V. Savchuk in trouble

Well, of course, a madhouse . The criminal case was initiated absolutely illegally . Everything is as simple as cotton underpants: there is such a thing as a crime. And only if it is present in the actions of a person, it can be found guilty of committing a crime. And this composition consists of the subject (a sane individual who has reached the age from which criminal liability begins), the subjective side (the internal mental attitude of the person who committed the crime to the socially dangerous act and its consequences, the motivating motives, the goals that he wanted to achieve by violating the criminal law, etc.), the object (protected by criminal law public relations, the benefits and interests to which the socially dangerous act is directed and to which harm is caused or a real threat of harm is created) and the objective side (action or omission, consequences and causal relationship between the former and the latter). Without going into details, it is necessary to recognize that 3 signs are obvious: the subject (Vladimir is a man in the full prime of life, and according to his mental health will give 100 points ahead to law enforcement officers from Nikolaev), the object (the health of the population, of course, may suffer from the spread of narcotic, strong substances), the objective side (cacti containing prohibited substances, indeed, sales - who can argue). That's just a mistake came out from zealous Nikolaev pseudo-fighters with drug dealers ! The subjective side in this case is not in sight! Vladimir, what, had the goal to distribute a powerful substance? Pipes! Leave me alone, foes: he is a cactus collector, and sold cacti exclusively as CACTI, as an object of cultivation with an aesthetic, scientific (yes, whatever!)purpose. third parties, but not as an item containing prohibited strong substances! On the subjective side, the sale of drugs and strong substances is a crime committed with DIRECT INTENT, i.e. the subject must distribute them precisely realizing that he is distributing a strong (narcotic) substance for the purpose of its consumption by the recipient as such, and must also be aware of the onset of socially dangerous consequences of his actions and want them to occur. Where is our esteemed Vladimir's intent? No-ti!
Similarly, a summer resident who grows poppies on his plot is not subject to criminal liability, because he loves buns with poppies - and that's all! In the actions of Vladimir there is no subjective side, and, consequently, there is no corpus delicti. This should be clear to any lawyer, as 2x2=4 (law is the most accurate of the humanities). Unless the authorities in Ukraine have gone mad (which in theory, unfortunately, can be allowed ), the criminal prosecution of Vladimir should be stopped immediately! Hands off okoem! iNo pasaran!

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 02.11.2011 19: 10

Dmitrich, you can immediately see that a lawyer, and a lawyer So you can go when selling anything, they say he sold not heroin but powder, or not marijuana but herbarium-somehow it looks naive

The danger here is that Valentinus wrote that this is a demonstrative detention, saying that others should be afraid. This has already happened in Russia.

http://lenta.ru/news/2009/07/19/cactus/

just the same scenario - as soon as the law comes into force, they immediately make a demonstrative detention, just like in our country. I read on some forum that the cactus grower was eventually not charged with anything by the link, but the plants were not given away, and they were forced to take receipts from the club members that they did not have these lofophores and they would never keep them and distribute them. And since we now have everything copied from Russia, even the time we wanted to copy, it is not surprising that a similar approach. So the result will be similar in idea, that is, nothing will happen, but the main thing is done - a lot of noise and everyone is trembling..

Russia seems to be stupidly copying laws from the United States-recently in Russia they banned large boas and pythons to keep(in the United States, the rationale for this is that they are released into nature where in the southern states they take root and harm the ecosystem - and where do boas take root in Russia???). And Ukraine recently, after certain elections, began to stupidly copy everything from Russia. So soon akhatin will be banned in Russia, and they are also banned in the United States.

