Mimicry and protective coloring. Color detection mechanism.

Sidewalking spiders. There are cases of getting into the color, and sometimes the color is completely "off topic".

This post was edited by wise snake - 11.02.2013 17: 29

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Another example of color variations in fillies.

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A classic example with melanists is pyadenits - there it seems that just those who strongly "shine" are eaten first. And you don't have to choose or change anything. No?

I know for sure that spiders are different colors when they recently crawled over, and did not have time to repaint. Cows change color after molting.

But I do not know how to determine the color, probably with the help of visual feedback) If the grass is planted on a black surface shortly before the flax, it will become very dark, and on a white surface it will become light.

Jokes with fillies are incomprehensible, mantises usually sit for a long time on one bush, spiders on one flower, fillies jump like mad Maybe they choose a place to rest under their color? )

I know for sure that spiders are different colors when they recently crawled over, and did not have time to repaint.

Well, yes, I also observed this. Repainting takes place after a molt or several molts

I. I. Lindt, 1982-Coloring of praying mantises.

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If you ignore the praying mantises and get to the erect-winged ones, it turns out to be a rather heterogeneous picture. For Oedipoda, for example (your photos are IMG_4337 and _______1), the color may change over the course of a lifetime, depending on the background. This is what the French described, and I myself observed (and I-in imago). In Gomphocerinae, however, coloration is considered to be determined genetically (there are data, however, only for a few species). It seems that genetics work both in tetrig-ides and in grasshoppers Decticus verrucivorus. On the other hand, the coloration of gregarious locusts (Locusta, Schistocerca) and "gregarious" grasshoppers (some Isophya) may change due to phase variability. In general, everything is complicated and ambiguous.

wise snake, well, an insect ...
(I read Drakus ' article )

... it is obvious that it can recognize some differences in shades, honeybees have this well shown, I doubt that the rest do not have this opportunity. So it is obvious that there is feedback, and it works similar to the same principle as the flower spider-that is, as I understand it, the spider moved to a new place, analyzes its color, and a new layer is formed under the old chitin with resp. features!
The same thing happens with mantises. But if we take into account the data from the article, then this color is not so important for mantises, due to their activity and frequent crawling from place to place, and the ratio of different colors depends on what substrate the mantises chose for molting. But for spiders, coloring is most likely sooooo important! Although again, you still need to show that the spider does not have time to fade - less prey! This is the field for ethological research
It may turn out that there is no need to change the color at all.

The example with moth is not very suitable here, although the essence is about the same, it's just that the moth color is still fixed, and probably(what if not?) genetically determined, which is understandable, the moth sheds once.
But mantises molt many times before imago, and so do spiders.

With fillies, in theory, it is easy to put an experience similar to the experience with praying mantises, I will say from my observations that black, and generally differently colored fillies of different species also come across in our country, and it seems that burnt areas are not always observed. But for the most part, they are still about the same. But the colors are all different - they can be all green, but the shade is different, which shows the perfection of their color detection mechanism during molting.
In general, the dybki are slightly different in shade, but this is typical for many species!

that is, as I understand it, the spider moved to a new place, analyzes its color, and under the old chitin a new layer is formed with acc. features!

By the spider's will? Lamarckism practically, however...
Explain why from the packages:
1. The color of the animal (as well as the substrate) is different.
2. The color of the animal (as well as the substrate) may change.
you should:
The animal changes its color to match the color of the substrate.

I had a book in my childhood (I don't remember the author), there was one story about flounder. Which didn't change color because it was blind. And who was "cured" by making her glasses. Someone would explain how glasses helped a blind animal...

Well, here it would be interesting to observe several individuals for a long time, in comparison with colored ones, in order to calculate their "success". Or maybe they need this ability to avoid being eaten by birds.

In general, it may even be so - if these spiders or mantises did not know how to change color at all, then maybe they would have lived the same way they live now, but the point is that the emergence of a new form here could work as a result of the most insignificant advantage. That is, spiders, mantises that led a similar way of hunting, and which could change the color survived a little better than those that could not change, this process is not very interesting, the costs of its implementation are obviously less significant than the benefit, in the end it turned out that this insignificant advantage multiplied for a long time gave such a here result)

And now it seems that according to research, it turns out that it doesn't seem to be necessary, but in the context of time in broths of years))"it works!"

