Jaundice (Colias)

And separately about morals. There is such a great molecular scientist Rob DeSall. For many years, he is the head of the Department of Molecular Systematics of the American Museum of Natural History, editor of many journals, editor-in-chief of the prestigious PLOS-One and Mitochondrial DNA. In the early 90's he published this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7888749
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1411508
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8224109
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8020614

that is, in those years, the kid discovered klondike-the ability to work with the DNA of extinct species buried in amber! But what is surprising.... these 4 articles are all that he wrote in his life on ancient DNA. That is, he never again touched this gold mine discovered by him, thanks to which he made a rapid career, making his name rumble all over the world and literally taking the most prestigious position from the cradle, becoming the head of a prestigious institute! What about the others? The rest of us ran like crazy to extract DNA from amber. Thousands of people all over the world and.... no one has gotten a single piece in years! The topic died. But the person who falsified it just blooms and smells! Simply because he holds high positions and has connections. And no one wants to spoil their career by exposing the Great. And there's no point in it - everyone sees everything anyway.

This post was edited by ayc - 02.11.2013 17: 26

In captivity? How do you imagine that a female in captivity will choose the right plant? The " correct "one may be slightly wilted, and she will put it aside for a fresh neighboring one. Still, it is better to choose a site overgrown with various legumes in a place of mass summer and examine it. Why bother with eggs if there are enough caterpillars? I hope that they can be distinguished from caterpillars of other yolks - I forgot to ask.

It has already been said that the female leans on her favorite plant, even on a wilted one, like a machine gun. And on the unloved can carry three testicles in a lifetime and die. Despite the fact that geese will eat it well. I've seen this happen more than once. And then you can not grow eggs.

It has already been said that the female leans on her favorite plant, even on a wilted one, like a machine gun. And on the unloved can carry three testicles in a lifetime and die. Despite the fact that geese will eat it well. I've seen this happen more than once. And then you can not grow eggs.

Perhaps so. But it would be nice to check both methods, especially since your experience will be objected to, " this is such a capricious female, and the rest are promiscuous." If the erate is massive, then there will be a lot of caterpillars, and it is not difficult to estimate how many of them are on which plant.

Naturally, this should be done not for one or even 20 females, but for a much larger number. Then there will be no objections.

It has already been said that the female leans on her favorite plant, even on a wilted one, like a machine gun. And on the unloved can carry three testicles in a lifetime and die.

Again, not about yolks, but an example from life. Pl. maracandicus rushes to the astragalus. And it lives only where the astragalus grows. So it was in the Don Delta. About 7-8 years ago, blackening of the sands began and Astragalus varius was almost completely displaced. However, the maracandicus is not extinct at all, but has adapted to the broom. Before the blackening, there was not a single caterpillar of maracandicus on the broom-only it mowed down from the astragalus. Now you can't mow the astragalus - it's virtually gone, but the maracandicus is mowed down from the broom. But S. spini I tried for three years to provoke to rush to anything but jost. Everything was ignored by dozens of females, even related species of buckthorn. So there is no view to view.

This post was edited by bora - 02.11.2013 17: 26

Orange pigment is a derivative of yellow. That is, if only one chemical reaction did not take place under the influence or due to the absence of some factors, then the orange color will not be -....
the synthesis of these pigments occurs as follows:
colorless And similar in-vo - > With vetlo-yellow -> W elto -> W elto-O rangevoe - > O rangevoe - > K rasnoe.

About pigments and their formation - very, very interesting! Could you share a link to the source of the information?

I have not seen any studies on the regulation of genital formation in the ontogenesis of insects

Danilevsky (1961) reports on the effect of photoperiod and temperature on the structure and size of cicadas ' genitalia. In addition, depending on the photoperiod and temperature, the size and appearance of the imago change.
Similar data (color dependence on photoperiod) are also given for butterflies.
By the way, in the Crimea, "erata" is most often found in autumn - when the day is short and the temperature is low...

It is not quite a correct comparison, since in rabbits or hyalas, you need to compare the preference of a pair of species. Although an interesting case. And it would be interesting to see if the females now recognize the astragalus or have forgotten it.