PS
And by the way, I once read that the United States and Russia were the only countries in which these cacti are equated to drugs, and just recently Belarus joined them, and since August of this year, Ukraine also joined them. So they went crazy, that's for sure, but not only here )))

This post was edited by Hierophis - 02.11.2011 19: 52

Dmitrich, you can immediately see that a lawyer, and a lawyer So you can go when selling anything, they say he sold not heroin but powder, or not marijuana but herbarium-somehow it looks naive

Yes, a lawyer . Just not a lawyer, I'm sorry (and I've never been one, and I won't be - internal principles don't allow it). I'm an investigator. And I speak not theoretically, but based on my more than 20-year practice: I myself have repeatedly issued decisions refusing to initiate criminal proceedings under similar circumstances. And there's nothing naive about it. Indeed, if it is not proven that the person from whom the "powder" was seized knew that it was heroin, he is not subject to criminal liability. And it's the same with marijuana. And the responsibility to prove his intent lies with the prosecution (investigator, prosecutor). And the fact that legal analysis seems naive to you is understandable and excusable: that is why I personally am against a jury trial. As you know, lawyers cannot be included in this list. So they judge, damn it, ordinary people, with their hearts, not their minds. What is obvious to a lawyer (specialist, professional) seems naive to them. And it turns out that in the end, the killer Vera Zasulich is not guilty .

The danger here is that Valentinus wrote that this is a demonstrative detention, saying that others should be afraid. This has already happened in Russia.
http://lenta.ru/news/2009/07/19/cactus/

Yes, this is possible in practice. Law and law enforcement practice are different things. And the arbitrariness of the authorities is possible. Only this will be arbitrariness, lawlessness, and not an accurate and correct interpretation and application of the norm of the law. But from a legal point of view, the situation with Vladimir "unfolds" exactly as I wrote above. And his line of defense should be built in this way.

Dmitrich, well, I won't talk about powders, this is from the "obvious-incredible" series

I will only say on the topic that there is just such a situation here, that these cacti are very rarely bought in order to devour, it's stupid, and too expensive. So they are sold exactly as cacti, of course, the contingent that buys them is not always collectors, but also Castaneda fans, but they do not eat them, but use them as a fetish. They eat all sorts of mushrooms and whatnot

And since I learned a little earlier about this case, I plowed through a bunch of forums, and found that in Russia and Belarus there were exactly such situations-they passed a law, and immediately a demonstrative detention, and for some reason a well-known and socially active person. It ended in all cases without criminal cases.

Indeed, if it is not proven that the person from whom the "powder" was seized knew that it was heroin, he is not subject to criminal liability.

Won't there be a contradiction? It turns out that a person, on the one hand, is a connoisseur of cacti, and this is a plus-on the other, he did not know about the properties? This is a smart lawyer should be. Please correct me if something is wrong.

This has already happened in Russia.
http://lenta.ru/news/2009/07/19/cactus/

Well, what can I say? Unfortunately, the" stick " system of evaluating the work of the police (police), including drug control, is not obsolete in our country. It is very difficult to identify a real drug dealer, detain him, collect and legally consolidate evidence that will be accepted by the court. And cactus growers - here they are! They grow up, naive! And do not hide from anyone-take it, lukewarm! And you can always report how many "cultivators" of plants containing harmful substances have been identified, how many cactus plantations have been destroyed. And unscrupulous (if not to say hoosier ) that's what drug cops do. Only the information you linked to does not refute anything I said. Well, they made claims to the cactus grower, scared him, cute. So what? Does the online publication indicate that they initiated a case and sent it to the court? No. Let's get this straight. First, they threatened him with Article 231 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation: "illegal cultivation of plants containing narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances." Criminal liability for such actions occurs, firstly, only for the cultivation of such plants on a large (or especially large) scale. This amount is approved by the Government (see http://law.kodeks.ru/egov/index?tid=0&nd=9...evDoc=901870235 ), rather than being determined arbitrarily by"drug lords". When starting to collect decorative (and not only) plants, it is useful to get acquainted with this list. It is not yet clear whether the number of plants grown by any collector according to the approved list is large (at least). And if it does not apply , then there is no crime (in this case, its objective side will be absent).
Secondly, the crime provided for in Article 231 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation is intentional, i.e. a person who grows such plants is subject to criminal liability only when he consciously grows them precisely because they contain narcotic (psychotropic) substances. If an amateur simply collects such plants on a group basis, growing both drug-containing and other cacti, absolutely not thinking about the fact that some of them can be extracted potion, and even more so, that they can be sold to drug addicts, where is his intent? It does not exist (i.e. there is no subjective side of the crime composition, which I wrote about above). Read the publication you refer to: "the attention of law enforcement agencies may be attracted by those who breed prohibited plants for profit" - this is from there. Well, the journalist is not a lawyer, and he expressed himself as he understood the lawyer who apparently advised him. But I got the gist of it almost right. It should be clarified: those who breed prohibited plants can be held criminally liable: a) for the purpose of extracting a narcotic potion and its personal consumption; b) for the purpose of selling such plants as drug-containing plants, and not as objects of collecting from an aesthetic (scientific) point of view.
Another thing is that if a person is found to have plants prohibited by law for cultivation in the absence of a special permit (see the list at the link above), regardless of the presence or absence of elements of a crime in his actions and the prospects of being brought to criminal responsibility, these plants will be withdrawn and destroyed (for cultivation- then they are definitely prohibited!).

