Should scientific publications be publicly available?

In fact, authors pay for publications ONLY in Russia. examples are collections of regional branches of REO. But they have no other choice: with the catastrophic poverty of science in Russia, entomologists often work ONLY at their own expense, because what the state allocates for their work is hardly called help. How can I buy a good computer, a microscope, plan a trip abroad or to the fields for a salary of 10-12 thousand rubles a month? And also if you are a normal person, not a maniac, and you have a wife, a child (or even two or three), a mother-in-law with a father-in-law, etc., etc.? That's what people are doing. Entomology has always been a kind of elite club for its existence as a science: the state treats the "bugs" as an extremely frivolous tribe (although it is precisely from the" bug " science that such branches of modern industry as aircraft construction have emerged).

Since 1993, I have been going on expeditions to Central Asia - all at my own expense. The state has not helped me once, not even with a single ruble. That is why I view our academic system with a certain amount of skepticism: thousands of people work hard for a pittance so that dozens are in oil and do what they want. It is no secret that many of the works of our academic bonzes are not the result of their work, but the result of the work of a team of subordinates.

It is necessary to distinguish: in Russia entomological societies unite impoverished enthusiasts who pay 25-100 rubles a year and have only a nominal relation to the society, in the West they are well-off gentlemen who pay several orders of magnitude more for their membership. For example, membership in Societas Europaea Lepidopterologica costs 35 euros. For a colleague from France or Germany, this is a one-time beer trip. For many Russians, this is a quarter of their salary. This is precisely why we don't understand the "high" prices of books. The West has long been working in this area along the path of the highest quality: hard thread binding, coated thick paper, color illustrations. Therefore, the production of such books is quite expensive. There are also Western books that are inexpensive even for the Russian consumer-printed on newsprint and without color. They are also produced, but amateurs (that is, the majority of members of Western entomological societies) do not buy them - they are interested in the manual for determining the material, not the scientific value. And this, in principle, is quite logical: if 90 % of the members of society are in it only to communicate and change, then it does not make sense to expect them to buy the work "molecular phylogeny of the akakius of Zambia" at the price of Chikolovets ' books.

I've published in various European magazines - they only ask for money if you want more prints than you should. And this is correct - there is a certain number of impressions in the rules, which you agree to when sending the manuscript there. If you want more, pay for it.

Well, the books... I, for example, published my own catalog at my own expense. The second edition of the catalog, which will soon be ready, will also be published at my own expense. For waiting for Uncle Vasya with a fat purse, who out of the kindness of his heart will pay for my book - in our country is stupid. And to break through a grant or some other assistance is a pointless waste of time for me personally - I will earn more money on my own during this time.

And happiness is not in money, dear colleagues.

You understand what the problem is - here many people write what they don't know. How many articles do you have abroad? How many articles does the author have? Here you are hanging out anonymously-the forum is not a state house, but in fact a forum for many is a means to expand their knowledge of entomology, meet people, contacts, exchange, joint trips. There is not a single normal journal of entomology where they are published for money. Some people charge money for color tables.

I totally agree.
In general, the topic is interesting. Scoundrels will look for something to rip off, and even relatively free, but this is another topic. An honest person will not find it difficult to pay for a copier and an email resource.

I don't have any scientific articles, the one who wrote it is enough, I've seen the list of publications. You yourself write that they say that normal entomology journals do not charge money for publication, because it is illegal, so all entomology journals are normal, or only those that do not charge money for articles are normal? And if "someone" takes payment for color printing, then it already turns out that they are "not normal"

And why are you so excited about anonymity, there's a little bit of your own colleague in ideology-ropalocera, almost killed for anonymity To expand knowledge on entomology anonymity on the forum does not interfere, acquaintance is the same.
The forum is something like benches in the park, anyone can come there, and it would be strange if everyone in the parks wore badges with their full name, this is already right at your home professional, so that each participant was labelled in full )))

This post was edited by Hierophis - 05.11.2010 10: 37

I totally agree.
In general, the topic is interesting. Scoundrels will look for something to rip off, and even relatively free, but this is another topic. An honest person will not find it difficult to pay for a copy machine and an electronic resource.

