Identifications based on photos - who needs them and why?

Dear Salix, I'm sorry, but you really are talking about Salix.
In fact, the definition of insects is very directly related to taxonomy, or rather, taxonomy begins with it, and probably ends with it. If you are interested, then you would create a survey of who determines insects for what reason (we have already found out who catches them for what reason). But if you read the topics, then in some cases it is clear why they are defined. I will tell you for myself, I deal with dragonflies, and I consult with experts live to determine their definition, but as for beetles, this is, say, an expansion of horizons, or something. Naturally, I double-check all the consultations using the qualifiers, and I'm not too lazy to look through them. But you will pay attention to what battles are developing around the definition, for example, chernotelok, people do not point a finger at the sky, discuss specific signs, etc. And, rounding off, it will not be difficult to find out who is " Acidic_Burn (http://molbiol.ru/forums/", or by contacting the author, or by crawling on the Internet. And here on the forum there are very serious experts in their groups, I think you can trust them.
PS: And you identify an unfamiliar group by the determinant, when there is no reason to push off, there is no collection for reference, and specialists live on the other end of our boundless homeland.

By the way, I really like the loyal moderation style of Mr. Bolivar, everywhere it would be like this

I don't know what this grumbling is all about. People (sometimes just far from entomology) ask - how can you not answer if you know? Especially if you see something on the monitor that you know very well.... or do you have a feeling that our knowledge is too often really in demand by society? I don't have one like this

Willow can also be identified from the photo

Dear Salix, IMHO your opinion only makes sense from the standpoint of a scientific approach to any process. However, this forum, in addition to the scientific component, also carries the process of live communication of people who have a passion for entomology, whether professionals or amateurs. Moreover, such communication increases the degree of knowledge of participants in this area. It's no secret that pros often get important information from amateur collections! Who cares about the exact definition of taxa (for an article, abstract, diploma, dissertation, etc.), even a no brainer is clear that the final solution to this issue is in contact with narrow specialists live! And for many forum participants, the definition of a photo is like a vector of direction, where to go to accurately identify an object, since not everyone can afford to have a full set of literature on the definition.

Good day, dear ones!
On this forum, I belong exclusively to the category of questioners
But believe me - I haven't experienced such a huge pleasure from virtual communication for a long time! Not an empty "la-la-la", when an empty verbal chatter comes not from the need to get some information, but from the presence of a huge amount of unfilled time.
On this forum, I am impressed by the general serious and positive attitude of the participants - I have never heard offensive words and phrases here, I have not felt disdain for my questions, I have not seen arrogance and arrogance.
Everyone who comes and asks this question will definitely get an answer to each of their questions! And this-agree! "not often seen in our world today

Why do we ask our questions? Why do we want to know the entomological name of the person depicted in our photo?
It seems to me that everyone has their own goals. But the search process itself is important! The fact that a person becomes not indifferent to the subject of shooting, that the instinct of knowledge, self-improvement, and intellectual growth is awakened! That's great!
After all, only those who are not afraid to ask questions and show that they do not know something are not hopeless
Yes, I don't have any qualifiers or reference books on entomology.
Yes, I am a complete amateur in this field.
Yes, I ask too many questions.
But if it weren't for this forum with its wonderful participants and amazing atmosphere, I wouldn't have felt the magic of entomological taxonomy, I wouldn't have understood who I meet in the field, in the garden, in the forest - I wouldn't have treated them as concrete, completely tangible and having a kind of "passport" to creatures who live not only now, but lived hundreds, thousands of years ago!
I am grateful to this forum for the opportunity to feel like a Dunno yet and not lose the desire to find out and ask!

Thank you all for the answers, it's very nice to read them (so the forum is really the same as I thought )
Salix, you have already received a decent response. I would like to add that by highlighting the section "Classification of insects", we understood that identifying insects from photos would be its main topic - you can see for yourself how much it is in demand and relevant. By the way, look up at the title and you will see that the section is called "Classification of insects-taxonomy, taxonomy, definition", so that the topics contained in it correspond to the declared topic.
The forum is moderated by me, I also distribute fouls (not often - we have serious people, after all), but no one sees them except the guilty person and moderators (this is not a pillory).

