The Red Book and insects

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28.10.2009 1:14, А.Й.Элез

Absolutely true. But, probably, Comrade. Gundorov did not intend to destroy the "rare beast" out of garden greed, but simply stated a conflict between the lists of protected species and the lists of pests. Fortunately, " pests "is no longer a dirty word or a recommendation to" wet", but a simple indication of the presence of plant species used (or, even more so, cultivated) by humans in the list of forage plants of the species. In the recent multi-volume "Insects and mites-pests of agricultural crops" there are also such appetizing names for an entomologist, compared to which the swallowtail is like a Colorado potato beetle. So we should not "wet" them for the sake of preserving plums. Although I have no doubt that entomologically savvy plum owners will still kokoshat any caterpillar on their own plum, so, alas, there is little we can do to help the prairie, swallowtail and even much more rare species. The master's sense of what to do about it...

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 28.10.2009 01: 15

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28.10.2009 7:30, Yakovlev

Dmitrich!
Attract luminaries from the "capitals"!!!!????
But this, sorry, I don't understand at all! It's like!?
A luminary will come and tell you who lives where, and what needs to be protected.
Well, yes, I talked with such luminaries, heard their opinions about my favorite field and saw the lists they make.
That's just our QC and is a reflection of their opinion.

About luminaries from the capitals. Open the RF Tax Code. And there, for rimnus, the Baikal region is given as the distribution, although it does not go further east than the Altai Territory. There are also other errors there. Although the fact that all regional ccsare done without involving narrow specialists in groups is also wrong. The idle opinion that the local entomologist knows better - than the uncle who sits in St. Petersburg and was not here at all and did not roam the local meadows and fields - is also nonsense. It is the combination of deep knowledge of literature, group and field observations that gives the most correct result. Unfortunately, this is not done in practice. And often the local specialist does not really know the group and has not worked in the field for a long time. And you get super-bloopers, multiplied by poverty and the desire to get a fee for each article. CC is the most problematic area of our scientific literature on insects. Gorno-Altaisk has taken a very interesting position. Their authors are local experts from Barnaul and Novosibirsk. Since I was the editor of the Altai Territory CC, I also invited Novosibirsk residents to participate.
To our deep regret, most of the regional CC remain works of local sourdough, and the CC of the Russian Federation ignores local publications, including those already published by the regional CC. Kopets, in short.

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02.11.2009 1:48,

Good day to all!
The CC discussion is very complex.
In a bad situation are all those who took part in the creation of the book, only except for the state......
So We are creating the PMR CC, the first in our history. Discussions on the forum were held about the introduction of numerous types in the CC. So I was faced with such a task.(I did not want to introduce Podaliriya and nek. other types of which either I did not see, or so much that they will soon harm.........
Here is the problem: the PMR borders on one side with Ukraine, on the other with Moldova.
There is a decree(post-update)I'm not a lawyer, I don't know, so it obliges to make AUTOMATIC types, if they are in the CC of Ukraine or Moldova-regardless of the number on the territory of the PMR-this is nonsense.
The second problem I encountered is other components(of course).As
many people wrote, the people who compose the CC are far from this(unfortunately, they still remain)
they begin to express what they saw back in the valosat year in ......over the twentieth century.
In general, having no relation to entomology and other sciences in particular, and then because of such ......... specialists(and amateurs) open their Books and they have eyes on their foreheads.
So there is a general opinion about the scientific nature of the approach in a given country or region. The worst part is when you see yourself with the others.
About the fact that the Book should be good for both specialists and people.This is very difficult to do, for example, we used the photos we took(what they were), and did not pull everything from the Internet.
I won't say anything about the government,I just don't have the energy..........it's not my place to discuss them.
I wonder how you will discuss our QC.
I just wanted to share it with those who will understand.
P.S. Until the government starts investing in science, nothing will change.

The post was edited by Kovalenko D. A. - 02.11.2009 01: 50

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02.11.2009 15:41, Victor Titov

So We are creating the PMR CC, the first in our history. Here is the problem: the PMR borders on one side with Ukraine, on the other with Moldova.
There is a decree(post-update)I'm not a lawyer, I don't know, so it obliges to make AUTOMATIC types, if they are in the CC of Ukraine or Moldova-regardless of the number on the territory of the PMR-this is nonsense.