What scoundrels?? Which one should I rip off? If we are talking about scientific publications?

I think the problem here is not that many people write things they don't know about, but that many people write themselves and don't read others!

I don't have any scientific articles, the one who wrote it is enough, I've seen the list of publications. You yourself write that they say that normal entomology journals do not charge money for publication, because it is illegal, so all entomology journals are normal, or only those that do not charge money for articles are normal? And if "someone" takes payment for color printing, then it already turns out that they are "not normal"

And why are you so excited about anonymity, there's a little bit of your own colleague in ideology-ropalocera, almost killed for anonymity To expand knowledge on entomology anonymity on the forum does not interfere, acquaintance is the same.
The forum is something like benches in the park, anyone can come there, and it would be strange if everyone in the parks wore badges with their full name, this is already right at your home professional, so that each participant was labelled in full )))

Don't play with words - you don't understand what a normal or abnormal magazine is in my understanding, because you haven't published it yourself. There are all sorts of messengers where you have to pay for publications, these are commercial publications that publish anything. Publishing in them is a strange style. There are hundreds of zoological or entomological journals where all people are published for free. Half of them charge money for the color. This depends on the journal's tools. But for 90% of zoology articles, color is not needed.

Don't play with words - you don't understand what a normal or abnormal magazine is in my understanding, because you haven't published it yourself. There are all sorts of messengers where you have to pay for publications, these are commercial publications that publish anything. Publishing in them is a strange style. There are hundreds of zoological or entomological journals where all people are published for free. Half of them charge money for the color. This depends on the journal's tools. But for 90% of zoology articles, color is not needed.

I had this in mind in order to catch up with the previous letter. Zoological and entomological journals in Russia and abroad can be published for free, but the time frame is another matter. And for this, you can also get a copyright fee (the same is good), although the amounts are not very large. But paid ones (they are scoundrels) can rip off, I had experience. I won't say where and when. In paid ones and the level is lower. Some articles don't even look like good posters.

  
anonymity on the forum does not interfere with acquaintance as well.

And it only contributes to trolling.

And it only contributes to trolling.

By the way, good food contributes to trolling.
In addition, anonymity does not promote trolling, but rather a double-edged discussion that is free from certain complexes. Moreover, it is not necessary that both parties to the dispute speak anonymously, anonymity is sufficient only on one side - the result is the same - anonymity gives freedom in the dispute to both the one who is hiding under the nickname and the one with the badge, the latter is not confused by the age of the opponent and his initials and writes everything that he thinks

You (or you, I will be free from some complexes) - Hierophis-accept the truth as old as the Internet - You are either a bot in fact (then you can immediately go for some statements for one trigrammaton), or a person. In the latter case, try to respect the forum visitors as well, and show respect for yourself - just don't be rude. And then at a personal meeting with a number of forum members, I'm afraid you don't dare to say "what you think", so that a double-edged discussion does not become even more double-edged. Yes, it's a threat.

Pirx, yes, I know, you have people there in Donetsk, so to speak, harsh, there in the field alone, in even if in glasses and with a net, but with an "intyllygentnoy muzzle" do not go )))
And they were rude, by the way, while only you, no one here was rude to anyone.
And who is in the"number of forumchan"? As they say, please read out the entire list so that I know when to tremble )))

by the way, there are still some conventions that are called "communication culture", and which in theory should be observed, regardless of anonymity, they include not only the presumption of respect for the participant as a person, but also have the function of certain markers regarding who violates these norms. Anonymity, by the way, is also not bad for identifying such situations.
"Bend the matrix with this variable. analyze it" (c)

This post was edited by Hierophis-05.11.2010 19: 44

By the way, good food contributes to trolling.

And you haven't made a mistake yet? Each forum has its own audience and traditions. There are academic traditions, and there are also customs on forums where porn is discussed. That's where anonymity is quite logical.

And who is in the"number of forumchan"? As they say, please read out the entire list so that I know when to tremble )))

It's funny! And who are you? Introduce yourself!