Similar things are happening on Sophora - everything that can eat legumes is rushing at her like a frenzy. But this plant is rare, and where it does not exist (that is, almost everywhere), butterflies rush to other types of legumes.

Again, not about yolks, but an example from life. Pl. maracandicus rushes to the astragalus. And it lives only where the astragalus grows. So it was in the Don Delta. About 7-8 years ago, blackening of the sands began and Astragalus varius was almost completely displaced. However, the maracandicus is not extinct at all, but has adapted to the broom. Before the blackening, there was not a single caterpillar of maracandicus on the broom-only it mowed down from the astragalus. Now you can't mow the astragalus - it's virtually gone, but the maracandicus is mowed down from the broom. But S. spini I tried for three years to provoke to rush to anything but jost. Everything was ignored by dozens of females, even related species of buckthorn. So there is no view to view.

About erate, it seems clear that she has a graduated preference, and without alfalfa, sweet clover and licorice, she will somehow manage. Although I wonder what its number is in such places. It is a pity that they do not fly close to me (neither in Novosibirsk, nor in Moscow), I would have watched.

About pigments and their formation - very, very interesting! Could you share a link to the source of the information?

There is such a book, for example-somewhere on page 16
http://www.tower.com/development-evolution.../wapi/101939743

It is not quite a correct comparison, since in rabbits or hyalas, you need to compare the preference of a pair of species. Although an interesting case. And it would be interesting to see if the females now recognize the astragalus or have forgotten it.

Similar things are happening on Sophora - everything that can eat legumes is rushing at her like a frenzy. But this plant is rare, and where it does not exist (that is, almost everywhere), butterflies rush to other types of legumes.

I didn't forget the females, at least I saw their activity on the lone bushes of astragalus. But in the mass - on the broom. And in other populations, for example, on the sands of the mouth of the Kundryuchya River, the picture is different. There is a mass of broom and astragalus, but the broom maracandicus is indifferent.

I didn't forget the females, at least I saw their activity on the lone bushes of astragalus. But in the mass - on the broom. And in other populations, for example, on the sands of the mouth of the Kundryuchya River, the picture is different. There is a mass of broom and astragalus, but the broom maracandicus is indifferent.

Well, there! Speciation in action! In 500 years, this forum will argue about whether one or two of these species, one of which eats astragalus, and the other-broom

About erate, it seems clear that she has a graduated preference, and without alfalfa, sweet clover and licorice, she will somehow manage. Although I wonder what its number is in such places. It is a pity that they do not fly close to me (neither in Novosibirsk, nor in Moscow), I would have watched.

Its number in these places is very significant-comparable to Crocea. Even today, I saw one lonely erata in the broom grove and photographed it.

By the way, in the Crimea, "erata" is most often found in autumn - when the day is short and the temperature is low...

Only 2 orange "crocea" were caught in late June-early July, all others from the end of July to the end of the season.
Only 3 chrysodons were caught in late April-May. Everything else - from the end of June to sunset.

By the way, in the Crimea, "erata" is most often found in autumn - when the day is short and the temperature is low...

And what in general in the Crimea (according to your observations, of course) is being done with crocea and erata? Do they behave like different species, or do they merge in ecstasy? And are there any observations that caterpillars eat? And so far, information is only about Volgograd.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 02.11.2013 18: 15

No. This is not the ppc of echo and the new taxonomy. Molecular science is cool if applied intelligently and honestly. There is a complete ppc here in human mores, when inconvenient results are thrown out, a part of the work that can refute the protected hypothesis is ignored or hushed up, the methodology is distorted - and all in order to get the desired conclusions. To increase their prestige and well-being. There were such cases before the outbreak.

Absolutely agree!
I even realized that I was not so much doubting as "denying" the molecular data, but this is stupid. No need to deny, just doubt

So, to summarize.

