Changing the color

Legs? Curious! How do you dry them?
Did you dissect the stickman?"

Darkening of the abdomen in praying mantises is normal, sometimes dissection does not save you from this.
Drying grasshoppers in the light or in the dryer? I have when in the dryer, it happens, the color is preserved, as a rule, fatal darkening occurs

On a cabinet, in a box (open); dark as twilight.

On a cabinet, in a box (open); dark as twilight.

I also have blacksmiths and mantises always darken to a complete disgrace. I talked about this topic with an employee of the Novosibirsk Zoo Museum, and he explained it as follows. These insects are predators, they have strong digestive enzymes, and when they dry out, a chemical reaction occurs (they "digest themselves"). That is, it is not the same process as discoloring green butterflies, and twilight will not help here. Only dissection. Although, by the way, it does not always seem to be predation: Locusta migratoria seems to eat grass, but also I have darkened - and the copy was great...
By the way, can someone clarify from the point of view of a biochemist what happens to green butterflies when they fade, when they come into contact with water and chemical reagents (ethyl acetate, chloroform)? If you know what is really going on there, that is, what kind of chemical reaction, then you can find a radical way to fight it...

I have little experience in drying insects, but it seemed to me that the juicier the insect, the worse it retains color. Probably the drying conditions need to be changed or gutted?

By the way, I remember from the botany course that juicy plants often need to be placed in the herbarium (change newspapers) so that the moisture leaves, then they do not turn brown and do not turn black. They say that the best way to dry a juicy tropical plant is to entrust the herbarium to a Chinese. They are very thorough and efficient people, and you need to change them very often, almost continuously, and this method can probably help with insects.

There is another option. Pour into the resin. I don't remember the name, so I'll look at my work on the jar and write it down. Very cool - any drugs as in glass. Another thing is that you can't pick your wings and spread them out.

to Dzanat

Thank you for the article! Unfortunately, I don't have time to get the ingredients for such a mixture, because the magnificent grasshopper of the color of boiled cancer, because of which I created, in fact, this topic, I died this morning and now it is already on the straightening machine

to Helen

A curious version, this is the first time I've heard this! As for large locusts, recently I caught this summer Egyptian fillies, to my surprise, after complete drying, they acquired their natural color, before that they were almost black!

  to Dzanat

to Helen

A curious version, this is the first time I've heard this! As for large locusts, recently I caught this summer Egyptian fillies, to my surprise, after complete drying, they acquired their natural color, before that they were almost black!

Well, there are many things in the world, friend Horatio... I also had a case where completely discolored ethyl acetate green scoops quite unexpectedly partially returned color... in the humid environment of the desiccator, Why and it would be interesting to understand the chemical essence of the process - not even in the quality of the material, but in scientific curiosity. I'm a biogeographer myself, I can even swim in morphology, and there's nothing to say about biochemistry...

I have little experience in drying insects, but it seemed to me that the juicier the insect, the worse it retains color. Probably the drying conditions need to be changed or gutted?
In insects, color retention depends mainly on the type of coloration. There is an optical color, there is a pigmented one. For optical coloring, the worst time is when the specimen gets fat (this is exactly what happens with the most "juicy" ones, i.e. fresh ones). The drying mode is important here - it is undesirable to forcibly accelerate the process by heating, etc. Pigments are different in durability, mostly insects discolor from prolonged exposure to sunlight - you just need to keep them in a dark place, and put something in the exposure that is not a pity The green pigment in butterflies is an absolutely terrible thing, it is destroyed (?) from anything-from light, from moisture, and from chemicals... And another problem is those insects that opened the topic: green locusts with relatively thin covers and praying mantises. And dragonflies - just darkness. Yes, I almost forgot some beetles-abscesses, ladybugs...

By the way, I remember from the botany course that juicy plants often need to be placed in the herbarium (change newspapers) so that the moisture leaves, then they do not turn brown and do not turn black. They say that the best way to dry a juicy tropical plant is to entrust the herbarium to a Chinese. They are very thorough and efficient people, and you need to change them very often, almost continuously, and this method can probably help with insects.
I have a method of preserving the color of green butterflies "for the Chinese" (it requires a lot of hard work and painstaking, but usually everything works out). If you're interested , I'll describe it.

There is another option. Pour into the resin. I don't remember the name, so I'll look at my work on the jar and write it down. Very cool - any drugs as in glass. Another thing is that you can no longer pick and spread your wings.