 

Worse than that.... So you, Hierophis, want to be anonymous. And someone could tell you, for example, who to contact for professional help - but we don't know the city or country.

And you haven't made a mistake yet? Each forum has its own audience and traditions. There are academic traditions, and there are also customs on forums where porn is discussed. That's where anonymity is quite logical.

In fact, since the creation of this forum, non-anonymity has been the norm, and it has been provided, so to speak, in hardware. And the discussions were cool, and there was not much rudeness, well, there was of course, but what to do. However, later, with the increased availability of the Internet, in general, then a bunch of guest spam began, and alas, it almost does not work.
So don't talk about Academic Traditions. And in general, of course, I don't really understand the varieties of Mr., but it seems to me that porn is not condemned. It is watched )))

  

Таа,
Voo!

This post was edited by Hierophis-05.11.2010 19: 53

Can I speak Russian? What is "non-anonymity" and how can it be provided in hardware? Turn off the computer, or what?

No, of course, to LORE, for example, in terms of rudeness and trolling, here is still far away. I, however, and there is not encrypted (and not rude). So, are we going to talk like this? Sample with linux.org.ru AKA LOR:

Can I speak Russian? What is "non-anonymity" and how can it be provided in hardware? Turn off the computer, or what?

No, of course, to LORE, for example, in terms of rudeness and trolling, here is still far away. I, however, and there is not encrypted (and not rude). So, are we going to talk like this? Sample with linux.org.ru AKA LOR:

Non-anonymity is such an aberration of the word, it should be read as "on it anonymity"
so, anonymity on this forum was provided by guest login. And in all sections. It is still available in many sections, and in this subforum too, but the list of banned IP addresses is very large.

And as for me, the conversation is now much more creepy than your example, in your example there is no rudeness or trolling, it's just ridicule and a special style of communication on such forums in general, I think.

As for the country and the city - I'm not a collector, not a seller, I'm interested in insects, that's all. In addition, Yakovlev probably won't send me an article for free anyway)))

Well, I've been a very rare guest in a conversation ever since - but that's a special case: it is unbearable when snobby expats say nasty things about unwillingly lumpenized colleagues who have remained in their homeland. Although about the style you are, alas, right too...

Feels my heart, it is necessary in Nikolaev to look for answers.

No, you need to love a troll ...
Pay attention to how the topics multiply. Personally, I already know who we're dealing with.
Just ignore it and then everything will fall into place, the troll will go looking for another forum .

Feels my heart, it is necessary in Nikolaev to look for answers.

Well, deanonymization has begun, now will the witches ' hammer be used? )))
Although, to be honest, in the beginning I filled out some of my personal data, then removed it, and now I won't fill it out.
You give freedom of anonymity! <smiley face: flag in hand>

So you, Hierophis, want to be anonymous. And someone could tell you, for example, who to turn to for professional help - but we don't know the city or country.

Country-Ukraine
City-Nikolaev


To the question of anonymity

No, you need to love a troll ...
Pay attention to how the topics multiply. Personally, I already know who we're dealing with.
Just ignore it and then everything will fall into place, the troll will go looking for another forum .

What, it's a shame that I broke your lesson on how to work with sources? I think it's just as clear to you as it was in class
But about ignore, this is correct. It would be better to write on what principle revisions are made.
By the way, how do themes breed? I want to pay attention and look)

Country-Ukraine
City-Nikolaev


On the issue of anonymity

How can you prove it? You never know yerofisov on the Internet climbs, the specific epithet is not present

By the way, good food contributes to trolling.
In addition, anonymity does not promote trolling, but rather a double-edged discussion that is free from certain complexes.

So you want to say that hiding behind a nickname, you can say something to a stranger, something that you would never be able or dare to say to his face?

I have repeatedly asked at least one anonymous person to show his face during a heated discussion. No one agreed. This means that anonymous people (who get into heated arguments) are just cowards. He teaches Anisyutkin lessons. Look at this.

