V. Savchuk in trouble

The case has not yet reached the court, and we hope it won't. I suggest not to touch the judge

[quote=Hierophis,22.11.2011 20:49]

Dmitrich, judging by what you write-v is more of a utopian or idealist

Cacti were purchased exactly as cacti, for the collection.

No, you're wrong. I am neither a utopian nor an idealist. It's just that in my practical work (if you remember , I'm an investigator by my main occupation), I always try to be guided exclusively by the law. You know, surprisingly, so far it's working. I believe that I have every right to express my assessment of the actions and decisions of other law enforcement officers in the part in which I consider myself sufficiently competent (work experience in the profession is more than 20 years, no matter how...). And in the case of Vladimir, I would not hesitate to make a decision to refuse to initiate criminal proceedings (I will make a reservation - based on the circumstances known to us, and taking for granted that there are no other evidence to the contrary). Why did you misspoke? Yes, because in this topic, no one reported on the content of Vladimir's negotiations with operatives who "purchased" the notorious cacti from him. And from a legal point of view, a lot depends on this. If they were purchased by operatives under the guise of collectors, for breeding and collecting-this is one thing. In this case, it is absurd to talk about the composition of the crime. It's another matter if the purpose of the acquisition according to the operational legend was different - here, as they say, "we will see"...

In addition, the cactus itself is not a drug,

I didn't say cactus was a drug. The Criminal Code of the Russian Federation has a norm (Article 228-1) that provides for criminal liability, including for the sale of plants containing psychotropic substances. I think that there is a similar rule in the Criminal Code of Ukraine, and it is according to it that they are trying to bring Vladimir to justice.

and also, according to our own law, this part of it

Щодо препаратів, що містять малі кількості наркотичних
засобів, психотропних речовин, включених до таблиць II і III
Переліку ( 770-2000-п ), та (або) прекурсорів, включених до
таблиці IV Переліку ( 770-2000-п ), і тому ризику зловживання ними
немає або він незначний, і з яких зазначені засоби чи речовини не
можна вилучити легкодоступними способами в кількості, за якої
можливе зловживання, можуть вилучатися із сфери дії деяких заходів
контролю. Заходи контролю за обігом зазначених препаратів та
порядок їх застосування встановлюються Кабінетом Міністрів
України ( 589-2009-п ). Гранично допустима кількість наркотичних
засобів, психотропних речовин і прекурсорів, що міститься в
препаратах ( 1203-2007-п ), встановлюється Кабінетом Міністрів
України за поданням спеціально уповноваженого органу виконавчої
влади у сфері охорони здоров'я.

You know, I'm not good at Ukrainian. If you translate it , I'll comment and express my opinion. As it is , I don't understand what it's about.

But you forget what country you probably live in, and that this country is not very different from yours yet. In some cases, no formal logic or laws work as they should.

Yes, you are right - the laws (even if imperfect) in both Russia and Ukraine often work very badly. But this does not mean that lawlessness should not be resented. Personally, I'm not used to it in my 50s.

  

Dmitrich is an aggressive idealist!(((

No, and I don't agree with that. Unfortunately, what happened to Vladimir happens very often in Russia and Ukraine, and I am sure that it has a place (even if sometimes) in their heavenly foreign lands. I only give my private comment to unprofessional (criminal?)people. actions of other law enforcement officers, which I don't want to call colleagues. I explain, to the best of my ability, what their punctures are from a purely legal point of view. I hope that this analysis will be useful to Vladimir. What does idealism have to do with it? And aggressiveness, I agree, is present (professional deformation of the personality, you know) .

Can I come visit and clean the judge's face?

The emotional impulse is understandable and justified, Andriukha! But, believe me, this is not our method: we will arrive, but will we leave after a just retribution?

Dmitrich
The translation of that excerpt is as follows-

As for drugs that contain small amounts of drugs and psychotropic substances and / or precursors included in lists 1 and 2 and Table 4, and therefore the risk of abuse is small, obtaining a narcotic substance is very difficult, such drugs can be distributed more freely. Restrictions on their turnover are established by the Cabinet of Ministers, as well as they set the limit content of narcotic substances in them.

Here I was mistaken, since this is apparently only true for medicines, but it is not clear why just drugs, drugs are different!


In general, in fact, all this is so creepy that it becomes clear - this is in fact the beginning of a terrible chaos, the era of professionals is passing, and this applies to education, and medicine, and not just to jurisprudence. They are replaced by people brought up on "bourgeois values".