Well, this is already a purely decorative option... For science, the most important thing is to have the opportunity to "pick" at any time, by the way, because there is little serious information about color conservation, which is generally not important for a scientific collection. Although coloring is also a defining feature, and its preservation in its original form is a good thing

The 12.59 message was mine. Just in my hurry, I somehow went wrong, and even mixed the text of the quote and comment. Sorry

Sorry again. This I have, apparently something pereglyuchilo: I still don't understand why the message came from the "guest"twice. It seems that everything was correct.

They say that the best way to dry a juicy tropical plant is to entrust the herbarium to a Chinese. They are very thorough and efficient people, and you need to change them very often, almost continuously, and this method can probably help with insects.

The "Chinese" way of preserving the color of butterflies containing green pigment.
The general principle is to prevent the external surface of the insect from coming into contact with chemicals and water.
1. When collecting (night fishing on the screen). The butterfly should be caught not in the stain, but with your hands. This is quite possible without spoiling pollen and hairs on the back. The scoop can (with a certain sleight of hand, which comes with experience) grab the roots of the wings with your fingers from the sides. If the movement is sufficiently precise and sharp, and the butterfly does not slip, then no damage to the covers will occur. Then the scoop should be scored with a shot of ammonia (NB: a drop is small-small - if you overdo it, the butterfly will discolor instantly!). By the way, this method of catching with your hands is also good for obtaining high-quality specimens of large strong butterflies like hawkmoth, which are beaten in the stain themselves, despite the accordion, and trample others. It is more difficult with moth moth - you need to manage to grab them with tweezers by the very root of the front wing (in my experience, it is much more difficult than grabbing a large moth from the sides). Then-squeeze the breast, like a daytime butterfly.
2. When soaking. Butterfly (dry) carefully-carefully pierce the needle of the thinnest syringe and inject a DROP of water. Place in a DRY desiccator. When the water is absorbed - repeat, and so on until soft. The main thing is not to break it while it is completely dry, and do not rush (do not inject too much water), otherwise it will again come to the surface and discolor everything. This method is dreary, but effective. Warning: if the butterfly has become fat or may become fat (very fresh), it is better not to try it - the water will flow out immediately! In this case, it is better to put it in a wet desiccator: if it loses color, then at least evenly, and not in spots.

A very interesting method, and in general everything is interesting, but I have two thoughts came to mind.
1. About water. It seemed to me that the insects that we started with - mantises and grasshoppers, even in life, even without any drying in a humid atmosphere, begin to turn brown, then die. By the way, in another forum about praying mantises at home, the question was asked-do mantises change color depending on the light. And I have a counter question - and from the humidity of the air?
2. I remember in some magazine, I think in Chemistry and Life, or Science and Life, I read that you can deal with fogging windows in winter if you put a jar between the frames and pour sulfuric acid on the bottom. Question - is it possible to dry insects in the" vapor " (atmosphere) of sulfuric acid?

This is my fantasy of something played out in the evening.

1. About water. It seemed to me that the insects that we started with - mantises and grasshoppers, even in life, even without any drying in a humid atmosphere, begin to turn brown, then die.

If they turn brown first and then die , it looks like they are getting sick from waterlogging. Some kind of bacterium or fungus...

2. I remember in some magazine, I think in Chemistry and Life, or Science and Life, I read that you can deal with fogging windows in winter if you put a jar between the frames and pour sulfuric acid on the bottom. Question - is it possible to dry insects in the" vapor " (atmosphere) of sulfuric acid?

So soaking them is a problem, not drying them, and sulfuric acid itself is a very active reagent...

I will support the "Chinese method".
He somehow got to such a soaking of green moth. No one has really come up with another way out yet. The color is preserved quite well.
But you can mord dried moths, but only in a cyanide stain, only keep them for a long time, like other butterflies, they can not be there - cyanide will tan a little. Literally 10-15 minutes and you're done. An interesting observation (although another person told me about this) is that Thetidia smaragdaria moth does not lose its green color after staining.