Dmitrich, especially large size-2 lofofory....
Although I, of course, also know this from the words of "journalists"

Dmitrich, well, I won't talk about powders, this is from the "obvious-incredible" series

The obvious, the obvious . Don't hesitate. In practice, it often happens that a drug courier slips his potion into the luggage of an unsuspecting fellow traveler or even convinces him to put a small package with "powder" in his purse under various pretexts. Such naive fellow travelers, believe me, are found. As well as conscientious drug police officers who understand the situation and do not bring the unfortunate carrier to justice. I could also give other examples where the person who was found to have "powder" ("weed") is not guilty from the point of view of criminal law.

in Russia and Belarus, there were exactly the same situations-they passed a law, and immediately a demonstrative detention, and for some reason a well-known and socially active person. It ended in all cases without criminal cases.

That's right - no criminal cases. Quod erat demostrandum!

Example I remembered my insanity and idiocy. This is what's going on. I think the subject is.

Dmitrich, in the case of carriers who do not know what they are carrying, this is understandable, here we are talking about a control purchase. You understand the difference. I do not know how this is done, but from the point of view of banal logic, the buyer, who is also an agent, when approached, in the case of buying heroin, will ask for heroin and not toothpaste, And even after that you can get out that it was not heroin?

We do not know the details, maybe these agents who made this purchase with cacti, initially asked to sell it for the purpose of "putting it in". What then in this case? So without knowing the details, it is pointless to give advice to mine, it is better to find out in the personal details from Vladimir, and write your advice

Won't there be a contradiction? It turns out that a person, on the one hand, is a connoisseur of cacti, and this is a plus-on the other, he did not know about the properties? This is a smart lawyer should be. Please correct me if something is wrong.

I say: the subjective side of the crime is not only the awareness of the fact that the cactus contains a psychotropic substance, but also the purpose of growing, storing, transporting, and selling it. A person is guilty when he or she wants socially dangerous consequences to occur or knowingly allows them to occur. Vladimir did not want to grow and sell plants precisely as an object containing a psychotropic substance. He didn't even think about it. Cacti interest him as a biologist. But if they are officially forbidden to cultivate, you will have to part with them anyway.

I say: the subjective side of the crime is not only the awareness of the fact that the cactus contains a psychotropic substance, but also the purpose of growing, storing, transporting, and selling it. A person is guilty when he or she wants socially dangerous consequences to occur or knowingly allows them to occur. Vladimir did not want to grow and sell plants precisely as an object containing a psychotropic substance. He didn't even think about it. Cacti interest him as a biologist. But if they are officially forbidden to cultivate, you will have to part with them anyway.

Yes, Dmitritch, I see. God grant Vladimir good luck.

Dmitrich, especially large size-2 lofofory....
Although, of course, I also know this from the words of "journalists"

I do not know from memory the list approved by the government, to which I gave a link above. Moreover, I do not know the size of the psychotropic substance contained in lofofor. You can view it. But as I wrote above, one size is not enough. The crime consists of 4 signs. And in the absence of at least one of them, criminal liability is impossible. If there is no subjective side (in this case, intent) , then there is no criminal case. By the way, there are also crimes committed by negligence (for example, a traffic violation that caused serious harm to a person's health or death). But the crimes considered here are purely intentional.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 02.11.2011 21: 23

"An example of insanity and idiocy came to mind."