Well, if by and large, then yes, this is usually done, but this is also a plus, anonymity liberates, and you can immediately see who is who, this is about the culture of communication. But if this is intentional trolling, then of course it's more difficult, but I don't actually do intentional trolling, although I know the theory, so to speak, although if it's about me personally, then the experiment is not completely clean, I knew perfectly well that my nickname is not resistant to deanonymization, and I didn't care about it.

But in general, such a negative attitude towards anonymity, which can be seen in some participants, is a very important marker of some things, I won't say what, it's from the field of ethology, but not insects at all. So it will be an offtopic.

, "what you think", so that the double-edged discussion does not become even more double-edged. Yes, it's a threat.

Grigory, what's the matter with you?!! Where the world is going!!!

I have repeatedly asked at least one anonymous person to show his face during a heated discussion. No one agreed. This means that anonymous people (who get into heated arguments) are just cowards. He teaches Anisyutkin lessons. Look at this.

First, the lesson was taught by Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg. I broke the lesson So you need to be cool-headed, not to distort the reality in your favor. And yet, what kind of heated discussion is this? This is so-so, pre-New Year's warm-up Sharp discussions are usually for the new year)))

PS
Yes, and why do you need a "face"? In such "sharp discussions", the face is needed only to hit it Is a forum box, it is important to be able to work with information, and then how to threaten threats, there are a lot of people who want to do this, especially on the forum, and how to discuss honestly, so anonymity immediately interferes.

This post was edited by Hierophis-05.11.2010 21: 23

First, the lesson was taught by Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg. I broke the lesson So you need to be cool-headed, not to distort the reality in your favor. And yet, what kind of heated discussion is this? This is so-so, pre-New Year's warm-up Sharp discussions are usually for the new year)))

PS
Yes, and why do you need a "face"? In such "sharp discussions", the face is needed only to hit it Is a forum box, it is important to be able to work with information, and then how to threaten threats, there are a lot of people who want to do this, especially on the forum, and how to discuss honestly, so anonymity immediately interferes.

Anonymous users are usually rude. And you don't know who to send to endofallus in this case.

This post was edited by rpanin - 05.11.2010 22: 18

Anonymous users are usually rude. And you don't know who to send to Endovallus in that case.

Hmm, it's kind of unethical to send it. They usually just don't talk to boors
Or maybe you wanted to say that a person with an open face is still easier in this face, sorry, well, you understand? Because in science, especially in taxonomy, there is a very strong dominance of authority. Anonymous, he can be anyone, but some amateur from the Dark-cockroaches, what to talk to him, ish what he wanted, give him free access! Let the cars unload better

Strange... I once thought that the main purpose of forums like this is to exchange information and experience, to collectively discuss some problems... And it turns out-boxing...

Ek you have overfed him colleagues

Strange... I once thought that the main purpose of forums like this is to exchange information and experience, to collectively discuss some problems... And it turns out-boxing...

I used to think so too. But that was a mistake

Hmm, it's kind of unethical to send it. They usually just don't talk to boors

I may seem unnecessarily rude, but we usually explain to boors that it is not good to be rude to friends and strangers. At the most understandable level for any person, regardless of their upbringing.

This post was edited by Bad Den-06.11.2010 01: 59

The turn of the topic seems to me unnecessarily abrupt. By the way, at the reptile forum, the subject of our current interest was quite rational (although recently that forum has not been opened for some reason); therefore, it is quite possible that the matter, as it has happened more than once, also depends on how violently the comrades react to the appearance of another Mowgli.

As for the "accessibility" of publications, this question can be divided not only into two surveys, but also into twenty-two, it is complex, it must take into account many factors and interpretations, a rough scale does not work here, and it cannot cover the palette of opinions. If I answer, for example, that maybe they should in the abstract, but they really shouldn't, because they can't by definition, where should I put this answer? It was not invented by us that scientific statements (and scientific publications are primarily valuable for them) cannot, in principle, be publicly available. There is science and there is ordinary consciousness. So why the hell question the general availability of textual fixation of these provisions? How do we interpret accessibility (and general availability)? Is it better to talk about all possible types and forms of publications, or to guess to introduce distinctions in the response options? Should they be today, or should they have been yesterday (when there was no Internet, and every rural library and Plavilshchikov's identifier was not printed on paper)? Current publications should be published , or they should also be published in the time of Boisduval or Staudinger (then give me an uncle who will digitize all this, there is still a lot of work here, but where can you go without first descriptions, etc.)? Sometimes we demand that our living colleagues give away access to their books, but why don't we demand free copies of his articles from Krulikovsky, because he probably doesn't hold on to copyright for a long time? Or is it their fault that they are still alive, and you can pester them with science-loving whining?

