Are insects able to dream?

I don't think insects have dreams
The fact that dogs, cats, and other mammals have dreams can still be assumed, given that the structure of their nervous system is quite similar to that of humans. I.e., they have a cerebral cortex, all sorts of reticular formations, hippocampuses, and so on, which is inherent in humans, and that (at least if to believe physiologists, i.e. to consider the phenomenon of dreams from a purely materialistic position) determines the possibility of dreaming. In insects, however, the nervous system is many times more primitive than in mammals, and therefore it is impossible to assume that these organisms, which are not far removed from worms and centipedes in the development of the nervous system, dream. In general, if you read the literature on the behavior of insects (for example, the unforgettable work of J. A. Fabre "Mores of Insects"), then the difference in the "nervous activity" of insects and higher creatures (the same mammals, birds, even reptiles) immediately catches your eye. In contrast, six-legged creatures are practically incapable of LEARNING - they are more like small automatons in this respect, capable of clearly executing a built-in program, but immediately giving failure with any significant deviations from the "usual" scenario. They are as different from mammals in this respect as a modern computer is from eight-bit Dendy video game consoles from my childhood

I agree with the previous author that insects do not dream.
But I absolutely disagree that insects are not capable of learning! Such views were popular only until the middle of the last century, when they proved that insects are capable of the simplest forms of learning, such as associative learning. Further - more, it turned out that insects also have cognitive processes - a manifestation of higher nervous activity (generalization, extrapolation). Moreover, insects outperform even birds and mammals in some behavioral tasks. Read Masokhin-Porshnyakov, Reznikova, Frisch, Tinbergen and you will never say that insects are not capable of learning! I note that the most" intelligent " were the public hymenoptera (bees, ants, wasps), on which the vast majority of such experiments were conducted.

Read Masokhin-Porshnyakov, Reznikova, Frisch, Tinbergen and you will never say that insects are not capable of learning!

That's how it is! This is very interesting: I will try to find something from the works of the authors proposed by you on the Internet, so as not to remain ignorant in this matter: this is necessary, misinformed a person, based on the views of half a century ago

About the ability to learn - You, Bolivar, struck me with this fact. After all, this is amazing, and so much so that I will even, perhaps, search for the literature you mentioned. Thank you.

About dreams: I continue to think about this topic. If we assume that the insect does not see dreams (and most likely it does, here I tend to share your opinions), then the question begins to occupy me: what then happens to it (the insect)? When it functions and leads an active lifestyle, instincts work (well, or whatever it is that works in insects). And when it "sleeps" - it turns out, it is almost just "absent"? But a "sleeping" insect is still not a dead insect, and this state is different from death. Except for the aspect that it supports its vital functions. I suspect that the question is rather rhetorical, because the phenomenon of sleep in humans is poorly studied, poorly described, and, in addition, constantly faces the lack of a suitable language of description. But the field of activity and study, in my opinion, is almost limitless.

We can only hope that we will somehow manage to survive until the moment when the veil of fog that hides such an amazing phenomenon as "sleep"will somehow be removed.

yes, they train and learn to do amazing things. I read a report about Achel once. Well, orientation by the polarization of light, bee swarms, migration-these are, of course, instincts (or with elements of learning?), but I would not say that it is nervous.the system is so primitive...

Sleep is not death, of course, and not even winter peace (that's when you can review dreams - - - all Collected works. Tolstoy in 90 volumes!). Both at night and in winter, there are processes and analysis in the nervous system. But, I'm afraid they don't see dreams as such....omission....

That's how it is! This is very interesting: I will try to find something from the works of the authors proposed by you on the Internet, so as not to remain ignorant in this matter: this is necessary, misinformed a person, relying on the views of half a century ago

Entomology is not just about beetle taxonomy

About the ability to learn - You, Bolivar, struck me with this fact. After all, this is amazing, and so much so that I will even, perhaps, search for the literature you mentioned. Thank you.

This is really very interesting. If possible, also read Lobashev and Lopatina, they are actually pioneers of this field in Russia.
Recently published a book by Zh. I. Reznikova " Intelligence and language of animals and humans."I highly recommend it.
And then there's the language of ants...

yes, they train and learn to do amazing things. I read a report about Achel once. Well, orientation in the polarization of light, bee swarms, migration-these are, of course, instincts (or with elements of learning?).

Yes, of course with elements. Not everything is so hard-wired. Bee dances are generally a separate conversation, there are still disputes there.

Necrocephalus-in classical biology, the conditioned reflexes of ciliates are discussed, whether it's insects! Ants are generally smarter than us! (joke) I just think that it is the ants who are the most "intelligent", that is, they have the best learning abilities. In addition, insects have mushroom-shaped bodies in the brain that are responsible for higher nervous activity. So, in my opinion, it is impossible at the current level of knowledge to say whether they see "dreams" or not. It is often said that ants do not "sleep" at all, but here, in my opinion, the problem is what is considered a dream. Definitely - this is not just a decrease in the activity of the body, and maybe the ants just become more sluggish at night and that's it. Then they don't see it. But maybe it's not so simple and-the devil knows-maybe they see something there of their own, "ant-like".

