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Jaundice (Colias)

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03.11.2013 14:30, rhopalocera.com

  The phenotype of Crocea and erate was formed earlier-simultaneously with the formation of the genus Colias. Glaciation began to end about 18 thousand years ago. This is enough to change the food connections with different types of legumes several thousand times.

There is no evidence that the crocea phenotype is associated with any particular gene or genotype. Therefore, it is completely inappropriate to blame genes and the uneven distribution of their alleles for the formation of phenotypes. And in the end, gene drift is the flow of alleles between populations. What is drift in a refugium and what it can explain is not clear to me.


Quite a bold statement. At a minimum, it is necessary to prove that this particular phenotype is the oldest in the genus. But...

Let's face it. Europe is a secondary forming center, the genus Colias has the maximum species diversity in a completely different region-mountainous Central and Central Asia. Species diversity is an important (though only indirect) proof of the existence of a formative center. A much more important proof is the primitiveness of the structure. And here in the Middle East and Central Asia-just a sea of bottled food for analysis. Who is the most primitive member of the genus at the moment? Where is it distributed? Are there any resettlement opportunities, and how does the species implement them? Have there been any such opportunities in the past, and have they been implemented? Is it possible to reconstruct the prototype of the most primitive type based on the review material (it is naive to assume that it has remained unchanged for the entire time of its existence)? What was this prototype like? What is the evolution strategy and what are the prototype's multi - moderation paths that were implemented successfully, and which ones were not?

Only after answering all these questions in a complex can we say something about which species in the genus are more ancient, and which are less so. Using information about Western European refugiums is generally useless. In front of the glacier, tundras moved-steppes that could easily serve as the very biotopes in which that very erata felt good. And since these tundra-steppes migrated together with the glacier, it is simply impossible to talk about the conservation of the species in refugiums. It is possible that some o populations existed for some time in the isolates against the background of plakor glaciation, but whether these isolates were formogenetic centers is a very big question that can hardly be fully proved.

03.11.2013 14:44, sergenicko

it is simply impossible to talk about the conservation of the species in refugiums.

Not a species, but a small population of Colias erate (or more correctly, if they are considered one species, which is similar to the truth, C. crocea, described earlier, in 1785). And for some reason you think of a refugium as something like a meadow surrounded by ice. We are talking about an isolated (whatever you want) small population for some time, the genotype of which formed the basis of the European croceus (and was recorded in Western Europe for some reason, it is possible that because of omnivore). And refugium is needed for drift - otherwise we will have to assume a long evolution, which contradicts the fact that no replacement has occurred in COI.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 16: 20

03.11.2013 17:42, ayc

Quite a bold statement. At a minimum, it is necessary to prove that this particular phenotype is the oldest in the genus. But...

We're talking about slightly different things. I'm not talking about the typological phenotype of the crocea taxon, but rather the developmental program that makes butterflies with morphologically similar traits. In other words, the morphotype of crocea is typical for heos, hyperborea, meadii, caucasica, and regia... and it has nothing to do with taxonomy and taxonomy. In other words, the ability to juggle color as you like. wing patterns, feeding habits, and other characteristics are a feature of the entire genus.

I agree about Europe-crocea is no longer drawn to the ancestral form, but to a marginal renegade smile.gif

And about ancestral forms... the entire range of morphotypes is present in both major branches of Colias: South American and all others. Therefore, it is difficult to say which type is primary. If on the molecular scale, then basal for Holarctic hyales are obtained... and if there were no South American branch, then the hyala could be called a basal form.

This post was edited by ayc - 03.11.2013 17: 52

03.11.2013 17:50, ayc

Not a species, but a small population of Colias erate (or more correctly, if they are considered one species, which is similar to the truth, C. crocea, described earlier, in 1785). And for some reason, you represent something like a meadow surrounded by ice as a refugium. We are talking about an isolated (whatever you want) small population for some time, the genotype of which formed the basis of the European croceus (and was recorded in Western Europe for some reason, it is possible that because of omnivore). And refugium is needed for drift - otherwise we will have to assume a long evolution, which contradicts the fact that no replacement has occurred in COI.