Dear Dmitry, please don't take my words personally. You and other specialists have been assigned a task , so you are trying to solve it as honestly and professionally as possible. But the creation of the PMR CC is a perfect illustration of the politicization of the issue of Red Books. After all, once the decision was made to create a CC of the PMR, therefore, the budget of far from the richest (and even officially unrecognized) state found funds for this. Think about it - it turns out that the authorities of an unrecognized state have no other more important tasks, both domestic and foreign, than creating their own Red Book! That's really-to bulo! I don't want to offend anyone, but in my opinion, the publication of the CC is required by the authorities of the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic in order to wipe the nose of political opponents and external and internal enemies: look, we are the same state as everyone else, we even have our own CC!
As for the mandatory inclusion of" red book " species of Ukraine and Moldova in the CC you are creating, this is nonsense in general. I am not an expert on the law of the PMR, but there are general legal principles. According to the Regulation on the Procedure for Maintaining the Red Book of the Russian Federation, it includes, among other things, objects of the animal and plant world that fall under international agreements and conventions, as well as those listed in the International Red Book and the Red Book of the CIS member States. As for the international QC, everything seems to be clear here. And here's the rest... The PMR is not officially recognized, including by Ukraine and Moldova, the PMR is not a member of any international environmental agreements and conventions, it is not a member of any unions with other states (with the exception of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, but these are also those states). So who can legally oblige you to rewrite the CC of neighboring states?! That's what's crazy in the first place!

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03.11.2009 4:34, А.Й.Элез

If it is true about looking back at the CC of Ukraine and Moldova (although why Kovalenko D. A. does not find out first of all exactly whether this is true), then, I believe, there could also be such a consideration that it is impossible to allow neighbors to live both there and there for rarities (due to the protected nature of these species in the at home) were thrown down by a crowd with nets to finish off these rarities in the PMR. That is, looking out for neighboring CC's is not out of love for the neighbors (and not out of respect for their opinion), but quite the opposite. There are no other grounds for such selective consideration (specifically for two neighbors!) it can't be, and these grounds would again only concern the most idiotic aspect of insect protection - protection from collection. And the " Regulation on the procedure for conducting...", so be it, is it really already in the PMR, I wonder? One way or another, I don't think it will be good if another state (regardless of the degree of its international recognition) repeats our old nonsense.

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06.12.2009 21:50, А.Й.Элез

The list of butterfly species is a disgrace!
Just took and shoved the brightest ones in...

Obviously. Yes, there is also enough shame in addition to the list of butterflies. But I am glad at least that they are ahead of the "dear Russians" in recommendations: I have not yet found recommendations for baiting insects for "collecting", etc. (although, of course, I believe that the last word in Ukraine remains with the legislative act establishing sanctions for collecting species included in the CC).).

But the recommendations on the organization of entomological reserves are scattered so thickly that if at least half of them are implemented, the territory of Ukraine may not even be covered with reserves in one layer, and then why else prohibit some kind of "collection"?..

A measure (the"golden mean"), which could consist precisely in recommending the organization of nature reserves, but not for anything at all (not for podaliriya with a swallowtail! and, on the other hand, not for acherontia!), but only for local species that are really threatened with extinction within large regions (and not for each local population), is still a matter of future CC. And we obviously won't be able to switch the security itch to specific subspecies in the foreseeable future. Let's assume that three subspecies are listed for hungarikus, and the title for the article (i.e., subject to protection) is, of course, the species as a whole, and no differences between subspecies in terms of rarity and vulnerability are given. Whether this should be taken literally – in the sense that information about the state of populations, numbers, vulnerability, etc. concerns all three subspecies absolutely equally, or it means that subspecies are distinguished for the sake of science, and the article as a whole is written for the sake of stupidity, which still allows you to protect insects only at the level of the species (which in a number of cases, due to the completely different state of populations of different subspecies, is simply profanity). Apollo was awarded information (absolutely absurd!) about the price on the "black market" (although the norm for this point is "no information") - despite the fact that the presence of a species in Ukraine today is not confirmed by the CC itself and that, therefore, it is as pointless to dream about income from the sale of local individuals as it is to tell the CC about the black market obviously foreign fauna.