Alpha and hyale are the same species.
Arguments. Differences in mtDNA are not an indicator, Dinka and al. crooks.
Differences in tracks are not an indicator.
External differences are not an indicator, they float.
Genital differences are not an indicator, swim.
Hybridization is not proven, just no one looked.

Crocea and erate are different species.
Arguments. mtDNA identity is not an indicator.
Caterpillar identity is not an indicator.
External differences may float, but they float correctly, this is an indicator.
Genital differences may float, but they swim correctly, this is an indicator.
Hybridization is not an indicator.

It's all very logical.

Logical, but somehow too sad

The results in my understanding are as follows: the criteria are in order of importance:

I'm sorry, but myrmidon and chrysothemum are very different. There are no" parallels " with both hotly discussed pairs here. Chrysothemum, especially the female, can be confused with croceus, and with the bright orange form of erate (especially in summer form), and (but only the female!) with myrmidon, but chrysothemum has a pronounced seasonal dimorphism. Its 1st and (if it crashes) 3rd generations are very peculiar. In my area, this is an occasionally appearing, apparently temporarily rooting view.

And what in general in the Crimea (according to your observations, of course) is being done with crocea and erata? Do they behave like different species, or do they merge in ecstasy? And are there any observations that caterpillars eat?

I don't see two types in Crimea. I see one, polymorphic. Yellow forms never fly by themselves, always only as an admixture to saffron.
If the extreme phenotypes are defined in Crocea and erata, then it is not clear where to define the intermediate forms.
As for natural food plants, I have too few such observations to draw any conclusions. I saw the egg-laying of a yellow female on a vyazel.

I'm sorry, but myrmidon and chrysothemum are very different. There are no" parallels " with both hotly discussed pairs here. Chrysothemum, especially the female, can be confused with croceus, and with the bright orange form of erate (especially in summer form), and (but only the female!) with myrmidon, but chrysothemum has a pronounced seasonal dimorphism. Its 1st and (if it crashes) 3rd generations are very peculiar. In my area, this is an occasionally appearing, apparently temporarily rooting species.

Lavr, this is not about similarity, but about a possible speciation pathway.

I don't see two types in Crimea. I see one, polymorphic. Yellow forms never fly by themselves, always only as an admixture to saffron.
If the extreme phenotypes are defined in Crocea and erata, then it is not clear where to define the intermediate forms.
As for natural food plants, I have too few such observations to draw any conclusions. I saw the egg-laying of a yellow female on a vyazel.

Good.
This is my first experience with COI tree drawing software. Anton will correct me if I lied on principle. Almost all hialys and alfacariensis according to the GenBank data - I did not take into account 2 incomplete drugs that lied, and another one that is clearly not from this group. But to the eye, the tree turned out to be green .

This post was edited by sergenicko - 02.11.2013 19: 45

Pictures:

sarept_hyaleGB.png — (4.41к)

Lavr, this is not about similarity, but about a possible speciation pathway.

If this question is interesting, then poor people like us study morphology and especially genitalia and assess the degree of" similarity and kinship " (as someone from the great ones said, either Zherikhin or Rasnitsyn). And the rich are busy with electronics. But here it is clear that the relationship between myrmidon and chrysothemum is not so close, and both of these species have moved more strongly away from our sheep.

By the way, here, I climbed some eyelids on Butterflies of the Caucasus and could only tear it off:
==Dinca V., Zakharov E. V., Hebert P. D. N., Vila R. 2010. Complete DNA barcode reference library for a country’s butterfly fauna reveals high performance for temperate Europe. Proc. R. Soc. B (2011) 278, 347–355.==
This is a disgusting bibliographic description! The title of the collection, its volume and issue are not clear. If it is " prociding royale etomol. social media in London", then it should be there.

And no cladogram is shown. If, as it is written in the annotation of croceus and erate species, the analysis was ONLY for CO1, then this is not proof of genetic uniformity and conspecificity. Boris Vitalievich has already told us more than once that both Korydon and Bellargus are "not species" in this parameter, and there are other examples.
Regarding the material: Gennady, I've been somewhere! I look for it myself in stacks for comparison. But since Croceus flew en masse with me, and I served in the army, I couldn't even catch a lot of fmzs and didn't consider it necessary - who would catch piles of such fast-flying banals with their hands??, alas. But there should be more material from the Caucasus, I've already been there with a net.