Hahahah, that's a blast ))))))) What about.. khkhkhkhmm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8FDfBMFJHM

Vorona, judging by the latest entries on cactus forums, now not even 2 lophophores, but 50g and 250g, that is, 50g is a large size, 250g of cacti, then this is an especially large size.

Dmitrich, in the case of carriers who do not know what they are carrying, this is understandable, here we are talking about a control purchase. You understand the difference. I do not know how this is done, but from the point of view of banal logic, the buyer, who is also an agent, when approached, in the case of buying heroin, will ask for heroin and not toothpaste, And even after that you can get out that it was not heroin?
We do not know the details, maybe these agents who made this purchase with cacti, initially asked to sell it for the purpose of "putting it in". What then in this case? So without knowing the details of mine advice to give pointless, it is better to find out in the personal details of Vladimir, and write your advice

But I agree with this. If a person who grows cacti and is aware of their properties is asked to sell a lofophora not in order to put it on the windowsill and admire it, but "to put it in" (I put it this way for brevity, it's clear what it's about) - this is a completely different song. Then-sorry-move over! If you call yourself gruzdy , get in the back. I gave my analysis based solely on the presumption of Vladimir's integrity (which I sincerely believe in). A person who knowingly sells narcotic and psychotropic rubbish is not a respectable person. And I did not and do not give advice to such people (which is why, as I wrote above, I have never worked and will never work as a lawyer). I believe that the case of Vladimir is a misunderstanding. I wish him good luck and forget about what happened as soon as possible.

"An example of insanity and idiocy came to mind."

Hahahah, that's a blast ))))))) What about.. khkhkhkhmm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8FDfBMFJHM

Fly away here this Madhouse in the post-Soviet space everywhere.

Vorona, judging by the latest entries on cactus forums, now not even 2 lophophores, but 50g and 250g, that is, 50g is a large size, 250g of cacti, then this is an especially large size.

Here, I looked at the list to which I gave the link above:
Cactus containing mescaline (plant species Lophophora williamsii), and other cactus species containing mescaline:
Large size (regardless of the phase of plant development) - from 2 plants
Extra large size (regardless of the phase of plant development) - from 10 plants
It's official in Russia. Ukraine should have its own list, approved by their government.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 02.11.2011 21: 46

Well, I just gave you an example,
but by the way, vodka, cigarettes, by the way, this is the same drug stuff that comes true quite legally, and very consciously, and there are a million problems from it and a small cart! Why is no one held accountable?
And for the cactus, which is not a drug at all, well, no sideways, attract? If they sell glue "moment" in the store, and they will buy it with the words - "I need to insert it" , then the seller also needs to be held accountable if he sells?

We do not have any rules at all, and your list is outdated, I advise you to ask, I do not think that the cactus growers forum will write misinformation, there were links to literally recent changes.

Well, I just gave you an example,
but by the way, vodka, cigarettes, by the way, this is the same drug stuff that comes true quite legally, and very consciously, and there are a million problems from it and a small cart! Why is no one held accountable?
And for the cactus, which is not a drug at all, well, no sideways, attract? If they sell glue "moment" in the store, and they will buy it with the words - "I need to insert it" , then the seller also needs to be held accountable if he sells?

A crime is a socially dangerous act, the commission of which is prohibited by criminal law (for the commission of which criminal liability occurs). If the sale of vodka and cigarettes is recognized as a crime and the legislator introduces a corresponding article in the criminal code, then they will be involved.
The same applies to the Moment glue. As for the cactus, we can be indignant as much as we want, but the law has been passed and it is valid. There is Article 231 in the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation. There is a government-approved list of prohibited plants, which includes Lophophora williamsii. And we must somehow live with this and take it into account. Democracy, by the way, is also about law-abiding. To demand by legal means the repeal or introduction of a law is one thing. But as long as the law is in effect , it must be observed.
P.S. However, I personally would like to hope that I will not live to see the sale of vodka recognized as a crime.

We do not have any rules at all, and your list is outdated, I advise you to ask, I do not think that the cactus growers forum will write misinformation, there were links to literally recent changes.

You're wrong. This list was approved by the Government of the Russian Federation on November 27, 2010. It is the last and current one. As for cactus growers , they are cactus growers, not lawyers.