1. A long-diverged species could have taken COI from another species and ended up being "the same" with it
. Who said that crocea phenotypes are due to a specific genotype? What is known suggests rather the opposite.
3. Has spasmodic shaping been completely abolished? Environmental stresses, parasites-everything can dramatically affect the phenotype.

In a word, it is necessary to work. And to build on the Forum guesses I'm already pretty fed up.

03.11.2013 18:00, sergenicko

1. A long-diverged species could have taken COI from another species and ended up being "the same" with it
. Who said that crocea phenotypes are due to a specific genotype? What is known suggests rather the opposite.
3. Has spasmodic shaping been completely abolished? Environmental stresses, parasites-everything can dramatically affect the phenotype.

In a word, it is necessary to work. And to build guesses on the forum, I'm already pretty fed up.

Why not speculate? By the way, the construction of various (including stupid) hypotheses often motivates work in a direction that was not even thought about. "Who says crocea phenotypes are due to a specific genotype?" - this is the first thing that comes to mind - a stable phenotype in a large area and transitional forms only along the border of the ranges. And who compared the genomes? "Has spasmodic shaping been completely abolished? Environmental stresses, parasites-anything can dramatically affect the phenotype" - anything can. "Environmental stress" is a variant of gene drift, and worms need to be dealt with. By the way, there is a lot of material on Wolbachia in the bank on crocea, but I don't know what it is suitable for.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 18: 04

03.11.2013 18:14, Hierophis

On a single Voronezh hectare - in 10,000 years? Roman, you are a bio-humorist.


So I do not pretend to any assessment, I generally wrote it so that someone, well, for example, you, called your figure, for how many years could this be possible?
This is a likely dissolution of the hyale into alfacariensis, if it were two distinct subspecies that merged as a result of some reason.

And there is one more question-this difference in CO1, let's say 2%, is sufficient to consider the group as a species, for how long can they accumulate?

03.11.2013 19:03, sergenicko

So I do not pretend to any assessment, I generally wrote it so that someone, well, for example, you, called your figure, for how many years could this be possible?
This is a likely dissolution of the hyale into alfacariensis, if it were two distinct subspecies that merged as a result of some reason.

And there is one more question-this difference in CO1, let's say 2%, is sufficient to consider the group as a species, for how long can they accumulate?

The trick is that the formation of a new biological species can occur so quickly that the "right" number of substitutions will not have time to occur in mtDNA. And vice versa is also possible. The "species threshold" of 2% in bulavousykh is the average temperature in the hospital, a statistical universal.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 20: 04

03.11.2013 19:19, sergenicko

It is interesting how COI behaves differently in different insects:

Efficiency of COI application as a genosystematic and
phylogenetic marker in different taxonomic groups of animals
..........................

Legtails Intraspecific variability is low (1% divergence between haplotypes)
Dragonflies Intraspecific variability low or absent
Reticuloptera High intraspecific variability (up to 24 intraspecific haplotypes with
a divergence of 6%)
Lepidoptera have high intraspecific variability (up to 59 intraspecific haplotypes with
1.5% divergence).
Riders Inter-population variability, high sequence saturation
Bees Average intraspecific variability. Heteroplasmia. High
variability of protein amino acid composition
Ants Medium intraspecific variability
Sawflies Low or no
intraspecific variability Wasps Medium intraspecific variability
Psyllids High intraspecific variability (up to 30 intraspecific haplotypes with
low divergence)
Aphids Intraspecific variability low or absent
Bedbugs Intraspecific variability low or absent
Mosquitoes Average intraspecific variability (up to 12 intraspecific haplotypes with
a divergence of 2%)
There is no intraspecific variability in flies. Rarely-no differences
between sister
beetle species, low intraspecific variability, sometimes-interpopulation
variability. Divergence between species up to 30%
(Voronov, Buga, Kurchenko 2012 from Minsk, probably written true)

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 20: 00

03.11.2013 20:28, Hierophis

sergenicko, thank you, intersenye data. Although in general, of course, it would not be bad to understand the essence of this method, otherwise I do not know the "mechanics" of the appearance of these differences at all, in such a situation it remains only to believe, well, or not to believe )))
Now, if it is shown in the classical way that croceus and erate are different species, then it will be very interesting wink.gif

03.11.2013 20:33, bora

The difference between Crocea (France) and erate (Ukraine-Tajikistan-China-Far Eastern Federal District of the Russian Federation) in the nuclear elongation factor 1 alpha (EF1a) gene is less than 0.1%!!!