Everything should be, but there is no limit to perfection. You need to strive for maximum security, no matter who is arguing, but setting extreme positions right now is pointless. You just need to move forward in ensuring maximum access, but there are limits, there is a measure of what is possible, including due to the specific interests of interested parties. Grub in our time and then are not "publicly available" in any sense of the word.

I may seem unnecessarily rude, but we usually explain to boors that it is not good to be rude to friends and strangers. At the most understandable level for any person, regardless of their upbringing.

As for rudeness, this social phenomenon is inevitably observed during "heated discussions". It all depends on the cultural level of the participants, including those who respond to boorish attacks.
Rudeness can be divided into components, as their "offensiveness" decreases, but here, too, for whom as, so rather as rudeness decreases.
1 insults, direct aggression to the opponent
2 ridicule and mockery
3 teaching and mentoring tone
4 ostentatious ignoring
I think that it is not nice to point fingers at who and what was observed in a particular case. All these components are present in such disputes, but only aggression and insults-for me personally, this is a reliable reason to form a certain opinion about a person.

The turn of the topic seems to me unnecessarily abrupt. By the way, at the reptile forum, the subject of our current interest was quite rational (although recently that forum has not been opened for some reason); therefore, it is quite possible that the matter, as it has happened more than once, also depends on how violently the comrades react to the appearance of another Mowgli.

What doesn't open there, like everything opens
As for the violent reaction - I don't think that's the point, it's the atmosphere of ka ktakova, personally I don't like to start scandalous topics, but if there are such topics, and there is still something to "fight for", then why not ) It's a different matter here - it's not entirely clear what some participants are fighting for, the position of kovyl is clear to me, but the position of Yakovlev and ropalocera.com not really. I personally am for the lack of mentoring tone and arrogant views from the "elite" to beginners and amateurs, so I argued with some participants. Because I believe that if there was less arrogance and "scientific separatism", then there would be free access, and everything would be studied much more deeply and in more detail.

What doesn't open there, like everything opens

Then it's already my or network glitches, or in the browser. For some reason, none of the pages open. Let's hope it's temporary.

The fact is that for "ordinary consciousness" by default, no scientific statements are interesting. So why hide from this very consciousness what it already needs? [ ... ] You have already put forward the position that paid literature is one of the bastions of elitism

1. Really, why hide it? I don't think so; I didn't suggest it. I only meant that, let's say, a circulation of a hundred thousand is not needed for a thing that only a maximum of a thousand people really need. That the question of accessibility should be decided taking into account the number of people who really need it (as well as many other factors). It is completely unnecessary to "hide" from everyday consciousness, you just don't need to rely on it too much.
2. Did I mention elitism? And about paying as a bastion from the profane? Was it really me? I don't remember that, but someone said it, that's for sure. I could hardly say that myself, it is absolutely not in line with my position.
3. What is released in the quotation and replaced with dots is the development and refutation of a thesis that I do not agree with and did not speak out about. And the cap from my quote makes you think that you are arguing with me. This is a misunderstanding.

 
2. Did I mention elitism? And about paying as a bastion from the profane? Was it really me?

Yes, I apologize, this was the position of your opponent, that's what it means to rely on memory and not check the source, especially since it is available and I remember where it is. Here is this position


During digital technologies, it is not rational for me to raise the question of planning the number of impressions, starting from the artificially derived figure of the expected scientists who need it. Why not post a mirror copy of an article, monograph, or popular science book for everyone to see on the site?