You'll have to differ a little in your opinion
Let's think about it: insects have a rudimentary brain. They can sleep. If they are inclined to learn, then they also have a memory (who would doubt it). Since they are experiencing certain events, they need to learn, remember, and process them, so most likely they should have dreams. You just need to understand at what level it is - if a person practically does not remember their dreams, and sometimes does not see them at all (i.e., never remembers them), and most people have the lowest dream awareness, then in insects it most likely passes without a trace.

You'll have to differ a little in your opinion
Let's think about it: insects have a rudimentary brain. They can sleep. If they are inclined to learn, then they also have a memory (who would doubt it). Since they are experiencing certain events, they need to learn, remember, and process them, so most likely they should have dreams. You just need to understand at what level it is - if a person practically does not remember their dreams, and sometimes does not see them at all (i.e., never remembers them), and most people have the lowest awareness of dreams, then in insects it most likely passes without a trace.

You'll offend me - I remember my dreams almost after every night, and sometimes several of them
Yes, and the "germ" is a good germ containing up to 90% of all nerve cells!
But in general, the fact that they learn is not a fact and remember is not a fact that they dream. After all, in fact, dreams are something-the result of spontaneous excitation of some parts of the brain that are not controlled during sleep, whether this is the case in insects during the general inhibition of the body - as far as I understand - is not known.

Entomology is not just about beetle taxonomy

I know, but it's her I'm primarily interested in

2 Chromocenter - about the conditioned reflexes of infusoria-this is something of a joke, right? I can't believe it somehow...

2 Chromocenter - about the conditioned reflexes of infusoria-this is something of a joke, right? I can't believe it somehow...

If only... what a joke! They really learn to swim, if I'm not mistaken, into the light. If I find it, I'll give you a link.

I know, but it's her I'm primarily interested in

Suum cuique

I'm afraid that the infusoria floating into the light is just a positive phototaxis.

I'm afraid that the infusoria floating into the light is just a positive phototaxis.

No, not only that. As far as I remember, there are some rudiments of reflexes there.

There is a very funny theory about dreams!!!

There is a very funny theory about dreams!!!

Why?

That's it.. Why? Because of the mystical significance attached to dreams? Not seriously..

If only... what a joke! They really learn to swim, if I'm not mistaken, into the light. If I find it, I'll give you a link.

D

At Moscow State University Tushmalov's position was held by

I'm afraid that the infusoria floating into the light is just a positive phototaxis.
There are not only taxis, but also addiction and some other forms of modifiable behavior.


D
At Moscow State University, Tushmalova was the head of this department.
Right. At the Department of GNI of the Biofactory Faculty.
Who is interested in:
Tushmalova N. A. Functional mechanisms of acquired behavior in lower invertebrates, Moscow: MSU Publishing House, 1986.

But I wonder if insects have hallucinations. For example, if you give a fly a drug (and such experiments on fruit flies were conducted, I read it heremaybe she'll start having visual hallucinations. The question is how to check it: teach a fly to be afraid of some visual stimulus (or vice versa to love), give a drug, it will have hallucinations, and it will behave the same as with a real stimulus, if it does not switch off, of course.

anything is possible, as already shown by

I don't know about flies, but ants from esters behave like drunks - and they don't walk smoothly and don't listen to signals from strangers. In printsyp, it seems that hallucination is physiologically a simpler thing than sleep.

Sorry, I'm a layman.Can you tell me where the butterflies sleep and whether they sleep every night?And when the caterpillar-butterfly-pupa transformation takes place, does it also sleep?Then is this dream different from the dream she sees every night-day?Thanks!

In theory, they sleep on branches, leaves and tree trunks, on grass, on the ground, under shelters.. if they are sleeping.. It was - I was going to school, there was a clearing on the way. The Argus plebeians were sitting there. I started touching some of them and looking at them. They were asleep when I took them, they were slowly coming out of their trance state.
Whether they sleep every night is hard to say.. Probably more thermophilic people sleep, others do not sleep less or at all.
What happens when a butterfly is in a pupal state is generally difficult, it is unlikely that it even lends itself to descriptions similar to human sensations.
And whether one differs from the other is generally unknown to anyone. No one will ever be able to feel like a butterfly and survive all this. They have completely different processes, which are also expressed in a completely different way. To say that this is definitely impossible..

I don't think insects have dreams

And here's what Google immediately gave out:
On a blizzardy winter night, Ladybug was sleeping sweetly in her cozy burrow under the roots of an old apple tree and dreaming of summer. She dreamed of a green lawn ...

So the diapause. There are hardly any dreams there...

Mammals have a special area of the brain that blocks signals to skeletal muscles during sleep. If it is temporarily disabled, the animal will move according to its sleep pattern. So we "spied" what cats dream about. So, I think the question about insects can be solved experimentally, and not by reasoning.

Not spam, but nonsense.