.....communicating closely with Western colleagues, I see that the principle of "you can't cut down what's written with a pen with an axe" is hypertrophied in their brains. That is, if one person copies some nonsense from another, then the third person will not hesitate to copy it for himself, since the fact of publication makes the information beyond doubt. Therefore, information about distribution and feed in a large number of publications is correspondence, which is rarely checked by anyone. That's why they write alfalfa first, because that's what everyone says.

Yes, it is. Someone wrote it 100 years ago, and everyone quotes it. And it is no less flourishing in our country. But on the other hand, it is impossible to extrapolate the results of laboratory experiments, when the caterpillar starts to eat semolina from hunger, to nature. In nature, it often happens that the female lays her eggs on something narrow, maybe even one, and it varies in different populations. And the caterpillars can spread out and acquire secondary polyphagia. In nature, there are a lot of monophagies and narrow oligophagies at the population level, but when these facts are lumped together (and with the addition of the results of bullying caterpillars in the laboratory) in the articles of the researchers, it "turns" into the widest polyphagy. Literature on so-called "pests", dissertations with generalizations of trophic features-especially abound in such"generalizations".

Podalirium has no climate-related forms.

This still needs to be proved. The same small South Ural subspecies, "with a slightly different pattern", may just be the shape of the temperature (more correctly: morph) nominative. It is necessary to grow a series in the conditions of "southern heat". Maybe the forage plant also (or it only) affects the "appearance". You need to check everything experimentally. At one time, he bred Ussuri swallowtails. Well, what a "clear" subspecies externally! And when growing on Lipetsk dill, it became the usual "local" in the first "harvest"! Endless divination: "Those yolks or not those" ... - in this topic for the third year. And everything should be checked experimentally: slip different food plants to the females in the cages-observing what they are laying for; "let" the bred ones in the aviary to the males of different "looks" to see if they will mate; and so on. Then the truth will appear.

And here it is suggested that Croceus in one generation turns into erata because of the cold. This is hard to believe, because under the described (and even much worse) conditions, croceus thrives in the European highlands and does not turn to erata.

Thriving? Or does it fly? On the steppes and meadows, croceus can climb to the highest mountains, give a second or third generation in the subalpic. In winter, the hatched caterpillars will freeze out. Next year, it will all happen again... Entomologists will also write about the high-altitude croceus population! Here again, you need to check everything with science - to find overwintered croceus caterpillars in those mountains.

This still needs to be proved. The same small South Ural subspecies, "with a slightly different pattern", may just be the shape of the temperature (more correctly: morph) nominative. It is necessary to grow a series in the conditions of "southern heat". Maybe the forage plant also (or it only) affects the "appearance". You need to check everything experimentally. At one time, he bred Ussuri swallowtails. Well, what a "clear" subspecies externally! And when growing on Lipetsk dill, it became the usual "local" in the first "harvest"! Endless divination: "Those yolks or not those" ... - in this topic for the third year. And everything should be checked experimentally: slip different food plants to the females in the cages-observing what they are laying for; "let" the bred ones in the aviary to the males of different "looks" to see if they will mate; and so on. Then the truth will appear.

Thriving? Or does it fly? On the steppes and meadows, croceus can climb to the highest mountains, give a second or third generation in the subalpic. In winter, the hatched caterpillars will freeze out. Next year, it will all happen again... Entomologists will also write about the high-altitude croceus population! Here again, you need to check everything with science - to find croceus caterpillars that have overwintered in those mountains.

I don't argue with all this, and they served food in a cold climate (Moscow, an example) much smaller than the southern ones. And everything would be true about croceus, if I myself in Bulgaria at an altitude of approx.2000 did not see a large population of croceus, not diluted with eras. It is unlikely that croceus fly there from the plain. And in the same Poland and Germany, where croceus lives in the middle zone, the climate is not very warm, while wet. Croceus is such a common European butterfly that its transformation into an erata would certainly be observed. Orange erats are not uncommon in northern populations, where it is colder than in the Rostov region. It seems to me that the solution to the croceus/erate problem should not be simplified from the threshold.

