Pieris (napi - bryoniae) complex: current status of the taxon

The genetics are quite strange, as if there are two types of napi.
Cladogram from Dinca et al, 2010. Complete DNA barcode reference library for a country’s butterfly fauna reveals high performance for temperate Europe

In my opinion, this is an interesting work on all indicators.

90% of butterflies in Romania (all 180 species are represented by samples) are identified by DNA more effectively than by external signs and the structure of the genitals.
The remaining 10 are either very close species or disputed taxa, or those that hybridize with each other.

http://www.ecbol.org/docs/Publications/Dinca_etal_2010.pdf

And apps, http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/con...0.1089.DC1.html

On the subject under discussion, in the appendix, with photos of butterflies, genitals, and discussion in the text


http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/con...101089supp4.pdf

2 rhopalocera.com

You are very much mistaken that the question of hybridization and the fecundity of hybrids has anything to do with the question of the independence of species.
Stradomsky has an article on this subject. Very revealing. I recommend.
"I have it"

The article by Vodolazhsky, Stradomsky and Kuznetsov does not say a word about the fact that the hybrid they discovered gave birth to offspring, which in turn gave birth to their own children. What this article showed you personally - I can't know, but it is quite clear to me: with the help of molecular analysis, it was shown that a hybrid of two similar species of pigeons was studied. These respected people did not draw any far-reaching conclusions, and absolutely correctly: the very fact of a single hybridization does not prove or show anything at all .

As for my misconceptions, please forgive me, but I was brought up on the definition of a species, which also includes such a requirement as the fecundity of offspring. And if hybrids of two closely related species reproduce (successfully!) and then - so there are no these two species, but there is one species in its different morphological (possibly) manifestations .

First. I didn't argue with that.

Second. So, the facts. You forget that any insect goes through more than one stage in its development, in most butterflies at least 2 stages are mobile. At what stage hybridization occurred = absolutely purple, since this is a discrete event. Proof of the fecundity of offspring can only serve as descendants themselves, everything else is near-scientific verbiage. It is generally incorrect to talk about heterozygosity in this example: we are talking about DNA samples, not chromosomes.

The message was edited rhopalocera.com - 11.11.2011 20: 17

Example of a first-generation hybrid sequence: heterozygote for the ITS2 gene. Most pronounced here is a large deletion in one of the alleles - a reading shift is obtained.

Pictures:

haplotypes.jpg — (222.07к)

Simple and clear))))

2 rhopalocera.com

Your post yesterday is an absolute mystery to me.
The process leading to hybridization occurs only at one stage…

Well, that was settled. Here is what Lavr Bolshakov writes about this::

The cladogram shown by B. V. shows that briony is not even a subspecies, but a mountain form of napi - there are no hiatus there. And the fact that it is isolated, it is because between the lowland napi and mountain isolation in the form of a forest belt. As for the number of generations, even in the forest and forest-steppe zones of ONE Ts. However, there is a difference in this in a number of species, sometimes stepwise. The name "bryony" is valid only for the European Alpine population, while other regions have their own isolates and subspecies. It is bad that foreign rich amateurs publish books, but do not read the works of Russian intellectuals - back in 1968, Danilevsky and Kuznetsov in laboratory experiments on crossbreeding (AND WHO OF THE CURRENT RICH DID IT???) they proved that bryony is no more than a subspecies.

Here is what Lavr Bolshakov writes about this::

The cladogram shown by B. V. shows that briony is not even a subspecies, but a mountain form of napi - there are no hiatus there. And the fact that it is isolated, it is because between the lowland napi and mountain isolation in the form of a forest belt. As for the number of generations, even in the forest and forest-steppe zones of ONE Ts. However, there is a difference in this in a number of species, sometimes stepwise. The name "bryony" is valid only for the European Alpine population, while other regions have their own isolates and subspecies. It is bad that foreign rich amateurs publish books, but do not read the works of Russian intellectuals - back in 1968, Danilevsky and Kuznetsov in laboratory experiments on crossbreeding (AND WHO OF THE CURRENT RICH DID IT???) they proved that bryony is no more than a subspecies.

The cladogram shows the level of genetic differences between typical napi and highland bryonia in Hungary (1.8 %). There can be no genetic differences between the form and type.
There is practically no isolation of mountain populations by the forest belt. Rutabagas fly almost everywhere, including along riverbeds where there is meadow vegetation. By the way, not only Danilevsky, but also Europeans proved that hybridization between these taxa is underway. It also occurs in other, good species and is considered one of the areas of speciation. On the cladogram, one napi is considered hybrid.
The problem is that both forms (subspecies, views?) they can meet together.
No one disputes that the number of generations in different populations may differ depending on the conditions, but if my experiments are repeated, then in bryonia one generation per year is fixed genetically.
I agree that it is appropriate to use the name bryonia for European populations, but other epithets should be used for other high-altitude or high-latitude populations, so maybe you can call it a subspecies.

This post was edited by Valentinus - 12.11.2011 15: 27

Personal observations and collections:
"... both forms (subspecies, species?) they can meet together... " - indeed, in the Polar Urals, both forms sit at the same puddle on the bottom of the roads (photo 1);
"...I agree that the name bryonia is appropriate for European populations..."-in May, bryonia-like individuals are rarely found in Udmurtia (photo2).

Pictures:

DSC00102.JPG — (256.98к)


DSC00107.JPG — (242.5к)

it would be better if you captured the whole gamut of transitions from briony to napi. I once scored 2 boxes from one place-in the north of Nizhny Novgorod region-in one meadow

it would be better if you captured the whole gamut of transitions from briony to napi. I once scored 2 boxes from one place-in the north of Nizhny Novgorod region - in one meadow

I did so, with all the dope, I collect all transitions (forms) and generations. By the way, I get a certain buzz. Great in small)))))