Vulnerable can be called (and, strictly speaking, can be called, because insects are so weak...) anyone, and they are included in the CC of the species, but in fact they almost always talk about the vulnerability of populations (which can be scattered in patches as much as you want in the region, although often with the possibility of inter-population contacts). First, the more than favorable abundance of the species is reported, or even its habitability in some part of the range (and not at all latitudes, the species must live in equal density), and then the "reasons for the decrease in population" are considered... What do you mean, Sayid?"

And so on, and so on. There's just no time to look at it in detail right now. In addition, I see that the game about Apollo has already been noted by T. okoem.

But I will note one more small plus (more pleasant for a Muscovite than for someone who permanently lives in Ukraine and knows it well enough faunistically): for all its vagueness, the indications of habitats of one form or another are sometimes quite crooked, for which special thanks to the authors.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 07.12.2009 02: 45

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06.12.2009 22:00, А.Й.Элез

I saw and...

Господарське та комерційне значення
В Україні немає. За кордоном 1 особина гар-
ного ґатунку оцінюється серед колекціоне-
рів у 3–5 євро.

This is a quote from an essay on Marumba quercus. This is also true in others...

I read it, but it seems that it says:
Червона книга України - господарське та комерційне значення:
За кордоном безперечно немає. В Україні цінується серед колекціоне-
рів найбільше 1 особина гарного ґатунку.

And this, alas, is our common misfortune.

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06.12.2009 22:13, А.Й.Элез

In an essay on Iphiclides podalirius, the reason for the decrease in(?) the number of cattle grazing is indicated. What kind of cattle is this that can trample down cherry plum and apricot trees?!

Apparently, this implies a chain almost according to Darwin: cattle shit wherever they get, including in plantings, and the droppings that cover the fallen fruits do not allow the seeds to hatch

. And in the gardens of cherry plum and apricot are protected from caterpillars by gardeners (by the way, this factor is also not mentioned separately). In my opinion, there is no other way to interpret this nonsense of theirs...

Although much more important, of course, are other factors: the clearing of territories for mansions and adjacent, I'm not afraid of the word, latifundia; transport infrastructure (although there are also advantages for podaliriya); industrial pollution... But the authors forgot to specify the first two points, and with the third one, it seems that they decided that it was no longer in time.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 07.12.2009 03: 50

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07.12.2009 2:17, okoem

The technical side of things is not always up to par.

In some images, the white balance is noticeably littered.

The original
picture: 1.jpg

After a minute of my unprofessional work in Photoshop
picture: 2.jpg

It would seem that it is much easier to frame a photo....

The original
picture: c1.jpg

... cropped it
picture: c2.jpg

I'm not sure that such an illustration gives an idea of the animal's appearance...
picture: h.jpg

Points of discovery (I mean the Crimea) do not always stand in their places, i.e., in some places they have very significantly "moved out" to the side. Also, sometimes maps directly contradict the text, i.e. a point is indicated in the text, but it is not shown on the map.

More about the Red Data Book of Ukraine: area maps have solid and "transparent" circles. The latter, presumably, belong to ancient finds. What is the statute of limitations? I didn't find any information about it.

Judging by the fact that the Ayudag tomares of Nogel and the Crimean Apollo (both of the early twentieth century) are marked with empty dots, they are quite old. But where the border is between the filled-in points and the empty ones is really unclear.

The authors of the photos were mixed up. For example, photos of mantises Empusa pennicornis, Iris polystictica, plants Eremurus tauricus, Onobrychis pallasii, Salvia scabiosifolia (picture on the left) are signed with my name, but their author is not me.