This post was edited by bora - 04.11.2013 04: 39

03.11.2013 20:37, sergenicko

The difference between Crocea (France) and erate (Ukraine-Tajikistan-China-Far Eastern Federal District of the Russian Federation) in the nuclear elongation factor 1 alpha (EF1a) gene is less than 0.01%!!!
A "hidden" instance of erate from Tajikistan: Vanch.

They probably have their own" natural " subspecies of erate.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 21: 15

03.11.2013 20:39, sergenicko

sergenicko, thank you, intersenye data. Although in general, of course, it would not be bad to understand the essence of this method, otherwise I do not know the "mechanics" of the appearance of these differences at all, in such a situation it remains only to believe, well, or not to believe )))
Now, if it is shown in the classical way that croceus and erate are different species, then it will be very interesting wink.gif

And read this Belarusian article - it is very popular written, with pictures. https://www.google.ru/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esr....55819444,d.bGE

As for croceus and erate, it was precisely in the classical way that they proved that they were different species, and no one doubted. What hybridizes with erata-so there are plenty of hybrids of jaundice. It was precisely barcoding that brought confusion to the quiet "pre-molecular" life.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 20: 44

03.11.2013 20:48, sergenicko

The difference between Crocea (France) and erate (Ukraine-Tajikistan-China-Far Eastern Federal District of the Russian Federation) in the nuclear elongation factor 1 alpha (EF1a) gene is less than 0.01%!!!
A "hidden" instance of erate from Tajikistan: Vanch.

Well, that's the same for nuclear. I'm afraid that if the possibility of turning Croceus into erate (and back again!)is not shown. in ontogenesis, then we will have to lean towards the recent genetic drift in some zap-Heb. subpopulation of erate (or rather, croceus: if they are conspecific, then Papilio croceus is a priority).

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 20: 49

03.11.2013 21:02, bora

For comparison, the difference from hyale is 1.2%.

03.11.2013 21:02, sergenicko

The difference between Crocea (France) and erate (Ukraine-Tajikistan-China-Far Eastern Federal District of the Russian Federation) in the nuclear elongation factor 1 alpha (EF1a) gene is less than 0.01%!!!
A "hidden" instance of erate from Tajikistan: Vanch.


As for the notorious 2% COI, I now know a family where this universal limps on both legs-satires. Certain types of erebuses differ in fractions of a percent. Among the eneis, there is generally darkness (from the point of view of universality) - all types of the magna-Jutta-Melissa-norna-Aktashi group with a COI between 0.4-0.1% (you need, of course, more material, but in any case the percentage is very low). Moreover, for example, such contrasting species as O. magna and O. aktashi differ in the range of 0.2-0.15%. Dinka doesn't have any in Romania. But these are satires, and their "universality" does not apply to golubyanki and belyanki. By the way, another group with a species distance obviously below 2% is mellicts (athalia with britomartis is 1.7% according to German data, Aurelia with Britomartis is even lower).

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 21: 05

03.11.2013 21:15, sergenicko

For comparison, the difference from hyale is 1.2%.

and between hiale and alfakariensis?

03.11.2013 21:15, bora

As for the notorious 2% COI, I now know a family where this universal limps on both legs-satires. Certain types of erebuses differ in fractions of a percent. Among the eneis, there is generally darkness (from the point of view of universality) - all types of the magna-Jutta-Melissa-norna-Aktashi group with a COI between 0.4-0.1% (you need, of course, more material, but in any case the percentage is very low). Moreover, for example, such contrasting species as O. magna and O. aktashi differ in the range of 0.2-0.15%. Dinka doesn't have any in Romania. But these are satires, and their "universality" does not apply to golubyanki and belyanki. By the way, another group with a species distance obviously below 2% is mellicts (athalia with britomartis is 1.7% according to German data, Aurelia with Britomartis is even lower).