I agree with everyone, but one thing is still jarring . Unjustified creation and not rational expansion of topics for each individual bug. There are also well-founded topics for different groups of insects there: eardrums, beetles, etc.

I'll answer it first, then finish reading it..

I want to ask a couple of questions

1. To simultaneously satisfy your own curiosity and communicate with the people.
2. You can't. CREDULITY (in the right sense of the word) is hardly peculiar to any of the respected forum members. Distrust and check!
3. Nothing.
And one last thing.

There is almost no discussion of theoretical problems.

Well, suggest it! It will be interesting, we will discuss it!

The benefits are huge in my opinion! Personally, I found the names of many animals that I couldn't identify at all. I also learned a lot of things, paid attention to a lot of things, learned about the signs of many insects, began to understand more insects, especially beetles, which I would not have received just sitting at a microscope with a determinant (which I still do from time to time), since the description is one thing - the real picture of what is happening is another..

And write the name of the scientist.. of course, it is possible, but not always necessary - this is entomology, not a PR company for entomologists

And write the name of the scientist.. of course, it is possible, but not always necessary - this is entomology, not a PR company for entomologists

Here, in fact, not everything is so clear, because under the same names, different scientists could understand completely different species. By adding the author's last name after the name of the species, we indicate in whose understanding we interpret this species. Pay attention to old and modern taxonomic works; very often both have different surnames in the same names. In botany, it is generally accepted to indicate not only the author, but also the author, for example, of a new generic combination after brackets [Genus species (Author1) Author2]. This is not PR, but rather a fairly convenient presentation of information. Yes, they also put a year after the author to make it easier to find a job

This post was edited by Insect Expert - 24.04.2007 20: 03

Thank you for your comprehensive answers. Under the pressure of such universal friendliness, I will not even develop the topic, otherwise the impression of a dispute for the sake of a dispute will be created. I was interested in the reaction to such an aggressive problem statement, especially in the light of the fact that many of my colleagues are even more militant about interactive definitions.

As for the organization of the forum, here I remain with my opinion. Separating the photo definitions section from everything else would only be good. Topics with calls to determine something score absolutely everything. I assume that a new person may get the impression that they are only engaged in photo definitions here.

Toexectologist: Yes, they also put a year after the author to make it easier to find a job

Not only is it easier to find a job, but you can also specify the priority of the taxon name.

to Salix: I fully agree with you both on your first message and on your last. The forum has turned largely into cute, but often inadequate maxims of a respected RippeR (for example, an illiterate statement about a PR company for taxon authors. What did he even mean by that statement???) and others like him. As a result, I noticed a significant washout of literate participants over the course of the year. They are simply not interested (I found out this in a personal conversation with some of the unfortunately former participants). Meaningful and competent discussions are very often interrupted and drowned in ... Of course, allocating a reservation for near-scientific chatter would be clearly undemocratic, but this is at the discretion of the moderator. And so, I repeat, there is a loss of the professional level of the participants. If that's the way it's meant to be, then fine. If not , you need to take measures on the structure of the forum.

Taxologist: Yes, they also put a year after the author to make it easier to find a job
, not only easier to find a job, but also to indicate the priority of the taxon name.

There is a special conversation about priority, especially when you start digging through ancient literature, where not only synonyms, but also homonyms come up.

There's always someone who's not happy. Something's always wrong. Someone always leaves. Someone doesn't like the background color of the forum. Some people are not interested in Bonuses. Others complain about the dominance of beetles. THIS IS NORMAL!

2 Salix & Guest There is such a thing as the viability of the forum. If the topics in it are updated less than once a week , this is actually a dead forum and it doesn't do any good. You think that if I put "serious" topics in a separate subforum and it immediately comes to life and sparkles with colors, then you are mistaken. If you want to discuss them, go ahead and see who's bothering you. Topics are open and visible. But I don't see any enthusiasm. Do you think it's because no one can scroll down the page? I do not think so. But this is my personal IMHO, maybe I still don't notice the logs

In general, the topic is interesting, and if such a problem really exists , we will solve it. I am open to all suggestions. In this regard, please ask all dissatisfied people to express their attitude, especially to the "former participants" if they look here for old times ' sake (no irony in my words). All forum participants are dear to us and we don't want to lose them.

