Jaundice (Colias)

I'm going to add fuel to the fire.

Colias grieshuberi Korb, 2004 (Table 4: 2; Figure 88)
Colias alta grieshuberi Korb, 2004: 115, Abb. 1. ТМ по голотипу: “Barskaun-Schlucht, 10 km südlich von Barskaun, Kirgisien”.
The holotype was transferred to the ZMMU for storage.
E k o l o g and I. Butterflies fly in 2-3 generations from May to October. AP: 1000-2500 m.
Prefers settled areas: steppes, slopes with thickets of ziziphora, dry meadows, thickets of roses.
R a s p r o s t r a n e n i e . It is found in all ridges except the Kirghiz one.
T o h k i s b o r a m a t e r i a l a . Кунгей Ала-Тоо: Каинды, Балыкчи, Торуайгыр, Чолпон-Ата, Бостери, Пришиб,
Темировка, Григорьеское, Ак-Булак, Кюрментю, Тогузбулак. Ketmen: Kegen, Komirshi. Trans-Ili Alatau: Koram. Ter-
skei Ala-Too: Orto-Tokoy, Kok-Sai, Kaji-Sai, Barskoon, Dungereme, Kichi-Jargylchak, Jety-Ogyuz, Karakol, Teplo-
klyuchenka.
TL by the original description: “Barskaun-Schlucht, 10 km südlich von Barskaun, Kirgisien”. Ecology: flies in two – three generations from
May to Oktober at the altitude of 1000 – 2500 m in various xerophylic biotopes. D: all mountain ridges except Kirghiz Mts.

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I will note that according to my information, some people are going to describe subspecies of the Grieshuber's jaundice.

And I have a question, why is it not hyale.

I shouldn't have gotten into an argument with you, I just got dirty, don't scold me too much

How harsh you are! I'm investigating the case, and I don't have any ulterior motive. It's just that if you have a site that is also a scientific reference, then you probably should have indicated the source of knowledge about such details of two sister taxa as the altitude threshold, stations, etc. When you say that adults are practically indistinguishable. Just in case someone needs this information.

And I have a question, why is it not hyale?

Many reasons.
Although the taxon is controversial , it has been isolated from Southern Siberia for at least 14,000 years, so the formation of the species is more than likely.

Many reasons.
Although the taxon is controversial , it has been isolated from Southern Siberia for at least 14,000 years, so the formation of the species is more than likely.

14,000 is a small change. So this is a species in the rank of "island", when anything that has no external contact is considered a species. The hyale subspecies is described from Gansu, and from there the mountains are not so far from your obsequious taxon, especially since these mountains are poorly studied in terms of butterflies.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 31.10.2013 18: 24

14,000 is a small change. So this is a species in the rank of "island", when anything that has no external contact is considered a species. The hyale subspecies is described from Gansu, and from there the mountains are not so far from your obsequious synonym, especially since these mountains are poorly studied in the sense of butterflies.

14,000 years is quite a lot, considering 3 glaciation intervals before that (the last one-24,000 years ago) and a sharp change of climate from humid to arid just in this region (14,000 is just so many years ago there was a sharp aridization in this region). The fact that something is described from Gansu is fine, but it is unlikely that hyala can "jump" over the Central Tien Shan, whose heights and glaciation exclude the possibility of even wind transport. Or do you naively believe that Central Asia is a relatively flat region? a table with optimal conditions for growing the species? I'm afraid that's not quite true: The Tarim Basin, the Kashgar loess oasis, and the highlands of the Central Tien Shan exclude giala migrations from Gansu to Tien Shan. And it is not so close to Gansu from Central Asia...
Well, for realism - a map...

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But until now, there are no CLEAR signs that can be used to determine these species one hundred percent.

Population biology distinguishes them clearly. Both species fly in many areas together, making contact in a broad front along the edge of biotopes, and at the same time , for example, in southern Russia. But they don't cross, they don't dissolve. Why? Because there are different types. Two subspecies of the same species cannot live geographically together. But according to Sergenicko-they can! Then let him, as an" alternative scientist", propose his own concept of the species. For anything else that is "refuted" in an infinite number of Internet discussions, without offering concepts, but only with innumerable "considerations", is trollism.