Undoubtedly, everything should be tied to the group, now I make woodlice of the genus Trachelipus, so they have a difference of more than 17% between similar species in COI, more than 2% between populations, but there is virtually no intra-population variability.
Likes: 1

03.11.2013 21:19, bora

and between hiale and alfakariensis?

And for alfakariensis, there is no data for the EF1a gene.

03.11.2013 21:49, sergenicko

And for alfakariensis, there are no data on the EF1a gene alone.

Speaking of which, here's what I thought. Thanks to the fact that there is a publicly available database and software, soon specialists will have to be horrified by a huge mass of ignorant calculations and interpretations.

03.11.2013 21:50, Hierophis

I read the article, thank you, in principle, the conclusions are as follows: the method is based on the principle of an "evolutionary clock", in a non-conservative section of DNA, but at the same time in a rather "slowly" variable one, random mutations occur according to the STE, which allow us to make an estimate ... but what exactly do they allow you to do??
Mitochondria are usually not involved in the sexual process, but are transmitted through the maternal line, it seems that for lepidoptera, the transfer of mitochondria from the male is not known.
I understand it this way, let's say the population disappeared, even as a result of the "founder effect", that is, one pregnant female got over the mountains over the seas, gave birth, and it started... smile.gif
As time passes, variability in CO1 accumulates in the population, but if there is no conjugation, then this variability is individual for each new generation! As a result, after a very long time, even within a population in which there is an active exchange of genes and all individuals are almost homozygous, variability will accumulate in CO1.
So, having caught a couple of butterflies in such a population, you can easily land on the difference in a significant vzrylnik. smile.gif

So the mitochondria of males and females should mix at least a little, only in this way I see the possibility of leveling the differences within the species...

But even in this case, if a species appears as a result of the convergence of two species(as indicated in the article), or even three, and why not, the species will initially have different CO1 variants, and most likely for a very long time.


Brrrrrrrr, it's a little hard, I don't understand anything at all now. How does this even work in any group??? smile.gif


However, it is well shown that not everything is so simple, and

03.11.2013 22:09, Hierophis

Speaking of which, here's what I thought. Thanks to the fact that there is a publicly available database and software, soon specialists will have to be horrified by a huge mass of ignorant calculations and interpretations.

Come on, as if the availability of morphological criteria was worse, another thing is that now, as I understand it, it is impossible to review. a group using morphological features is a bad idea, and therefore all revisions with bursts of rapid speciation within previously stable groups are made using the molecular method (it is logical, to look at morphology is even disrespectful to their predecessors, it turns out that they overlooked).
And they are made EXCLUSIVELY by specialists wink.gif

03.11.2013 22:14, sergenicko

I read the article, thank you, in principle, the conclusions are as follows: the method is based on the principle of an "evolutionary clock", in a non-conservative section of DNA, but at the same time in a rather "slowly" variable one, random mutations occur according to the STE, which allow us to make an estimate ... but what exactly do they allow you to do??
Mitochondria are usually not involved in the sexual process, but are transmitted through the maternal line, it seems that for lepidoptera, the transfer of mitochondria from the male is not known.
I understand it this way, let's say the population disappeared, even as a result of the "founder effect", that is, one pregnant female got over the mountains over the seas, gave birth, and it started... smile.gif
As time passes, variability in CO1 accumulates in the population, but if there is no conjugation, then this variability is individual for each new generation! As a result, after a very long time, even within a population in which there is an active exchange of genes and all individuals are almost homozygous, variability will accumulate in CO1.
So, having caught a couple of butterflies in such a population, you can easily land on the difference in a significant vzrylnik. smile.gif

So the mitochondria of males and females should mix at least a little, only in this way I see the possibility of leveling the differences within the species...