Here I would also like to understand the difference between a serious topic and a frivolous one. If, for example, 2 serious and highly scientific participants start discussing the subtleties of the taxonomy of the subgenus....., and Mr. Ripper wants to ask them something in his own way - do not let him in, ban him?

This post was edited by omar - 04/25/2007 09: 03

to Salix: to Salix: I fully agree with you both on your first message and on your last. The forum has turned largely into cute, but often inadequate maxims of a respected RippeR (for example, an illiterate statement about a PR company for taxon authors. What did he even mean by that statement???) and others like him. As a result, I noticed a significant washout of literate participants over the course of the year. They are simply not interested (I found out this in a personal conversation with some of the unfortunately former participants). Meaningful and competent discussions are very often interrupted and drowned in ... Of course, allocating a reservation for near-scientific chatter would be clearly undemocratic, but this is at the discretion of the moderator. And so, I repeat, there is a loss of the professional level of the participants. If that's the way it's meant to be, then fine. If not , you need to take measures on the structure of the forum.

Dear Guest, I, as an amateur, even somehow uncomfortable to express my opinion, but I will answer. Contradictions between professionals, amateurs and, especially, just random guests were, are and always will be! Specialists banal flood and "sucking" trivial questions by amateurs is certainly not interesting and, moreover, touching, as adults are touched by the naive statements of children! And I completely agree with you that competent specialists need a different, appropriate level of communication. However, if you make a separate subsection for Ph. D., PhD, etc.on the forum, I am sure that the number of participants in it will eventually tend to 0. Well-known entomologists communicate using fundamentally different methods and even in this scenario will not take part in the forum. This is also an indicator of the division into levels and existing contradictions in the scientific community! The forum itself cannot be divided into "smart" and "not so smart", as it is a forum! I think that many experts who participate in the forum (and there are quite a few of them according to the survey) simply know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, namely, among all the messages to select useful information for themselves and not complain that there are only morons and imbeciles around. Moreover, IMHO, such forum participants are pleased to provide a service to novice entomologists in the form of moral support, help in identifying and other information. It is a sign of respect that brings a degree of respect in return. Therefore, my resume is as follows-to participate in such a forum, or not-just an individual choice for everyone!

You know, gentlemen, when two professionals discuss "subtleties" among themselves by personal e-mail, it is, after all, hidden from the third, fourth, etc. professionals, who can very usefully interfere in the conversation (otherwise wait for the congress to discuss it publicly and openly). The obvious benefit of the forum and for the forum can be just in telling Mr. RippeR about the simplest rules of nomenclature (yes, at the same time, and spelling Russian, and, if suddenly he can master it, then Latin), but also practically in real time, as well as publicly (although many people avoid this, of course) the so-called "subtleties of the taxonomy of the subgenus...". That's why the subforum is called "Classification of insects", and not "Definition by non-professional photos for amateurs". If there are really serious conversations on it, then RippeR will not be interested there (I once tried to explain to him about the need to use genital analysis for the identification process - he is simply not interested and " ... difficult..."). And a specialist can always look into the subforum "Definitions from pictures" (although this is a completely incorrect lesson in finding out the "subtleties") and help a respected and interested in nature RippeR in definitions at least up to the genus.

Oh, guest, you should at least come up with a pseudonym.... And then you hide behind a stamp (what is it, by the way). In my opinion, there are very few professionals in a good sense of the word on the forum, literally on the fingers of one hand they can be counted. Very serious people with the Name are unlikely to be interested in this project and certainly will not participate in it. And to turn the forum into a sub-forum of 3-5 real professionals, besides, it seems to be different groups, seems to me a dubious idea.

Mr. Guest, I already wrote about the name of the subforum and its functions (and very clearly) several posts above, I don't understand why you clung to it? And what is the problem with discussing the "serious" issue that concerns you? You can't find the topic? It takes exactly 3-5 seconds to view the page. In addition, the main definition goes in the attached topics, with rare exceptions. For the life of me, I don't understand why this is a problem for you.
Oh, and stop being rude to Mr. Ripper, it doesn't do you any credit.

Oh, guest, you should at least come up with a pseudonym.... And then you hide behind a stamp (what is it, by the way).