And all this against the background of the return of the "dashing 90" against the background of the crisis in general in all areas, let's say-whether it will continue...

Dmitrich
The translation of that excerpt is as follows - ...
Here I was mistaken, since this is apparently only true for medicines, but it is not clear why just drugs, drugs are different!

Yes, we are talking, judging by the context, about drugs, cacti (plants) it's nothing to do with it. And why just, and not medical? Yes, because the drugs are different: veterinary, for example... And they can also contain promising "dope".

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 22.11.2011 22: 15

What does it mean if a biologist grows cacti-it means that he studied the literature, communicated with colleagues, could not help but know that cacti contain some substances?! A clear logical error in reasoning is generalization based on incomplete information: one biologist has studied the literature on cacti and knows what substances they contain , which means that all other biologists have such knowledge. .....You first prove that you knew!

I apologize, I see that I didn't put it quite right, because I haven't quite come to my senses after recently communicating with interesting people. The basis for confidence in my knowledge was the chapters from the popular science book published on my page, together with the offer for sale of cacti, which mentioned that lophophora both contains and possesses. Naturally, the book was about Mexican plants.

Will I ever stop drinking? Why didn't they stop at me? You can get drunk before the trial.

What else can I do for you? Can forum members be helpful?

There is also an option to decriminalize Lophophora. Make out different pieces of paper and go to Kiev. In Kiev, the issue will be considered and a positive result is possible. But this case will not be easy and fast, it may take a year, or even two or three. So, not sure if this is an option.

There is also an option to decriminalize Lophophora. Make out different pieces of paper and go to Kiev. In Kiev, the issue will be considered and a positive result is possible. But this case will not be easy and fast, it may take a year, or even two or three. So, I'm not sure if this is an option.

This is not an option: lofofora is almost everywhere criminal and it is unlikely that they will go for it.
It is necessary to focus on a specific, special case: the validity of the actions of law enforcement agencies. How do they know that the cacti were sold specifically for the purpose of selling drugs???? Here the lawyers are ready to work in this direction. But this is my opinion, and there the devil knows.

This post was edited by vasiliy-feoktistov - 23.11.2011 18: 58

Nevertheless, this is the best option. Moreover, there is experience in other European countries, and there is every reason to do so. Just this issue should probably be taken up by the botanical society as a whole+cactus lovers, because it is their interests that are primarily affected, for example, because the lophophora culture is a unique opportunity to study and preserve this genus that disappears in typical habitats, in addition, this genus has cultural value as a houseplant and collector plant for many years.
And all this against the background of traces of the presence of the so-called drug in these cacti, which is easily confirmed by an expert examination.

vasiliy-feoktistov, more correctly-almost everywhere decriminalized or never banned-study the English-speaking sector of the Internet on this topic! Almost all countries in the EU have removed this nonsense for a long time since 2004. And our guys decided to pick up what others threw out, the classic scenario..

It would be better if sugar was banned, they say, they drive moonshine out of it - this was the case b)))))

This post was edited by Hierophis - 11/23/2011 19: 14

There is also an option to decriminalize Lophophora. Make out different pieces of paper and go to Kiev. In Kiev, the issue will be considered and a positive result is possible. But this case will not be easy and fast, it may take a year, or even two or three. So, I'm not sure if this is an option.

Yes, the option is vague. I wonder if there are any cactus growers ' communities in Kiev? They should be, but still the capital. Maybe contact them? Decriminalization of lophophora, I think, cactus growers will not hurt. After all, an interesting cactus (even I, who am completely far from cactus studies, already know how difficult and interesting it is to grow it...) .

OK, Roman has already made my point, but I didn't notice...

Dura lex, sed lex

Dura lex, sed lex

No, the law is not so severe: it is rather bad.
We've got parsley equated like in the summer, but without it, how? Chicken broth, but without parsley: I don't understand
The trouble is that these laws are often written and enforced by incompetent people.

Will I ever stop drinking? Why didn't they stop at me? You can get drunk before the trial.

It's not possible to drink anything, unless it's devils.
Well, in good company, the car and cart easily.

  
We've got parsley equated like in the summer, but without it, how? Chicken broth, but without parsley: I don't understand

Curly parsley (and only it) Rospotrebnadzor has added to the SanPiN "Hygienic requirements for food safety and nutritional value". It is not included in the list according to the decree of the Government of the Russian Federation No. 934 of November 27, 2010. And, therefore, there is no criminal liability.