Here you are again with the same idea And you did not think that what is now observed with the groups under discussion-maybe there is the same merger of subspecies in a very large intergradation zone, because this merger does not happen like this at a time, but it takes time! And how long does it take, 1000 years, or 10000?

On a single Voronezh hectare - in 10,000 years? Roman, you are a bio-humorist.

 
In order to show that these are different species, you need to show reliable reproductive isolation, for example, the method that Evgeny Karolinsky told me about, applicable in the situation with the isolation of two new species from the Leptidea reali species, distinguishable only by molecular means, while as confirmation an experiment was performed in which 100% ethological preference for their own and rejection was shown alien species between pairs of discovered molecular species, something like that with Croceus and erate, and with ai-that would be-yes!

I subscribe with both hands to your words. I wrote about this in the previous message.

It is unlikely that croceus fly there from the plain.

"Yeah, I don't think so.." - thought Stirlitz, looking at Pastor Schlag, who was leaving on skis. But we have science. And we are scientists! Or-just network chatter? Everything should be checked by experiment! I think that such a wonderful, migratory flyer as the crocea can fly to the highlands. In the hot summer, the meadows are warmed up. And what - we will argue, whose divination is more correct? Are you a scientist or a psychic?

This post was edited by Wild Yuri - 03.11.2013 01: 01

"An experiment, gentlemen... An experiment, " said Baron Munchausen, climbing into the cannon tube. For this I bow down, I don't want to participate in this empty chatter anymore.

"Yeah, I don't think so.." - said Stirlitz, looking at Pastor Schlag, who was skiing away. But we have science. And we are scientists! Or-just network chatter? Everything should be checked by experiment! I think that such a wonderful, migratory flyer as the crocea can fly to the highlands. In the hot summer, the meadows are warmed up. And what - we will argue, whose divination is more correct? Are you a scientist or a psychic?

I'm a scientist, but you can't learn everything from your own experience, that's what scientific literature is for. In Bulgaria, I looked at this population for a week, croceus flew without any visible admixture of erata, while 1000 m below the yellow erata was dominated. But I specifically watched for erebia and boloria, and not for jaundice. И болгары это заметли: Erate: "Distribution in Bulgaria: Mainly in the lowlands, but occasionally strays or migrants can be seen even at high altitudes." Croceus: "Distribution in Bulgaria: The whole country. Habitat: Not associated with particular habitat, can be encountered anywhere in open places."

This post was edited by sergenicko - 02.11.2013 21: 24

Yes, it is. Someone wrote it 100 years ago, and everyone quotes it. And it is no less flourishing in our country. But on the other hand, it is impossible to extrapolate the results of laboratory experiments, when the caterpillar starts to eat semolina from hunger, to nature. In nature, it often happens that the female lays her eggs on something narrow, maybe even one, and it varies in different populations. And the caterpillars can spread out and acquire secondary polyphagia. In nature, there are a lot of monophagies and narrow oligophagies at the population level, but when these facts are lumped together (and with the addition of the results of bullying caterpillars in the laboratory) in the articles of the researchers, it "turns" into the widest polyphagy. Literature on so-called "pests", dissertations with generalizations of trophic features-especially abound in such"generalizations".

Therefore, no one in their right mind will slip semolina porridge to hungry caterpillars and draw conclusions from this! Mono / oligophagy as a characteristic of a species / subspecies / population is derived not from caterpillar tastes and appetites, but from the sense of smell of females.

I'm a scientist, but you can't learn everything from your own experience, that's what scientific literature is for. In Bulgaria, I looked at this population for a week, croceus flew without any visible admixture of erata, while 1000 m below the yellow erata was dominated.