The question is linguistic: why do you have it EratO, if it is unambiguous Erate (i.e., in Russian, Erata). Erate is the Greek participle f. r. from erao, meaning "beloved".

There is also in " Origin of the name. Erato (Greek mythology) - muse of poetry, one of the nine muses, daughters of Zeus and Mnemosyne.

14,000 years is quite a lot, considering 3 glaciation intervals before that (the last one-24,000 years ago) and a sharp change of climate from humid to arid just in this region (14,000 is just so many years ago there was a sharp aridization in this region). The fact that something is described from Gansu is fine, but it is unlikely that hyala can "jump" over the Central Tien Shan, whose heights and glaciation exclude the possibility of even wind transport. Or do you naively believe that Central Asia is a relatively flat region? a table with optimal conditions for growing the species? I'm afraid that's not quite true: The Tarim Basin, the Kashgar loess oasis, and the highlands of the Central Tien Shan exclude giala migrations from Gansu to Tien Shan. And it is not so close to Gansu from Central Asia...
Well, for realism - a map...

[attachmentid()=185866]

And who flies between the Urals and Gansu? They would have sent me a full map.

In general, I am extremely curious to hear why 14,000 years is a small thing (and this is at least 14,000 generations), and how much is not a small thing. It always seemed to me that these figures strongly depend on the history of the territory, and-and geological, and climatic, and botanical, and glaciological, and many other things. But such estimates (a trifle) - extremely strange, if you'll excuse me, they look, in the light of the fact that the age of glaciations is determined accurately, the age of the Issyk-Kul refugium is determined no less accurately, and the moment of climate aridization is determined with an accuracy of 1000 years.

There is also in " Origin of the name. Erato (Greek mythology) - muse of poetry, one of the nine muses, daughters of Zeus and Mnemosyne.

Well, this is a misconception about the origin of the name. The author of it is called erate, and he naturally studied Latin and Greek at the gymnasium. Erate in the direct meaning of "beloved", and in the figurative adjective erate "lovely, sweet, pleasant". Erato is a derivative with a different suffix. Believe me as a linguist, who also studied at the classical Department of the Moscow State University Faculty of Philology.

And who flies between the Urals and Gansu? They would have sent me a full map.

I didn't draw the map.No complaints are accepted.

Here are a couple more maps for Europe. For realism again.
I think I'm getting out of this argument gently. You're trying out your peewees here, and I don't have much time for this. As soon as you find out who is longer and who is wider, please unsubscribe and read about the result.
Dixi

[attachmentid()=185867] [attachmentid()=185868]

Population biology distinguishes them clearly. Both species fly in many areas together, making contact in a broad front along the edge of biotopes, and at the same time , for example, in southern Russia. But they don't cross, they don't dissolve. Why? Because there are different types. Two subspecies of the same species cannot live geographically together. But according to Sergenicko-they can! Then let him, as an" alternative scientist", propose his own concept of the species. For anything else that is "refuted" in an infinite number of Internet discussions, without offering concepts, but only with innumerable "considerations" - is trollism.

"Two subspecies of the same species cannot live geographically together. But according to Sergenicko-they can! "You are misreading my point. Two subspecies with established phenotypes and differences in biology, once isolated, can converge their ranges and meet. A hybridization zone is formed on the common border. It should take quite a long time for the opposite gene flows to level out the differences. And since the last glaciation and associated isolation were relatively recent, the unification process has not yet been completed.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 31.10.2013 18: 55

I didn't draw the map.No complaints are accepted.