Hahaha, here you probably need to say something else - some countries simply will not survive the recognition of the sale of vodka as a crime, since vodka is in most cases the only joy of oblivion and its possibility )))

As for the laws-there is a good example - many things that were considered legal in Nazi Germany are now declared criminal, and people have received criminal penalties for following those laws
The law prohibiting the cultivation of lophophora is nonsense, as well as the law prohibiting the maintenance of pythons and boas.

We do not have any rules at all, and your list is outdated, I advise you to ask, I do not think that the cactus growers forum will write misinformation, there were links to literally recent changes.

I do not know what kind of list cactus growers write about, but the list that Dmitrich gave a link to is quite valid.
http://www.consultant.ru/online/base/?req=...07635;page=esse

But this is in Russia. I do not know what the situation is with our Ukrainian comrades.

By the way, here is a complete list of plants that were outlawed in Russia:

Blue lotus (plant species Nymphea caerulea)

Mushrooms of any kind containing psilocybin and / or psilocin

Mescaline-containing cactus (plant species Lophophora williamsii), and other mescaline-containing cactus species

Cat (plant of the species Catha edulis)

Coca bush (any plant of the genus Erythroxylon)

Cannabis (plant of the genus Cannabis)

Sleeping poppies (Papaver somniferum L plant) and other Papaver poppies containing narcotic drugs

Rose of Hawaii (plant species Argyreia nervosa)

Sage of fortune-tellers (plant of the species Salvia divinorum)

Ephedra (plant of the genus Ephedra L)

Here http://cactuslove.ru/phorum/read.php?4,122264,159104,quote=1

The same applies to the Moment glue.

If they "sniff out" what I've highlighted in red, then we can all be involved here........ Don't eat right:

Pictures:

_______.jpg — (59.42к)

Dmitrich, the list of plants is not complete, but parsley???
In glue like acetone - the main source of nirvana.

Hahaha, here you probably need to say something else - some countries simply will not survive the recognition of the sale of vodka as a crime, since vodka is in most cases the only joy of oblivion and its possibility )))

Well, that's a lot of work. Along with alcoholism, there is bulimia . Well, ban food (or limit it?). For me personally, alcohol is a good attribute of a feast, friendly communication, if you want - an indispensable component of some dishes (dumplings without a stack are not dumplings). By the way, how do you feel about a glass from a misted bottle with frost and under borscht with garlic?

As for the laws-there is a good example - many things that were considered legal in Nazi Germany are now declared criminal, and people have received criminal penalties for following those laws
The law prohibiting the cultivation of lophophora is nonsense, as well as the law prohibiting the maintenance of pythons and boas.

Your example is an exception to the rule, which the general rule only confirms. Nazi Germany is an undemocratic state. And the Nazis were punished by a court - an international tribunal. In the Netherlands, by the way, marijuana is partially legalized. But it is also banned for circulation not only in Russia. As for the lophophora, I did not ask whether its free circulation is prohibited in other countries. But, as you can see, at least two countries have such a ban: Russia and Ukraine.

If they "sniff out" what I've highlighted in red, then we can all be involved here........ Don't eat right:

There's a lot of fun out there besides ETS)

In glue like acetone - the main source of nirvana.

Acetone is sold in its pure form in any household: why sniff it out of glue?
But ethyl acetate horseradish to get just like that.

I don't drink vodka And I don't like borscht by the way, it's sour)
There are also traditional ancient drinks, wine, for example, and the culture of consumption should also be, otherwise you can get drunk to hell with wine and beer and even kifir.

Not democratic.. democracy..uecracy.. Was Libya also not a democratic country? Tell us a bedtime story about democratic states It's also like the joke about the Chukchi people who came to the library with the question: "give me the book " Chukchi-developed people", and they answer - science fiction on the second floor!

vasiliy-feoktistov, how do I know that, you need to ask those teenagers who sniff it ) Actually, acetone hasn't been sold for a long time, it's kind of a precursor, like potassium permanganate, vinegar anhydride, whatever, and sugar.. Oh, well, I joked about sugar

vasiliy-feoktistov, how do I know that, you need to ask those teenagers who sniff it ) Actually, acetone hasn't been sold for a long time, it's kind of a precursor, like potassium permanganate, vinegar anhydride, whatever, and sugar.. Oh, well, I was joking about sugar

Acetone.