Well, temperature doesn't necessarily have to be the only reason to switch between the "crocea" and "erate"morphotypes. The reason may be a shortage or excess of several substances- "building materials", which may depend on the climate, nutrition and ... yes, on genetics, too. And from symbionts, which butterflies have in bulk and which affect adaptations and the balance of substances and the work of genes. How do you like the hypothesis that crocea is an infected form of erate, where in the west and south the infection is total, and in the east the infection is less widespread due to some reasons.

So I support Yuri Munghausen with both hands - we need to get reliable information about their ecology and ethology. Well, also in the genomes to rummage-the benefit of the genome of the Spanish crocea I have, soon there will be several different eras.

Finally I found the boxes where I have old crocea, erate, etc
. Gennady, first of all for you. From Volgograd (SW outskirts) there is a male crocea (6.09.1976) absolutely classic. As well as erate male (25.07.1977) and female (22.09.1976). And the orange male erate (23.09.1976), I can't mistake him for a hybrid (see below). I didn't know then that these platitudes would become so interesting and I didn't take them for the collection. But according to the records, crocea and erate were common there in 76-77, while the orazhevaya erate was caught 1 time (see above), there was also a "hyala" (it was not caught), but there was not a single myrmidon. Maybe there just wasn't a broom tree in the steppe, and you didn't run after every butterfly even with a net, but I didn't have one there.

More than 15 erates are collected in Turkmenistan (Annau), among them there are light orange males and females with varying degrees of width of orange elements. This is not a hybrid, because in those parts there are no orange yolks, but the natural form of this species. And there are white females, one of which approaches the whitish form of crocea by darkening the border.

More than 15 crocea and several erates are collected in the NW Caucasus (Psebai and Khosta), early 80's. All orange males of crocea have a rich background, 1 slightly paler, and are generally absolutely classic. Females are either very rich orange, but there are transitions to the myrmidon type (you need to cook it!), or white with transitions to white erata. One is worn with a faint orange color on a white background. And there is not a single obvious myrmidon in those fees. And no orange erate.
That is, I can't say from my small non-targeted collections that I see "hybrids" between crocea and erate males, but among white females it is quite possible.

Meanwhile, according to COI, erate and croceus are really unusually close - several specimens are slightly different (erate amdensis, a pair of croceus-one from Romania, the other from unknown sources, and the most distant erata from somewhere according to Chichvarkin et al., so Anton will specify), but even those are within 0.2-0.4%. The bulk of eras from different places, polygraphus and Western European croceus on COI are just clones, regardless of the method of drawing a cladogram. I was surprised by polygraphuses, which still give the impression of a separate, well-formed subspecies.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 11: 29

Pictures:

erate_croceus_UPGMA.png — (153.3к)

Sergey, thank you very much, I have looked through the works of Dinch and others very fluently so far.
There is only CO1, and this is an approximate analysis that does not give a reliable answer to the question of species - not species. There are negligible distances between good views, once again. And by the way, in one place the authors say that genitals do not differ, and in the photo you can see beautiful differences! And they do not study the genitals of females, in some species they are perfectly different when the genitals of males are similar. They are bad "genitalists". They should be trained to watch at least 10 genitals a day thoughtfully.
As for erate and crocea, the question is open in my opinion. While there is no special evidence of their conspecificity, since it is impossible for CO1 (then Corydon and bellargus are also not species!). Hybrids among related species are not very rare in nature, and even their abundance does not prove anything yet. As for their fecundity, nothing is known.
The first thing that comes to mind is that in the southern steppes, for some reason, the crocea is experiencing a long-term decline in numbers, so it is not enough. This is an absolutely common thing in nature. Maybe, when rare, crocea can't find a partner quickly and throw themselves at (k) erate. There is a kind of assimilation of a small species, but how far will this go? As long as there are refugia with dense populations of crocea, this species should live.

Meanwhile, in terms of COI, Erate and Croceus are really unusually close ....

Sergey, stop putting out your first toys to people. Just take my word for it - you shouldn't. In a month or two, you will appreciate my advice. Take your time.