But even in this case, if a species appears as a result of the convergence of two species(as indicated in the article), or even three, and why not, the species will initially have different CO1 variants, and most likely for a very long time.
Brrrrrrrr, it's a little hard, I don't understand anything at all now. How does this even work in any group??? smile.gif
However, it is well shown that not everything is so simple, and


Don't understand how there is no conjugation? And how do they reproduce? All mtDNAs in the population will come from the founder, but the mutation rate is unchanged, and after a while the distance within the population will increase (the COI mutation is generally neutral and does not undergo selection). There is no direct relationship between the mutation rate in COI and the speciation rate, but their correlation is experimentally established for each group, since speciation in each group also has an average rate. For diurnal butterflies ,the "hospital average" is 2% of the COI distance (if higher, then most likely we have different species in front of us), but this percentage varies greatly for different groups (I do not know if the intraspecific percentage is higher than 2% in lepidoptera, but there is a lot of interspecific below 2%). This percentage is nothing more than a" bell", but not an absolute universal.

03.11.2013 22:31, Hierophis

sergenicko, who is breeding? Mitochondria? Well, mitochondria reproduce by fission, just like normal prokaryotes. Therefore, they do not have conjugation.

03.11.2013 22:47, sergenicko

sergenicko, who is breeding? Mitochondria? Well, mitochondria reproduce by fission, just like normal prokaryotes. Therefore, they do not have conjugation.
Well, I just don't understand what the distance is, relative to what??? Distance is considered as the number of mutations, without taking into account their localization?
Well, let's say there was a population with the founder effect, the founder came from nowhere at all, was born out of smile.gifa vacuum, then her descendants produced gametes in which mitochondria acquired mutations in CO1(let the speed of mutations and speciation be very large, a species in 10 yearssmile.gif). The next descendants acquired more mutations and so 10 years passed.. Then a pregnant female from this population ended up on a desert island, and it all started the same way. Another 10 years passed.

A researcher came, caught two populations of butterflies, compared them with CO1, and in theory he will see... that the number of CO1 mutations is the same in both populations. And the types are already different.
The quality (localization) will be different, but no less different than if the material was taken from the parent population. How can some percentage difference of substitutions be formed there, if the processes are stochastic and there is no conjugation?

Nucleotide substitutions occur at the locus. The initial number of nucleotides is taken as 100%. How many nucleotides were replaced, that's the percentage you're asking about. There were 11 nucleotide substitutions , which means that the COI of the individual differs from the ancestral one by 11%, in other words, it is separated from the ancestral one by a distance of 11%. According to the same principle, 2 organisms are compared - how many nucleotides in a given piece of mtDNA they have and how many differ, the distance is expressed as a percentage of the sum of nucleotides. The trick is that mutations in the population occur at the same rate, but different. If populations exist in isolation for a long time, then each will have its own mutations, and the distance between individuals of different populations will be obviously higher than within the population. This means that an equal number of mutations will separate them from their common ancestor.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 22: 58

03.11.2013 22:58, Hierophis

I understand, and comparing two organisms is also no torture)

But the question arose - "different from the ancestral", and how is the sequence of the ancestral site of CO1 known ?
I understand that when constructing a cladogram, they start from a certain predicted sequence?

03.11.2013 23:21, sergenicko

I understand, and comparing two organisms is also no torture)

But the question arose - "different from the ancestral", and how is the sequence of the ancestral site of CO1 known ?
I understand that when constructing a cladogram, they start from a certain predicted sequence?

Of course not. The ancestral form can be reconstructed, but like all reconstructions, it will be inaccurate, especially with binary comparison. At least those nucleotide pairs that we have the same in the same place, those are most likely ancestral. And since not a couple of individuals are compared, but if possible more, then the reconstruction is improved. However, for statistics, reconstruction of the ancestral sequence of nucleotides is not necessary. After all, the similarities/differences between specific animals are considered, and not between them and their ancestor. One assumption here is that each of the organisms that descend to a common ancestor carries the results of approximately the same number of neutral mutations, since their rate is constant. Therefore, the percentage of matches between them is theoretically the percentage of preservation of ancestral nucleotides.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 23: 38