Anasha

Here http://cactuslove.ru/phorum/read.php?4,122264,159104,quote=1

So what - "here"? They refer to the same decree of the Government of the Russian Federation No. 934 of November 27, 2010. Read the original source - the text of the decree itself - I gave the link. There are also two lists: for the purposes of Article 231 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation (cultivation-here 2 and 10 plants), and for the purposes of articles 228, 228.1 and 229 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation (acquisition, storage, transportation, sale, theft and extortion of such plants-here already 50 and 250).. You should be more careful. By the way, the number of plants containing narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances, or their parts containing narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances, is determined after drying to a constant mass at t +110 ... +115 degrees Celsius .

Dmitrich, the list of plants is not complete, but parsley???

It's not about that. Curly parsley (and only it) Rospotrebnadzor has added to the SanPiN "Hygienic requirements for food safety and nutritional value". It is not included in the list according to the decree of the Government of the Russian Federation No. 934 of November 27, 2010. And, therefore, there is no criminal liability.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 02.11.2011 22: 47

I don't drink vodka And I don't like borscht by the way, it's sour)
There are also traditional ancient drinks, wine, for example, and the culture of consumption should also be, otherwise you can get drunk to hell with wine and beer and even kifir.

Well, if you don't drink, that's fine. This is your choice. And here I am (like many, many...) - I consume with pleasure. This is also a drink. And it has quite a solid history. And the culture of consumption when drinking vodka (as well as cognac, whiskey, and tequila...) it is also not excluded. As for borscht, you probably just weren't lucky. You haven't tried the real thing!

Not democratic.. democracy..uecracy.. Was Libya also not a democratic country? Tell us a bedtime story about democratic states It's also like the joke about the Chukchi people who came to the library with the question: "give me the book " Chukchi-developed people", and they answer - science fiction on the second floor!

Roman, let's start talking about politics. Not because I have nothing to say to you (as I believe I have nothing to say to you), but because we will not come to a common denominator, and long arguments on this topic here are a flood. We will not flood.

Well, I just gave you an example,
but by the way, vodka, cigarettes, by the way, this is the same drug stuff that comes true quite legally, and very consciously, and there are a million problems from it and a small cart! Why is no one held accountable?
And for the cactus, which is not a drug at all, well, no sideways, attract? If they sell glue "moment" in the store, and they will buy it with the words - "I need to insert it" , then the seller also needs to be held accountable if he sells?

In an ideal world, all substances will be legalized altogether-just so that users don't harm anyone but themselves. And the loot that is currently being spent on wrestlers will be used to treat those who are not hopeless.

And all prohibition-enriches producers of booze and tobacco and creates problems, including peaceful cactus growers.

The problem with the cult of vodka, and cigarettes too, is that these very "many many" in an aggressive form are forced to drink, otherwise "you cho, do not respect me??!" and unpleasant consequences in the form of any hindrances and obstacles. This manifests itself in different ways in different environments, in the academic environment in its own way, among workers/peasants in its own way, but the essence is the same-it is the imposition of use in order to create a certain collective unity. Some people can't even imagine communicating without doing this, and there are really a lot of them, but don't forget rule 95%

Culture of vodka consumption.. I don't know, I don't know.. It's just that there is probably a difference in the paradigm of use-in how. In Western countries, they drink mainly to emphasize the charms of life, in the post-SSR - to forget. In the second case, the culture of consumption is very difficult to get the desired effect, so to speak.

And if you legalize substances, then again, everything depends on the "paradigm"- what is good for the Dutch-Russian-death The fact is that now the one who wants to, will always find his "substance", being more or less of legal age, but at an early stage, in childhood and adolescence, with this ban is more difficult, and perhaps this plays some important role. If this ban did not exist, it is not clear what civilizational prospects would then be possible, a rollback to the level of Indians from Mexico, or tribes in Africa, where all substances are available.

  

Roman, you write a lot of things correctly, but the thread is about something else:

V. Savchuk's problems - What's going on? --