Vorona, the fact that the animal changes color exactly to the color of the substrate-follows from experience, from experience))) Read the article at least
I'm not even talking about field observations of spiders/mantises)

Lamarckism also does not smell, or rather-obviously it should not, although it seems that Lamarckism had more to do with heredity, but okay! The bottom line is that the color change can be caused by the bbbr unconditional mechanism-that is, the spider somehow rests, shedding, and the color itself changes))) You do not control the heartbeat by willpower)))

As for cuttlefish, everything seems to be simple - they have photosensitive cells on their skin, I don't remember. Well, changing the color of their znaaachitelno more difficult-there is already a strong-willed effort, and they can adapt to anything, and even express their "emotions" in this way, that is, like "I'm going to hit it now, and it will turn purple" ))))

I've already read it. Where is it written there? Please specify the page in case I missed it out of carelessness.

This is literally immediately written, where the Hierodule is stipulated(and what, empus can be, so the hierodule can also be a hierodule - the letter HG in this non-Latin word is not readable ))) tenuidentata.
By the way, the campaign of the hierodule translates as sacred doula.

Or do environmental conditions somehow affect coloration, and all individuals are the same at birth?

What I have observed myself is that the caterpillars of some species of pigeons change their color depending on the change in the color of the food plant.

I don't see the logic. Some plants are brown, some are green. There are brown insects, there are green ones. More often, insects are found on the substrate of the corresponding color.
Even further, it is written that in the stomachs of birds, insects have more of the same color, which is more. (Well, yes, patronizing coloring is not a guarantee that you will not be devoured).
And how does it follow that they change color to match the color of the substrate?

I'm not saying it can't be. But the data presented in the article does not prove this.

This post was edited by Vorona - 11.02.2013 22: 02

Lamarckism has nothing to do with this simply because in the case of an "expedient" change in the color of an individual following a change in the background, we are talking about non-hereditary variability within the framework of the reaction norm. Now, if such things could be attached hereditarily - then one would think

Lamarckism has nothing to do with this simply because in the case of an "expedient" change in the color of an individual following a change in the background, we are talking about non-hereditary variability within the framework of the reaction norm. Now, if such things could be attached hereditarily , then one might think

So I wrote "practically Lamarckism" - because it was almost a conscious change of color that was voiced.
Feed composition - maybe a change in the synthesis of pigments (or the structure of the cover) with a change in temperature-well, what if? But I didn't crawl over to the rose, I tensed up and turned pink...

This post was edited by Vorona - 11.02.2013 22: 05

wise snake, but hardly

Vorona, in the article there is a mention of the mechanism of acquiring color, although a little in passing, it is understandable, the article is not about this, it is basically obvious! just you are already experienced, jae probably more accurately skazazt, stryanyannaya So I will not cut you out exactly here the part where it is written about it is necessary-find it yourself)))

Vorona, I can, and not in theory, but in practice, make such a pyramid that if you put it on a certain color, it will immediately become the same color. And note that there won't be any processors or microchips at all - it's so elementary that it can't be easier, and you doubt that an insect can do it)))))))))))

Uh-huh, a mirror.
I hope there is a more detailed explanation of the mechanism than this:

You won't find more information from Lindt. But you can find something on Oedipoda.

Levita B. Étude de l'homochromie chez Oedipoda coerulescens L. (Acridien, Orthoptère) // Bulletin Biologique de la France et de la Belgique. 1970. Vol. 104. № 2. P. 149—213.

Moreteau B. Fonction chromatrope de la pars intercerebralis chez l’acridien Oedipoda caerulescens // J. Insect Physiol. 1975. Vol. 21. № 7. P. 1407—1413.

Yerushalmi Y., Pener M. P. Age-dependent response of adults of a homochrome grasshopper, Oedipoda miniata, to the dark-colour-inducing neurohormone (DCIN) of locusts // Physiological Entomology. 2002. Vol. 27. № 2. P. 165—169.

PVOzerski, not, well, I thought that Vorona decided to troll me, But you then

"You won't find more details at Lindt's. But you can find something on Oedipoda."

Al writes correctly. Yakovlev-everything is gone Soon there will be a solid empusa )))))))

Damn it, Hierophis, this is just a guess -" if you consider". Read what experiments were conducted there - they prove "a lot of things". It is especially worth noting that they were conducted in 1959-1964, that is, the assumption of a banal monogenic difference in color forms did not occur to the authors.
PVOzerski, thank you, downloaded the latter.