This post was edited by okoem - 07.12.2009 02: 19

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07.12.2009 10:25, Pirx

Guys, you can all imagine HOW MANY mistakes there are in the CCU. Here's a quick example: scorpion and solpuga are listed as crustaceans (p. 55, 56). And what is the mayfly doing on page 86, just beyond the locusts?.. Yes, what can I say - you need to publish a separate monograph on error correction, probably. And how many complaints were there about the first edition of the CCU! There were articles with additions, there were working meetings - all in vain. The CCU is also a policy, a document, and a justification for the allocation of protected areas, etc. "it's not that simple. And so-thank you, at least this came out. Although, when I skimmed through it, I doubted whether it was worth releasing IT. It's unfinished. There was an order from above urgently (in the summer, I think, on Independence Day) to give the CCU to either Yushchenko or someone else. No one asked anyone - they handed it over and announced that they were out. Released retroactively, so to speak. The mind cannot comprehend! And I had to urgently release something before the end of the year. The authors have very big complaints about the publishing house - they have ruined everything that was not spoiled earlier. Marking all the mistakes now is a very thankless task, guys. It is easier to find and briefly list everything that is correct. And I am very sorry for the numerous conscientious authors of essays (I know many of them personally) - they wanted the best and all sincerely tried. It wasn't their fault what happened.

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07.12.2009 23:04, Pleco

Well, here I am with my 5 kopecks. I'll insert...
More comments:
P. 17. Batracobdella algira (Moquin-Tandon, 1846) - a species that is found in Ukraine only in the Crimea..., but see the map!!!
P. 18. Erpobbdella stschhegolewi (Lukin et Epstein, 1960) – the same, but at least in the Crimea it was shown ...
P. 22 and p. 23, respectively Trocheta subviridis and Trocheta bykowskii – discrepancy between the distribution indications in the text and the map
of p. 27. Branchipus schaefferi the same trouble. I didn't even look at the maps any further
p.28, 30, 42 Tanymastix stagnalis, Branchinectella media, Astacus astacus. - brilliant drawing… If it's that bad, couldn't you have taken the images from the old edition?
P. 47. Xantho poressa-poor boiled xantho ...
p. 58. Leptojulus semenkevitshi-just couldn't restrain myself-see picture and description: Zabarvlenya chorno-browne z chornoju povzdovzhnoj liniju na spini.
S. 62. Ecdyonurus solus Kłonowska-Olejnik, Prokopov & Godunko, 2007-incorrect order of authors, need: Godunko, Kłonowska-Olejnik & Prokopov

Regarding non-compliance with copyright, below is a list of my photos that were published under someone else's name
. 18. Erpobbdella stschhegolewi (Lukin et Epstein, 1960)
, p. 62. Ecdyonurus solus
, p. 4. 63. Heptagenia samochai

This post was edited by Pleco - 07.12.2009 23: 06

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09.12.2009 0:34, Nosferatumyia

Guys, you can all imagine HOW MANY mistakes there are in the CCU. Here's a quick example: scorpion and solpuga are listed as crustaceans (p. 55, 56). And what is the mayfly doing on page 86, just beyond the locusts?.. Yes, what can I say - you need to publish a separate monograph on error correction, probably. And how many complaints were there about the first edition of the CCU! There were articles with additions, there were working meetings - all in vain. The CCU is also a policy, a document, and a justification for the allocation of protected areas, etc. "it's not that simple. And so-thank you, at least this came out. Although, when I skimmed through it, I doubted whether it was worth releasing IT. It's unfinished. There was an order from above urgently (in the summer, I think, on Independence Day) to give the CCU to either Yushchenko or someone else. No one asked anyone - they handed it over and announced that they were out. Released retroactively, so to speak. The mind cannot comprehend! And I had to urgently release something before the end of the year. The authors have very big complaints about the publishing house - they have ruined everything that was not spoiled earlier. Marking all the mistakes now is a very thankless task, guys. It is easier to find and briefly list everything that is correct. And I am very sorry for the numerous conscientious authors of essays (I know many of them personally) - they wanted the best and all sincerely tried. It wasn't their fault what happened.

Guys, you won't believe the maddening publishers that authors-and especially editors - have had to work with, and HOW MANY TIMES ALL THESE "SCORPION CRUSTACEANS"HAVE BEEN CORRECTED IN THE PROOFS. Shame on the Ministry, which started all this shit with a fake signal copy by August 24, shame on the publishers-nimble majorists who laundered someone's money.

Thank you to all the editors and authors who wanted this plane to reach the runway and land gently. Now all of us, "dokhtor and kondedaty", share the fate of "fallen face in gonvo".

So don't worry about correcting mistakes, I'll forgive your lack of understanding, my dear ones - we've corrected them ten times, now we're preparing Schmeisser and going to shoot them.

This post was edited by Bolivar - 12/11/2009 08: 50

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