. and judging by the fact that there are a lot of old, small - diameter trunks lying on the ground in many photos, the stand is constantly being updated there. What hornets there are.. And so on all the photos, of which I have viewed several dozen from different places. Not a single "giant", not a single oak grove with trees at least 50 cm in the dimeter of the trunk like not seen. Although even in some areas of our country, there are such deposits, and not a few of them. I think that they are certainly not so rare in the Crimea, these "oak woodlands", or similar stations with walnuts at least, and hornets there in some places can be common and every year, but ...In such conditions, in general, it remains only to sympathize with the hornets, they are probably not in the reserve for nothing...they are not common every year" - until the whole nests are rotted out - they have nowhere to settle  

Mama Mia! And what does a pan expert on the study of entomofauna from satellite images say about life on Mars? Such a forest as in the area of the Angarsk pass (and, probably, in other places of the mountainous Crimea, where I was not), Pan, I think, in my life and close to not seen. For him, three pine trees on a dune in the Oleshkin sands are already a standard.

Ezox, are you even normal, or aren't you?
You were told: "Fear - when it is rational-can be good."
And what does arachnophobia have to do with cowardice? Ezox, you're scaring me, I'm already scared
And by the way, I'm still afraid to go fishing at night, there are mosquitoes and midges bite

I can imagine how many bricks an Esoxic would put down if he had one crawling down his arm? )))

Get up, overcome your fear!

This post was edited by Hierophis - 22.01.2016 01: 28

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Mama Mia! And what does a pan expert on the study of entomofauna from satellite images say about life on Mars? Such a forest as in the area of the Angarsk pass (and, probably, in other places of the mountainous Crimea, where I was not), Pan, I think, in my life and close to not seen. For him, three pine trees on a dune in the Oleshkin sands are already a standard.

And then well.

  And then well.

What kind of dummy is this?

This is the ATO-well, that's where the hornets fatten ))
Such a piece of forest, have you seen Carcharot or Ezox anywhere such stumps? Will they assume the height of the fallen stump?

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Not that it's weak! Here on YouTube there is a video about where a man has a much larger scolopendra sitting on his hand (of course, not a cingulate), and calmly it (the hand) is removed. The man stands there as if nothing has happened. That's who,I understand, is a man without a fear brain. But let's remember: Pan Stepovoi has a phobia for the" creepy long-legged " argyopes, mosquitoes, midges (is there really so many midges in steppe Nikolayevshchina with its few stagnant slow-flowing reservoirs, or is it just enough for the development of this phobia one or two bites?), while simultaneously experiencing cravings for cows and physical contact with scolopendras. Clearly, this is not an easy case.

And what do the hornets want with these poplars? They fall and fall to pieces before they form hollows. And in the old hornbeams they are just what they need. Do you think there are 50 cm in diameter here?

This post was edited by Carcharot - 22.01.2016 01: 57

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But to answer Pan's question: I wouldn't have had it crawling up my arm.

And what does the bricks for copro have to do with it?

And so, yes, of course, Esox would only have his heels flashing with fear at the mere sight of a scolopendra, what is there-to put it on your hand

And what do the hornets want with these poplars? They fall and fall to pieces before they form hollows. And in the old hornbeams they are just what they need.

I have photos of nests in such trees, and by the way-including-in trees lying on the ground. And I found nests in this type of trees - crumbling and old. Moreover, I even found a melifer's nest in such a tree in aspen
And in the tree that is in the picture " or else!", I don't think that hornets would have settled - it's very full of holes

And what do the hornets want with these poplars? They fall and fall to pieces before they form hollows. And in the old hornbeams they are just what they need. Do you think there are 50 cm in diameter here?

Residential tree Well, that skazazt, I think that in such trees hornets can live but..
Carcharoth, how many of these trees do you have ? Do such trees form significant arrays? And here's an awkward moment - if Carcharoth says-a lot, then why are there not enough hornets? If he says-it's not enough-then you can see it's not for nothing that all the pictures of Turysty were posted on Google earth with match trees )))

I have photos of nests in such trees, and by the way-including-in trees lying on the ground. And I found nests in this type of trees - crumbling and old. Moreover, I even found a melifer's nest in such a tree in aspen
And in the tree that is in the picture " or else!", I don't think that hornets would settle - it's very full of holes

All right, I believe you. But, by the way, I found them in the ground, in a crack in a concrete wall, in a hollow oak tree, and twice in a barn (only five nests in all time), so trees, apparently, are not the main thing in limiting their distribution. And in this tree, even if they hadn't settled, that is, the neighboring ones are less full of holes.

Residential tree Well, that skazazt, I think that in such trees hornets can live but..
Carcharoth, how many of these trees do you have ? Do such trees form significant arrays? And here's an awkward moment - if Carcharoth says-a lot, then why are there not enough hornets? If he says-it's not enough-then you can see it's not for nothing that all the pictures of Turysty were posted on Google earth with match trees )))

Not much and not a little, but enough.

Well, in the hollow of an oak tree-this does not apply to trees. Well, yes, hornets settle in buildings, here in the ground-a friend also told me that he saw such a nest, but only once. And here an important point is whether the hornets settled immediately in the finished cavity, or whether the Kauferman wasps were clearing it, but alas, no one usually pays attention to this ...

And that kda-I do not argue-I myself do not quite understand why there are not enough hornets in the southern regions, so there are also few vulgaris, and their nests are similar in color

Well, in the hollow of an oak tree-this does not apply to trees. Well, yes, hornets settle in buildings, here in the ground-a friend also told me that he saw such a nest, but only once. And here an important point is whether the hornets settled immediately in the finished cavity, or whether the Kauferman wasps were clearing it, but alas, no one usually pays attention to this ...

And that kda-I do not argue-I myself do not quite understand why there are not enough hornets in the southern regions, so there are also few vulgaris, and their nests are similar in color

This is not so easy to understand. I can definitely say that they took some of the earth out of the hole, judging by its grains at the entrance (I didn't have a camera then, this is from memory). But what size the burrow was before they settled - how do you know-is only if you're lucky enough to see the nest from the very beginning, and I found it at the end of the summer.

We have much more vulgaris than hornets, and in some areas of the mountains it is even much more abundant in the forest than germanics. But at the bottom, Germanic rock prevails almost everywhere. Perhaps it's too much dryness, but I don't know what exactly it bothers them with.

And separate trees!!!
This is Crimea: (not my photo)

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