About stamps here. BTW, the guest has a name...

Dear omar, I'd be glad not to be here. But for some reason, since this month I have been "deprived of accreditation" on the forum. That is, I have been a participant with a name for more than a year, and now I pass as a Guest, and even with a forcibly awarded stamp (this is all on the conscience of the site administration - I did not change the settings on the computer, maybe I violated some ethical guidelines of the founders). If you are interested in my professional status , I am a Doctor of biological sciences. And, to quote you: "Very serious people with a Name are unlikely to be interested in this project and certainly will not participate in it." I can responsibly inform you that a number of my good friends - Very serious people-the largest experts on certain groups of insects went to the forum and, unfortunately, left, frightened by the thought-utterances of Someone. I should probably follow their example, especially after I became persona non grata.

Yes, guest, Bolivar is right here. I think that in some years of your ontogeny, you knew no more about entomology than Ripper did, and most likely you were just as intensely and directly interested in it. I find it hard to imagine that you would immediately start dissecting the genitals of a certain group. And a Ripper can eventually turn out to be a good specialist, too. Think about it.

In no case, guest, do not leave us! Discuss it, we will be happy to listen to your words!

Dear omar, I'd be glad not to be here. But for some reason, since this month I have been "deprived of accreditation" on the forum. That is, I have been a participant with a name for more than a year, and now I pass as a Guest, and even with a forcibly awarded stamp (this is all on the conscience of the site administration - I did not change the settings on the computer, maybe I violated some ethical guidelines of the founders). If you are interested in my professional status , I am a Doctor of biological sciences. And, to quote you: "Very serious people with a Name are unlikely to be interested in this project and certainly will not participate in it." I can responsibly inform you that a number of my good friends - Very serious people-the largest experts on certain groups of insects went to the forum and, unfortunately, left, frightened by the thought-utterances of Someone. I should probably follow their example, especially after I became persona non grata.

No sanctions were applied to you, everything should work. Maybe you forgot your password? I can check with the administrator, it's not a problem. Finally, you can re-register if you want. Your statement that the pros were "afraid" of one of the amateur participants is strange, but after all, we live in a society and encounter different people. It is really necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff. As if you don't do this in science, there should be experience, and communication with students too. It's all very strange, by God.

Mr. Bolivar: The problem is not only with me, but also with those who did not stay on the forum. They simply "drowned" in the white noise and did not find anything interesting for themselves. And before RippeR, I am, of course, at least to blame for the fact that I could not once convince him to take the matter more seriously and not be afraid of relatively complex and slightly time-consuming, but much more correct than iconography, methods. Anger at one's own impotence always pours out unrighteously. Apologize.

Mr. Bolivar: The problem is not only with me, but also with those who did not stay on the forum. They simply "drowned" in the white noise and did not find anything interesting for themselves.

Um, themes don't just start on their own, they need to be created. And if the "interesting" topic is not supported, it will stall, these are the features of Internet forums. I still try to organize the" white noise", and it does not fill everything so much.

From the very beginning of the topic, I wanted to say a few words - but I didn't want to repeat the thoughts of other forum participants. But I'm sorry, it hurt.
Personally, I always like it when people are interested in nature. Of course, most of the posts are related to the "who is this?" section, but why is this not gymnastics for the mind? Think of Asimov's "Garden of Science" - as you go deeper into your group, don't forget about the world around you. For the sake of curiosity, I was interested to know who I photographed from butterflies and other groups, although my path is beetles. Although I can parry Prutkov Kozma that they say "you can not embrace the vast" - but going to this forum I do not feel that I am "sprayed" on a bunch of groups, distracting from my own. In my opinion, the forum is wonderful - great spaibo and participants and moderators, amateurs and professionals. This is the place where the amateur will gratefully listen to the expert's opinion, the specialist will be happy (!) share your knowledge with fans!

As for the "revocation of accreditation", I responsibly declare that on the Entomology forum (and on other molbiol forums), the ban (blocking of a participant) is simply incredibly rare, with very serious violations of the rules and only after 5 fouls in a row. We, at Entomology, have not yet had a participant who would have had more than one foul at the same time (and even those are very rare, hello to omar). There are no hidden reprisals, everything is always voiced to the violator. Therefore, all problems with authorization are purely technical problems that are easily solved by moderators and administrators, and you should contact them in this case.