03.11.2013 23:52, sergenicko

Only all of the above is, of course, an unattainable ideal, and it would be automatic if there were no horizontal connections between organisms. mtDNA can change much faster than planned, for example, due to the introgression of the genes of some parasites. As well as from external influences (radiation, chemistry), and other such things that cause unplanned mutations, this is all described in that article. As a result, for all other traits, close species will be excessively distant in mtDNA. It can also happen the other way around. But still, these will be exceptions, not the rule.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 03.11.2013 23: 54

04.11.2013 0:12, Hierophis

In general, I am disappointed smile.gifI thought it was a panacea, but it turned out to be a variant of analgin smile.gif

04.11.2013 0:21, sergenicko

In general, I'm disappointed smile.gifI thought it was a panacea, but it turned out to be an analgin option smile.gif

There are different concepts of a species, and the main one is biological: "A species is a group of individuals that are similar in morphological, anatomical, physiological, ecological, biochemical, and genetic characteristics, occupy a natural area, are able to freely interbreed with each other and produce fertile offspring"
Or in short: "A species is a reproductively related population set".
In other words, a species "lives its own life", separate from other species, and its representatives freely interbreed and give fertile offspring, and with other species, as a rule, they do not interbreed and do not produce fertile offspring.
Usually we don't have enough data and/or field observations, and all sorts of distinguishing features - the more of them, the better, and so that the resulting "taxonomic species" does not contradict the concept of a biological species.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 04.11.2013 00: 25

04.11.2013 3:33, ayc

And for alfakariensis, there are no data on the EF1a gene alone.

The data is there, but better hidden. smile.gif But I won't discuss them here.

And how can I understand your behavior - I say that I don't want to divulge much information, and you rush to divulge it? What is the reason for this desire to mess with me? Did I offend you in some way? Or did he say that whoever names the gathering place will get a prize?

04.11.2013 4:21, ayc

I read the article, thank you, in principle, the conclusions are as follows: the method is based on the principle of an "evolutionary clock", in a non-conservative section of DNA, but at the same time in a rather "slowly" variable one, random mutations occur according to the STE, which allow us to make an estimate ... but what exactly do they allow you to do??
Mitochondria are usually not involved in the sexual process, but are transmitted through the maternal line, it seems that for lepidoptera, the transfer of mitochondria from the male is not known.
I understand it this way, let's say the population disappeared, even as a result of the "founder effect", that is, one pregnant female got over the mountains over the seas, gave birth, and it started... smile.gif
As time passes, variability in CO1 accumulates in the population, but if there is no conjugation, then this variability is individual for each new generation! As a result, after a very long time, even within a population in which there is an active exchange of genes and all individuals are almost homozygous, variability will accumulate in CO1.
So, having caught a couple of butterflies in such a population, you can easily land on the difference in a significant vzrylnik. smile.gif

So the mitochondria of males and females should mix at least a little, only in this way I see the possibility of leveling the differences within the species...

But even in this case, if a species appears as a result of the convergence of two species(as indicated in the article), or even three, and why not, the species will initially have different CO1 variants, and most likely for a very long time.
Brrrrrrrr, it's a little hard, I don't understand anything at all now. How does this even work in any group??? smile.gif
However, it is well shown that not everything is so simple, and

Everything you say is absolutely correct!
Mono - or oligomorphic lines can be formed through bottle necks and founders. There's no other way. Here a person has a lot of haplotypes. But if everyone lived in their ancestral villages and cut each other out from time to time, then some lines would be wiped out

And again, haplotypes can diverge in an ancestral species and their entire collection can go to child species. As a result, there will be variability within the view, and between the views -....
I'll say it again: there are a number of miraculous mechanisms when pieces of DNA are transferred between species. Including chunks of mtDNA.

So, COI can't possibly work on its own. Just as one thing, they have many pros and cons.

04.11.2013 4:25, ayc

Don't understand how there is no conjugation? And how do they reproduce? All mtDNAs in the population will come from the founder, but the mutation rate is unchanged, and after a while the distance within the population will increase (the COI mutation is generally neutral and does not undergo selection).

The fact that the rate of mutation is constant is only an assumption, not a fact. As well as the fact that all mutations in COI are neutral.