Here are a couple more maps for Europe. For realism again.
I think I'm getting out of this argument gently. You're trying out your peewees here, and I don't have much time for this. As soon as you find out who is longer and who is wider, please unsubscribe and read about the result.
Dixi

[attachmentid()=185867] [attachmentid()=185868]

This map is drawn on some unknown material. Some supposedly know how to distinguish these two species by imago, others only by caterpillars. So I would like to look at the maps on the tracks, because imago practically does not work. This is for sure, everyone agrees on this - except for Europeans, who persist in distinguishing them by their imago. They have here khyale drawn in the South of Ukraine and in the Crimea, where it is not reliably present, only alfakariensis.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 31.10.2013 18: 57

And this is how the Grieshuber distribution draws them. Well, this is as an addition to what was above. As we can see, there are a lot of opinions, and the publications from which the maps are taken are all fresh.

[attachmentid()=185869] [attachmentid()=185870]

This map is drawn on some unknown material. Some supposedly know how to distinguish these two species by imago, others only by caterpillars. So I would like to look at the maps on the tracks, because imago practically does not work. This is for sure, everyone agrees on this - except for Europeans, who persist in distinguishing them by their imago.

I understand everything. Then I really don't see any point in maintaining this conversation, because it looks very much like a standard one:

Two cowboy rules.
rule one. the cowboy is always right.
rule two. if the cowboy is wrong, then see rule one.

Good luck with your research

I understand everything. Then I really don't see any point in maintaining this conversation, because it looks very much like a standard one:

Two cowboy rules.
rule one. the cowboy is always right.
rule two. if the cowboy is wrong, then see rule one.

Good luck with your research

Stas, people don't work for nothing after all. In Ukraine, these butterflies are specially trained, and they are reliably distinguished by their caterpillars. In addition, there is other information about them. There is no hiale in Crimea, only alfakariensis. So I have no confidence in these European maps - the source material is not trustworthy.

And this is how the Grieshuber distribution draws them. Well, this is as an addition to what was above. As we can see, there are a lot of opinions, and the publications from which the maps are taken are all fresh.

[attachmentid()=185869] [attachmentid()=185870]

Grieshuber draws more plausibly, and his chiale goes all the way to the Tien Shan.

Well, this is a misconception about the origin of the name. The author of it is called erate, and he naturally studied Latin and Greek at the gymnasium. Erate in the direct meaning of "beloved", and in the figurative adjective erate "lovely, sweet, pleasant". Erato is a derivative with a different suffix. Believe me, as a linguist who also studied at the classical Department of the Moscow State University Faculty of Philology.

And I trusted Yu. P. Nekrutenko. Is an error coming out?

And I trusted Yu. P. Nekrutenko. Is an error coming out?

Mistake. In Russian, you should write "erate" or (in Latinized form) "erata" (as well as hiala=hiale, adippa=adippe).

This post was edited by sergenicko - 31.10.2013 19: 15

Both species fly in many areas together, making contact in a broad front along the edge of biotopes, and at the same time , for example, in southern Russia. But they don't cross, they don't dissolve.

And now about this. "don't cross" and "don't dissolve" are slightly different things. As for crossing, no one has yet given a positive or negative answer, because outwardly butterflies practically do not differ. You observe caterpillars, of which the spotted ones are associated with elm, and that's pretty much all. As for the "dissolution", there is also a problem - why the area of the hyala does not expand to the south, although there seem to be no biological obstacles. There is a feeling that it is there just and dissolve in alfakariensis. The wide sympatricity zone of chiala and alfakariensis in Western Europe is not confirmed by facts - as a rule, localities are determined by the appearance of butterflies, and not by caterpillars. At least I haven't seen a description of the range and / or a map of the tracks. The genetic difference between taxa is also very vague - in Romania, 2.65% COI was calculated on randomly selected material. More accurate Germans determined a very insignificant distance - 1,9%.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 31.10.2013 19: 37

If only someone could catch caterpillars of two species flying in a wide front and show that they are different species based on normal genetic differences, grow butterflies out of them, show unambiguous diagnostic signs, show that if there are hybrids at the junction of their ranges, then they are not further inland, and close the question. But as I understand it, no one is going to do anything like this, since everyone already knows everything. Sadness...