As for "two specialists discussing subtleties by e-mail....", if they are interested in the opinion of the third or fourth, etc., then no one bothers them (at least it didn't bother me) to write a letter to them.
And to determine the beetle from the photo, I had to resort to it myself, and this is normal (provided that a qualified picture is taken).
And it is not shameful for a specialist to communicate with amateurs (he was also not born a specialist), but often useful, and for both.

I don't really understand the whole subject of the argument. If there are a lot of similar posts on the forum, then someone needs it. And it is necessary first of all for novice entomologists. This is where non-professionals communicate with professionals. Perhaps in large research centers, where there are no problems with finding information and you can get the necessary determinant or article at any time, there are no problems with determining it. But when you live on the edge of the universe, it can take a long time to get the right literature. And here, if the joint efforts fail to reliably identify the species, then you can at least find out the direction in which you need to move further. Yes, and they will give you a lot of good advice, and if necessary, they will also send you a scan of the desired article). But the main thing in all this is a friendly atmosphere!
Now about young guys like Ripper. If from the very beginning a person is bullied by the fact that he does not know something or does something wrong, then even if he has a great interest in entomology, it will not go further than interest. I have several examples where really smart guys turned out to be mediocre accountants or lawyers, and not entomologists. And all this is only due to the fact that in their youth they were well "slapped on the hands", reproaching them for ignorance of "elementary things", so to speak. No one is born a professional entomologist, they become over time comprehending all the subtleties of science and the same Ripper is still ahead! I believe that thanks to this forum (and definitions based on photos, among other things), interest is stimulated and knowledge gradually appears.
Now about professionals and amateurs. What about those people who did not reach the defense of their dissertation during the perestroika period or simply did not go to science, because they had to support their family, but, while working with their favorite group of insects, they reached true professionalism? Ignore their opinions and advice? In my opinion, this is stupid! And if the forum suggested something to me, then I will say thank you, and I will not demand a dissertation protection document from a person.

Dinushiku: yes, the reproach in this particular case is not ignorance, but unwillingness to develop further than pictures. And I would help you with any advice, or method, or literature, or materials, etc., believe me. I've already done this, and it all started with the forum.

  
Now about professionals and amateurs. What about those people who did not reach the defense of their dissertation during the perestroika period or simply did not go to science, because they had to support their family, but, while working with their favorite group of insects, they reached true professionalism? Ignore their opinions and advice? In my opinion, this is stupid! And if the forum suggested something to me, then I will say thank you, and I will not demand a dissertation protection document from a person.

That's right. Some of the Zinovites do not have a PhD, but there are no questions about their professionalism. And there are plenty of them among the bourgeoisie. So degrees
anks, alas, are not an indicator. And there are so many cadavers among the professors....

Dinusiku: "And if something was suggested to me on the forum, then I will say thank you, and I will not demand a dissertation protection document from the person"
- Are you sure that you were correctly prompted? And this, of course, without any reference to dissertation. But if the Forum washed professionals, then the question.

Dinushiku: yes, the reproach in this particular case is not ignorance, but unwillingness to develop further than pictures. And I would help you with any advice, or method, or literature, or materials, etc., believe me. I've already done this, and it all started with the forum.

If a person is initially able to think in a certain direction, then I think that over time he will reach the desired level. Now the pictures are interesting, but over time this will not be enough, you see, and it will come to the genitals. You just need to give him time, maybe change his methods. The potential is good! It is much more difficult (and maybe even useless) to cultivate interest from scratch.

Dinusiku: "And if something was suggested to me on the forum, then I will say thank you, and I will not demand a dissertation protection document from the person"
- Are you sure that you were correctly prompted? And this, of course, without any reference to dissertation. But if the forum washed up professionals, then the question.

I will try to double-check the determinant again, maybe find the place where I went wrong with the theses. Just thanks to hints, the search circle narrows down.

- Are you sure that you were correctly prompted?

Guest, what can you be 100% sure of, "other than death and taxes"?

First of all, in the feeling of inferiority of their own professionalism. Moreover, the more you know, the more you understand it.

Well, why so pessimistic?!!