Yes, the option is vague. I wonder if there are any cactus growers ' communities in Kiev? They should be, but still the capital. Maybe contact them?

Cactus growers were among the first people I informed about my detention.
The chief Ukrainian cactus specialist, Albert Migach, is already working on the issue of Lophophora.

1) I've been reading the topic for half an hour now - I don't understand the meaning.
2) What specific actions can be taken to support Savchuk? Formulate it clearly and post it at the beginning of the topic.
3) Be sure to clear the topic of nationalistic statements. I am an anti-Semite from Western Europe - no one oppresses Jews here, they have their own state or obligations to integrate into the society of their country of residence. And clean up the alcohol propaganda, too.

As a postscript (since there are no answers or changes).

If you do not do anything , then you will only get worse later, they will be judged in general for having pictures of cacti in the house.

If you are interested in conversations in favor of - then they can go on indefinitely.

It is clear that you are afraid for yourself - only here is the Internet, under the nickname you can speak more clearly and boldly. Formulate what you want, write a letter, and ask the moderator and editors for it. I'm ready to sign the letter.

Ask your elders for support. Their old mode of behavior (passive waiting) no longer works in the country. They must listen to you - otherwise no one will follow them, there will be no one to work for, and science will die after them.

Talking about anti-Semitism is harmful here - there is Israel, no one oppresses on the national sign, this is even absurd. And remove the promotion of alcohol here-otherwise all your statements are devalued.

I will remove my 2 posts from this thread if nothing changes for you.

good luck to you.

I will add that I would have said the same thing as a guest, but your moderator previously banned my guest statements in entomology.

This post was edited by VVolkov - 04.12.2011 14: 18

What kind of support, what kind of face, what kind of passive expectation?
This is not the planet Alpha in the reverse side of tentura, where cacti are grown, or even Western Europe, this is Ukraine.. and Russia, which, unfortunately, is still almost the same! They thump, everyone is all lazy, my hut is on the edge, I don't know anything, and so on ))))

I urge the moderator to finally clean up the topic! In its current form, it is rather harmful for a person in need of help!

I encourage all my colleagues to re-read their posts and maybe even remove something. This is the case when self-censorship is useful.

PS. I really didn't want to get involved, but it seems to me that verbiage can also harm a person!

This post was edited by Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg - 04.12.2011 14: 36

What kind of support, what kind of face, what kind of passive expectation?
This is not the planet Alpha in the reverse side of tentura, where cacti are grown, or even Western Europe, this is Ukraine.. and Russia, which, unfortunately, is still almost the same! They thump, everyone is all lazy, my hut is on the edge, I don't know anything, and so on ))))

Hierophis, you are an excellent troll. The more I read your posts in topics, the more convinced I am of this. Apart from useless tryndezh, there is practically nothing useful in your messages. And, if you thump and "your hut is on the edge", then do not sign it for everyone.

Entalex, who are you then, elf? Well, I'm very glad that your messages are full of useful things, but for some reason I don't really read them, and you, judging by your statements, read my messages, and why, it's not clear)))

Your topic - become a curator, pick up a club, and otmorderiruyte it as your heart desires, make all the trolls in the black list I and especially dangerous in the list II, you love it

I haven't been here for a long time, and what do I see? ... this is MATRIX!!! Vovka hold on! I'm with You!
Robert

Vladimir, is there any news?

The investigation is coming to an end. A trial is expected early next year.

The investigation is coming to an end. A trial is expected early next year.

Vladimir, is there anything relevant to the proceedings?
At least in general terms. Is the defense line lined up?

There are no changes in the case yet, and the results of additional examinations are still unknown.
Vesomoe - a substance found in cacti during the initial examination.
Line of defense - did not know about the substance, grew it and sold it for non-narcotic purposes.

Yesterday (May 7) the case was closed.

Can I congratulate you?

With what wording, if not a secret?

My sincere congratulations to you!

Vladimir, my congratulations!

Join us!

Yesterday (May 7) the case was closed.

Hurray!!!

Congratulations!

it shouldn't be any other way!

With what wording, if not a secret?

The case was closed by the court. I will quote: "The Court considers it possible, taking into account the impeccable behavior, positive characteristics of the defendant, and his scientific activity, to release him from punishment, since during the consideration of the case in court, the defendant cannot be considered a socially dangerous person."