If only someone could catch caterpillars of two species flying in a wide front and show that they are different species based on normal genetic differences, grow butterflies out of them, show unambiguous diagnostic signs, show that if there are hybrids at the junction of their ranges, then they are not further inland, and close the question. But as I understand it, no one is going to do anything like this, since everyone already knows everything. Sadness...

Maybe you missed it - I found a neat German work, where the COI distance between A and X is only 1.9%, i.e. nothing at all (see the link above). As for the caterpillars, it is necessary to specify the range of taxa for them, but only for imagos, which in some places seem to differ, in some places definitely do not.

In modern practice, 2% of the differences in COI are species differences. The figure has not yet been disputed by anyone, and therefore it is valid.

As for the area of the hyala, it is interesting to see how it survives, for example, in the semi-deserts of Kazakhstan. You can also find other absurdities in the maps drawn by different yellowheads - meaning? We need a total revision of the available material (in a bunch of museums, private collections, etc.) - who finances this work? The problem with twin species is that they differ quite poorly

In modern practice, 2% of the differences in COI are species differences. The figure has not yet been disputed by anyone, and therefore it is valid.

She's the elusive Joe type who will challenge her. Both geneticists and taxonomists don't care about it. In fact, of course, there are subspecies that differ in much greater distance, and even populations. In addition, alfacariensis with chiala in Germany is 1.9%, which is below the threshold.

She's the elusive Joe type who will challenge her. Both geneticists and taxonomists don't care about it. In fact, of course, there are subspecies that differ in much greater distance, and even populations. In addition, alfacariensis with chiala in Germany is 1.9%, which is below the threshold.

This raises only one question : how was the material determined?
In this key, the number may be, cough cough, not quite correct

This raises only one question : how was the material determined?
In this vein, the figure may be, cough cough, not quite correct

So it was determined - by eye. But the Germans are a neat bunch, so I hope they selected butterflies with pronounced features from two taxa for sequencing. As for the notorious 2%, ask Molek. geneticists will be laughed at.

I have an outrageously simple suggestion for all the participants in the dispute.

Next summer, collect hyala and alfakariensis caterpillars in alcohol at an age when they are easily distinguished. And pass these caterpillars to Anton. After sequencing a guaranteed specific material, it will be possible to talk about objective differences or... you know that. And the results are sent to print. So this Gordian knot will be cut. And according to our appearance, we can build a vegetable garden here until spring - but what about this? I looked at the types of alfacariensis, and the type of hyala is available online (Linnean Collection). But there are no differences to catch...

I found this article a long time ago, but here I am about the same thing - it would be necessary to do on our material and on tracks.

By the way, they have not written how they distinguished X and A. In the methods they wrote that they took the legs of imago. But then they wrote that they are indistinguishable by imago. They referred to other authors that they are distinguishable by their tracks... therefore, I would like to believe that they took their feet from the output material. But then it would be necessary to mention this in the methods, since this is important. But they didn't mention it. So the show is the same-the guys really wanted it to be two types. And the same nice guy Hebert sequenced it again. And he sequenced the same COI in order to demonstrate the" coolness " of barcoding. Amen.

This post was edited by ayc - 31.10.2013 20: 02

I have an outrageously simple suggestion for all the participants in the dispute.

Next summer, collect hyala and alfakariensis caterpillars in alcohol at an age when they are easily distinguished. And pass these caterpillars to Anton. After sequencing a guaranteed specific material, it will be possible to talk about objective differences or... you know that. And the results are sent to print. So this Gordian knot will be cut. And according to our appearance, we can build a vegetable garden here until spring - but what about this? I looked at the types of alfacariensis, and the type of hyala is available online (Linnean Collection). But there are no differences to catch...

That would be great! But it is better to take a picture of the caterpillars and hatch - to see the phenotype of the butterfly. And by the summer, we will find good markers of speciation in the yolks and it will become even easier.

So it was determined - by eye. But the Germans are a neat bunch, so I hope they selected butterflies with pronounced features from two taxa for sequencing. As for the notorious 2%, ask Molek. geneticists will be laughed at.