And you go into the same dark steppe-you compare variants of a piece of the COI gene alone, and not butterflies or their taxa! That. That the COI of butterfly A is (not)similar to the COI of butterfly B only indirectly suggests that butterflies A and B may be (not)related. Otherwise, a person will need to be divided into 2 genera with several dozen species.[b]

Sergey, stop putting out your first toys to people. Just take my word for it - you shouldn't. You'll appreciate my advice in a month or two. Take your time.

And you go into the same dark steppe-you compare variants of a piece of the COI gene alone, and not butterflies or their taxa! That. That the COI of butterfly A is (not)similar to the COI of butterfly B only indirectly suggests that butterflies A and B may be (not)related. Otherwise, a person will need to be divided into 2 genera with several dozen species.[b]

Anton, I understand this perfectly well and I'm not going to abuse my "knowledge". I posted these erats exactly because, firstly, nothing else will work for this parameter, and secondly, something is wrong with their COI and just for these taxa, it may not work. I understand Europe, but why polygraphus? What could have happened to this locus that it was preserved? After all, the consubspecificity of erate and croceus, despite the resistance of the material, is being tried to stretch precisely because of this COI.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 11: 54

Anton, I understand this perfectly well and I'm not going to abuse my "knowledge". I posted these erats exactly because, firstly, nothing else will work for this parameter, and secondly, something is wrong with their COI and just for these taxa, it may not work. I understand Europe, but why polygraphus? What could have happened to this locus that it was preserved? After all, the consubspecificity of erate and croceus, despite the resistance of the material, is being tried to stretch precisely because of this COI.

And why should it be preserved? Over the course of several thousand years, the proto-erate Crocea spread across Eurasia. COI did not have time to change during this time. Although I have a central-Chinese erate and polygraphuses are still different from European ones. A little, but clearly.

The drop-down my era is also an era, not a European one, presented and defined by Churkin. But since none of the molecular scientists have found it yet, I'll hide it for a while and keep quiet about where it's coming from.

And why should it be preserved? Over the course of several thousand years, the proto-erate Crocea spread across Eurasia. COI did not have time to change during this time.

Let's assume that during the last glaciation, gene drift occurred in a short-lived refugium in Western Europe, which resulted in the formation of the croceus phenotype, which gradually expanded its range and met the eastern erata. Different trophic connections of bast in a row.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 13: 54

Let's assume that during the last glaciation, gene drift occurred in a short-lived refugium, which resulted in the formation of the croceus phenotype, which gradually expanded its range and met the eastern erata. Different trophic connections of bast in a row.

The phenotype of Crocea and erate was formed earlier-simultaneously with the formation of the genus Colias. Glaciation began to end about 18 thousand years ago. This is enough to change the food connections with different types of legumes several thousand times.

There is no evidence that the crocea phenotype is associated with any particular gene or genotype. Therefore, it is completely inappropriate to blame genes and the uneven distribution of their alleles for the formation of phenotypes. And in the end, gene drift is the flow of alleles between populations. What is drift in a refugium and what it can explain is not clear to me.

The phenotype of Crocea and erate was formed earlier-simultaneously with the formation of the genus Colias. Glaciation began to end about 18 thousand years ago. This is enough to change the food connections with different types of legumes several thousand times.

There is no evidence that the crocea phenotype is associated with any particular gene or genotype. Therefore, it is completely inappropriate to blame genes and the uneven distribution of their alleles for the formation of phenotypes. And in the end, gene drift is the flow of alleles between populations. What is drift in a refugium and what it can explain is not clear to me.

But no, gene drift is not a drift. Drift ("offset") This is "the phenomenon of non-directional changes in the frequencies of allelic gene variants in a population due to random statistical reasons." This is exactly what happens in refugiums - in human history, by the way, too, when a "bottleneck" is formed. By definition, gene drift does not occur between populations - it occurs in one isolated population.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 14: 11

 
There is no evidence that the crocea phenotype is associated with any particular gene or genotype.

But there is no reverse data either. There is a phenotype, there are only guesses about its ontogenetic origin, there is no fact at all (Stradomsky's observation does not count - the experience is not yet complete).