2Hierophis
What is trolling about? Lindt was (at least according to the impression I got during my brief conversation with him) a very intelligent, self-taught old man from Khorog. I do not presume to evaluate it as a taxonomy. But as an experimenter, he was frankly weak, and in general entomological erudition, he sometimes slipped serious punctures. The work is old, of course, but many things were well known to science even then. See. Here, on pages 12-13, he thoughtfully discusses the causes of periodic darkening-lightening of the eyes in praying mantises and does not recognize the usual phenomenon of switching the superposition eye from day mode to night mode due to the movement of the reflecting pigment. And these things were already in Schwanwicz's textbook. Even earlier, he demonstrates that he has collected very decent samples of praying mantises - but does not conduct any statistical analysis of the dependence of the shares of owners of different colors on the background color. How can you agree with his conclusions after that? And, of course, he is not engaged in physiological experiments.

I'm not going to blame Lindt. Rather, doing science in the middle of nowhere was a scientific feat. But we must understand that this is not the level of work that allows us to judge the mechanisms of color regulation. By the way, the data provided by Lindt is quite enough to process them using statistical methods. If someone is not too lazy, they can do it. Maybe even I'll rock myself. But experiments-this should be a very subtle thing. We must not forget that the color vision of birds is very different from ours. They have, by the way, tetrachromatic vision, and even more shifted to the short-wave side. And the selection was supposed to hide mantises from birds. Therefore, the correct artificial background in the experiment is already a problem.

Yes, just the fact that mantises and spiders in this case change color depending on the background is an axiom, that's what I mean. And the article just mentioned it.
This is exactly what I meant, because the Crow doubts it. I think these experiments with background color were conducted regularly, especially with robots.

Well, the role of this is another matter, for a substantive discussion of this, you need to already have some kind of appropriate knowledge. by experience, I don't have it. I only made my own guess about the selection utteredl.

Back in my school years, I tried to conduct experiments with Decticus verrucivorus-I raised larvae from the age of 2 on a different background. The samples, however, were small, and the background is unnatural. Then I got the impression that the color of the grasshopper does not depend on the background. Now I would love to repeat these experiments-but carefully. But I don't even know how or when to approach them yet. There are really a lot of technical problems there, and creating "correct" backgrounds is just one of them.

So decticuses don't seem to be particularly noticed for this! With a praying mantis, everything is generally easier than easy - you need to catch a few larvae, bring them home and feed them in cans with white and black cloth. Then the larvae can be released painlessly. Well, the spider too - if it sits on a yellow flower - it is yellow, if on blue-blue, on white-white, it does not eat the petals))))

First of all, there were no mantises in my native land. Secondly, D. verrucivorus is quite good in terms of color variability as such. Yes, and in captivity, they live well (if you feed them on time and do not over-dry them). So, in principle, you can work with it.

As a matter of fact, I slowly took up the coloring of straight-winged birds. This year I published my first article on this topic in the Cathedral collection. The material, of course, is not like Lindt's, but it is processed statistically. This is in the same place as for the fauna of the Pskov region (link in the next branch).

wise snake, well, there are no special variations and there seems to be.. Larvae are usually the same as before, but then the adults become a standard color. For example, I don't remember decticuses that were too different from each other at all, they are all of the same type, regardless of the biotope. And albifrons, too. However, as well as tettigonii, and dybki - there is a slight difference, especially in dybki, but with mantises-not to compare!

This post was edited by Hierophis - 03.03.2013 22: 51

Can you poke your finger? I can't seem to find this article...

http://www.zooherzen.org/publikacii/sborni...redirects=0&d=1 - c. 11-17.

Larvae are usually the same as before, but then the adults become a standard color. For example, I don't remember decticuses that were too different from each other at all, they are all of the same type, regardless of the biotope. And albifrons, too.

About albifrons-I can agree. But verrucivorus'y are very variable and at the stage of imago, too.

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I couldn't resist putting in one larva, too. But I have met imagos with the same color, although infrequently.

There is one more thing-here Hierophis is right - but it should not be about Decticus, but about Platycleidini. They do have a change in color with the last molt. I have observed this in Platycleis grisea: the main tone of the larvae is green, while the adults are gray. Even cooler is Metrioptera brachyptera. These larvae always have a light brown top, but in adults there is a polymorphism: part of the imago retains its larval color, while some of the top becomes green.

I looked at Lindt's data on the frequency of matching the color of mantises with the background color - and realized that it was useless to process them statistically. For a very simple reason: Lindt did not write how often this or that background and this or that color of the praying mantis were found (and in general did not indicate how many mantises of what color were specifically on which backgrounds).

This post was edited by PVOzerski - 03/18/2013 14: 33