Molek. geneticists deal with molek. genetics. Taxonomists do taxonomy, but they can use molek. genetics. Differences in approach, experience, goals and objectives.

I found this article a long time ago, but here I am about the same thing - it would be necessary to do on our material and on tracks.

By the way, they have not written how they distinguished X and A. In the methods they wrote that they took the legs of imago. But then they wrote that they are indistinguishable by imago. The conclusion is the same - the guys really wanted it to be two types. And the same Hebert sequenced it again. And he sequenced the same COI in order to demonstrate the" steepness " of barcoing. Amen.

Ralichie alfakariensis and hiale is a type of "sacred cow" of Europeans. There is another such pair - napi and bryoniae. Then it goes out, then it goes out. With daplidice and edusa, it seems that they decided that there is still one species (according to data in Italy), although geographically the extreme populations are as much as 8% distant.

Molek. geneticists deal with molek. genetics. Taxonomists do taxonomy, but they can use molek. genetics. Differences in approach, experience, goals and objectives.

But it was not geneticists who came up with 2%, but someone from taxonomists, and the province went dancing. On average, this is true in a hospital, but in particular it is not.

But it is better to take a picture of the caterpillars and hatch - to see the phenotype of the butterfly.

Above in the topic, there are already hatched butterflies, and an attempt to find distinctive features.

Above in the topic, there are already hatched butterflies, and an attempt to find distinctive features.

But it is best to start with the tracks, which differ reliably. If they give a high percentage, then the butterflies will probably do the same. At least finally determine whether there is a noticeable distance between them and what order.

Above in the topic, there are already hatched butterflies, and an attempt to find distinctive features.

Can I get the legs of these butterflies for DNA testing? If not, then you will have to start again, which is what Stas suggests.

isn't there a lot of (h)hits from your feed?
Weemers, Herbert, Stradomsky, Wahlberg, Neelin, ten Hagen.

Well, ask them seriously - yes, they will say, 2% as a rule. But all of them will name deviations in both directions. There is an insignificant distance between Ligea and Euryale in terms of COI, although hardly anyone doubts that they are different species.

But it is best to start with the tracks, which differ reliably. If they give a high percentage, then the butterflies will probably do the same. At least finally determine whether there is a noticeable distance between them and what order.

It should not be measured by distance, but by a fixed difference - at least a single nucleotide substitution, one variant of which is inherent in all X, and the second is inherent in all A-even if it gives only 0.001% of the differences.

But it wasn't geneticists who came up with 2%, but someone from taxonomists,

In Wiemers & Fiedler [Wiemers M., Fiedler K. 2007. Does the DNA barcoding gap exist? – a case study in blue butterflies (Lepidoptera: Lycaenidae) // Frontiers in Zoology. 4 (8). 16 pp.] based on the analysis of a huge amount of material (236348 interspecific comparisons), it is shown that in 95% of cases, interspecific differences in DNA sequences in pigeons are 1.9% or more.

By the way, what about the maps provided above regarding the conclusions of Okoem and the company?
okoem, as far as I remember, according to your joint research, only alfakariensis lives in the Crimea(As far as I remember, it is alfakariensis, I can't check, the last site on the people of "Butterflies of the Crimea" was redirected to a new address, which is currently not working!)
But they give maps where either the hyale is indicated for the Crimea at all, or a mixed area is indicated.
Why is that?
By the way quite specific and important as in my opinion question

"Other repeated patterns in contact zones suggest 'suture zones' (Remington
1957) caused by secondary contact of whole faunas from different Pleistocene or
earlier refuges, especially the Iberian ("Atlanto-Mediterranean"), and Italian +
Balkans refuges ("Ponto-Mediterranean", de Lattin, 1957). Iphiclides podalirius and
feisthameli, Pontia edusa and daplidice, Colias hyale and alfacariensis, Lycaena
alciphron and gordius, Melitaea athalia and celadussa, and Melanargia galathea and
lachesis, appear to belong to this category" [Descimon&Mallet : 21]. All these "non-species" are of recent origin and are accepted by some as species, while others are disputed.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 31.10.2013 20: 14