04.11.2013 6:32, ayc

sergenicko, I was all curious, why don't you discuss this work?
http://www.lepidoptera.crimea.ua/articles/...2008_crocea.pdf

or here's a popular retelling of it:
http://elementy.ru/genbio/synopsis?artid=195

After all, according to it, you can dance at the very time-in short, hybridization between erate and crocea in the Crimea turned out to be limited, despite the lack of differences between these species/populations. Everything would be beautiful if it weren't for the tiny amount of samples - when making such comparisons, they take dozens more individuals. And in general, the results are presented partially and selectively, which does not give a complete picture of the results obtained. Or what can we say about the frequencies of alleles in paratypical forms, if each one was taken for 1-2 individuals? In general, it is a pity that the authors started a very interesting study, did not bring it to mind, and published the results in a poorly reviewed journal that does not specialize in publishing articles in the field of population genetics.

04.11.2013 7:00, bora

I just couldn't imagine that it was so important to you.
Everything, now only friendship-Freundschaft!

04.11.2013 7:43, гук

"So who killed Nolestro?"
From general to specific.
Please explain these details to me.
In all erate populations in the Volgograd region, pure crocea appear from time to time, both in appearance and in the form of valva, there are also transitional forms.
Taken at random, the females produced offspring in which the same pattern is observed. Crocea traits were found in the offspring of females from the easternmost population.
I would be grateful for any reasonable model.

This post was edited by guk-04.11.2013 08: 27

04.11.2013 8:08, ayc

"So who killed Nolestro?"
From general to specific.
Please explain these details to me.
In all erate populations in the Volgograd region, pure crocea appear from time to time, both in appearance and in the form of valva, there are also transitional forms.
Taken at random, the females produced offspring in which the same pattern is observed. Prisaks Crocei were in the offspring of females from the easternmost population.
I would be grateful for any reasonable model.

There is a hypothesis about this in the article I just gave by Milovanov. Crocea this may be such a rare homozygote.

And what, just like that, the offspring from one female, raised in one cage, looks like a typical erata and a crocea? Why didn't you say anything before? Then this suggests that the variability is controlled by the genome, and not by anything else!
Likes: 1

04.11.2013 8:09, гук

On the site in erata there are photos of offspring from one female and from another.
http://babochki-kavkaza.ru/index.php/pieri...lias-erate.html
The conditions were the same.

This post was edited by guk-04.11.2013 08: 11

04.11.2013 8:46, ayc

Oh! But because males are a homozygous sex, and if the gene regulating the phenotype is located on the sex chromosome, then males have 2 times more of this gene than females. And 2 times more than its product. Therefore, males are often darker, "more male than females". And females always lack a gene product, so their phenotype is lighter and "female". But if the male has one normal allal and the other broken, then it will be light. And if both are broken, then even "samkovee". Or there may be alleles that are not completely broken, but simply give a little less product. Or a less active/functional product.

04.11.2013 9:01, гук

Here's something else to note.
In eastern populations, the percentage of "polygraphus" increases, and a very large percentage of yellow males with androconia. Such males are very rare in the west.
And more. The more external signs of crocea in a specimen, the more "crocea-like" the valva is.
Likes: 1

04.11.2013 10:02, ayc

Well, suppose there are alleles
With ilny
About the weak
D ohdenky

And then males can have geno-and phenotypes:
CC - orange, solid border
CO-yellow, solid border
OO-light yellow, solid border
SD - something like yellow, for example yellow with a leaky border
OD - light yellow, leaky border
DD-white, leaky border

And in females
C* - analog of SD
O* - analog of OD
D* - analog of DD

And in this case, everything will depend on the frequencies of alleles. But who knows how many alleles and factors regulate all traits - one or 98.

However! Under certain external conditions, the product of an allele, for example, can manifest itself in a new way. If it is an enzyme, its activity will increase or decrease. And then the O allele will manifest in the phenotype as C or D. That is, the OO genotype will produce a phenotype different from the usual OO. In other words, morphology can depend on both the environment and genetics. And crocea will be crocea discord despite the morphological identity!

This post was edited by ayc - 04.11.2013 10: 10
Likes: 4

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