You, dear ! Omar. A specialist entomologist, perhaps ?

don't sleep at all? nonsense

don't sleep at all? delusion

Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense !!! We don't know any other comment options.
Sleep is the physiological process of restoring the electrical
and chemical structure of the brain. Insects do not even have a brain, they
have clusters of nerve cells that are simpler than the human spinal cord,
or rather similar in structure.
When you sleep, you do not die of suffocation, do not walk under yourself,
do not cool down to room temperature - why ?
Yes, because there are centers of vital activity in you that
never sleep while you are alive ? Be sure that these "cents"
exceed the structure of the insects ' nerve nodes
, and there is no need for insects to sleep.
In my opinion, even frogs do not sleep (but this is not a fact) - they croak all night,
and during the day they escape from hishniks.
And any student can say "nonsense"!
Argue, comrade !

"And any student can say "nonsense"!
Argue, comrade ! "
And I am a schoolboy

I just looked experimentally at butterflies and beetles in the morning. When you find them, they seem to be asleep. If you report - some immediately run to no one knows where, but most do not immediately begin to crawl, then they begin to crawl slowly, etc. until they "wake up" and do not run and fly as usual, then there must be some kind of slowing down of the activity of their cluster of nerve cells, creating a state of either sleep, or something similar. If they are more primitive, this does not mean that they do not need rest. They're not perpetual motion machines..

Oops ! Students on the forum !
This is a person talking to you , for whom school is just a pair of torn sneakers left in the closet.
When you disturb beetles there, it is their protective reaction, and in the morning they
move away from the night cold (they need to warm up in the sun).
Insects are primitive organisms - those whose behavior is already easily
recreated (not completely) in robotic laboratories.

"those whose behavior is already easily
recreated (not completely) in robotics laboratories"

Where is the guarantee that this behavior is the same, that both occur in the same way?
It's like the memory of a person and a computer - both can save, erase and reproduce a lot of information, images, sounds, smells and other things, but the computer works on the principle of 101010101, and the brain in a completely different way. But to understand exactly how the brain works, you need to study the brain and conduct research and experiments in this area, and not comprehend the computer.
Therefore, it is necessary to experiment on insects, otherwise..

"When you disturb the beetles there, it is their protective reaction, and in the morning they
move away from the night cold (they need to warm up in the sun)."
I'm not talking about a defensive reaction. Let's say nocturnal insects - at night they do not warm up from the Sun, and during the day they warm up enough from the heat. And here is the question, why then, let's say, a moth that is sitting on a tree, you touch it, and it falls as if dead and only on the ground begins to recover and only then flies away.
In theory, their rudimentary brain should also "cool down" after some time of work, rest is needed for the whole body.

Who are you, guest? You probably didn't sleep for a long time, went without shoes in the cold (the sneakers are torn!) and they caught a cold in the brain. Your own, of course. It's very sad. If you put a hot water bottle on your head and it thaws slightly, remember that most higher insects are day or night active. Remember that there are moths that sleep during the day and most often do not fly, despite the hot weather. It's the same with beetles. There are many more examples that you probably don't know about. To simulate the behavior in a robotic laboratory of a higher winged insect with complete transformation seems to me personally an impossible task, if only because they are characterized by even the simplest, but still rational activity. And insects were no longer considered primitive creatures in the 19th century. Read Professor Mechnikov first.

Insects are primitive organisms - those whose behavior is already easily
recreated (not completely) in robotic laboratories.

A standard representation of the CROWN of GOD'S CREATION in torn sneakers.

Yes, the sneakers are torn from rats-gnawed !
But you react like this - I can send them to you by mail !
Well, I wrote clearly "not completely" - robots are made entirely according to the type of crawling insects. And to recreate the fullness, even bacteria can not yet. Naive as children
or pretending to be ! Don't put a shadow on the fence!
The term "period of activity" means that the insect
has occupied a certain food niche in its life, including by time of day.
Molecules cooled to -273 are also not active - maybe they are sleeping ?
They talk here about sleep, and not periods of activism-you do not wander around the room at night, you lie like a turp-this is a dream !
And at the expense of "cold brain" - so you put sneakers on your head chtoli ?

The food niche has nothing to do with it. Many diurnal insects can eat at night, while diurnal insects can eat during the day. You won't believe it, they really often eat at the wrong time! It's just that the activity time is different, that's all. And it can be shifted experimentally, i.e. make the daytime nighttime, and vice versa.

The food niche has nothing to do with it. Many diurnal insects can eat at night, while diurnal insects can eat during the day. You won't believe it, they really often eat at the wrong time! It's just that the activity time is different, that's all. And it can be shifted experimentally, i.e. make the daytime nighttime, and vice versa.

That's it ! Where is sleep and where is "activity"! - you answered your own question.
And nocturnal insects, of course, sit motionless during the day - "birds can peck" otherwise ! And there I wrote about the basal functions of the human brain,
which do not sleep and almost do not change their activity - this is not an argument for you that
some other nervous systems (more primitive-in insects) also do not sleep !
The concept of "Food niche" applies to both types of food, methods of its extraction, the period of its extraction, and so on !
You try to argue but you don't know how !
I have the honor! By the way, I'm not a guest, but a forum participant, just scored on registrats.