Yes, green butterflies have different pigment stability for some reason. In addition to Thetidia smaragdaria, I noticed increased pigment resistance in some scoops, such as Asian Isochlora. And in others, the green color disappears even in nature, after heavy fog or drizzle (I noticed a large green moth, which is papilionaria - I don't remember what genus there is now).
It is a pity that biochemists can be interested in such an abstract problem only if they become a full-fledged grant giver

This post was edited by Helene - 07.11.2005 14: 48

It often happens that the fat contained in the tissues of an insect, when drying, appears on the surface, as a result of which the material acquires a very unpresentable "greasy" appearance, and most importantly, important defining features are lost: color, type of pubescence (for example, tufts on the back of many shovels), etc. output) instances. There are also whole groups (for example, Cossiidae butterflies) that are always "fattening".
This is how I deal with this phenomenon in butterflies.
I soak a "greasy" butterfly in a solvent (acetone is quite suitable, only pure, not technical) from a few days to two or three weeks-depending on the size and degree of fat content. The volume of the vessel should be sufficient for the butterfly to float freely in the liquid. If you do not shake the container, the butterfly lies motionless, pollen and hairs will not be anything. As the fat is extracted, the acetone turns yellow. If it becomes intensely yellow, I replace it. Regardless, every two or three days I remove and dry the butterfly to control the process. The fact is that acetone makes the insect more rigid and brittle, so it is also undesirable to overdo it. For the same reason, I try to pre-straighten the butterfly, so as not to suffer later with hard, unyielding fabrics. But if the wings are very greasy and become wet when soaking, then it is better not to take any risks: if you try to spread the pollen, the pollen will be damaged.
In a well-skimmed butterfly, acetone evaporates from the wings literally before your eyes (while a natural pattern without gloss appears), the hairs easily rise with a brush and swell.
The fat-free butterfly should be placed in the desiccator and re-spread, because the wings are always raised and warped. It should be borne in mind that after acetone, the tabs behave a little "wrong" in the desiccator - they are rigid, as mentioned, and the wings can also be soaked with moisture. In this case, there is no need to be afraid of this, they are not sticky. Even fat-free wings can warp in the process of spreading (the tops are raised). Then you need to apply a drop of water under the raised wing and gently press it: the wing will absorb water and become flat again, you can fix it.
Well, then-the butterfly is used for its intended purpose All the defining signs are visible, and the genitals can be separated without problems.

As far as I remember, "pro-acetonization" was recommended as one of the measures to preserve the natural color of dragonflies. For more information, see the well-known popular book by Nienburg and Kozlov.

Well, with dragonflies, everything is not so simple. Personally, I have never been able to preserve the natural color of large brightly colored dragonflies like Aeshna: the maximum is the preservation of spots, but the blue or green color of the spots was still lost. I used both acetone and alcohol (someone advised me about alcohol). However, later I learned that dragonflies mainly focus on wing venation and don't really care about color. Nevertheless, I realized that I would never be a dragonfly: well, I don't like it when the material becomes unrecognizable
And with equal-winged dragonflies-no problems, the color is preserved

P.S. I remembered another detail about washing butterflies. It happens that only the abdomen is fat, and the wings and back are normal. Then it is better to break off the abdomen, wash it and glue it back, than to soak the whole butterfly in acetone. Leaving it as it is is risky: it happens that within six months or a year, the fat spreads further, and it becomes more difficult to correct the defect (without options, soak it completely and re-straighten it).
And another thing: if you wet a butterfly in acetone together with a pin like "Morpho", then the pin dies - the head falls off. So you have to keep that in mind. Either write off the pins at a loss, or use Soviet metal-headed pins (if any)for frequently greasy groups

This post was edited by Helene - 11/28/2005 14: 26

By the way, to preserve the color, you can remove the intestines. I did this operation on dragonflies, it helps quite a bit.

By the way, to preserve the color, you can remove the intestines. I did this operation on dragonflies, it helps quite a lot.

For dragonflies and grasshoppers, this seems to be the only way to preserve their natural appearance. But then on the forum it slipped that a person seems to be gutting butterflies. And this is clearly superfluous: they are perfectly washed, and during the "operation" on their small abdomen, the genitals can easily be damaged (the most important defining sign).

2 guest_n: I don't remember how acetone is better than gasoline. I never used gasoline; some of those who tried both praised acetone, while others praised gasoline. Perhaps it's just a war of blunt ends and pointy ends: both substances have advantages and disadvantages.
I calmly buy acetone in the store as a solvent for paintwork, it is quite clean. But I didn't see refined gasoline there. PS I'm
very afraid to lie, but still I will say: it seems that acetone has better extraction, and insects " tan " less. It seems so.

Yes, I almost forgot some beetles-abscesses, ladybugs...

By the way, I have never noticed this (loss of color) for abscesses and cows. I do everything as usual. For soaking, I use chloroform, try to transfer the material to mattresses as soon as possible (on the same day) (I store it in closed boxes of a suitable size), before mounting, I soak it in a desiccator - the color of these beetles does not change (although, maybe because the boxes with lids, without glass-sunlight does not get there).

By the way, I have never noticed this (loss of color) for abscesses and cows. I do everything as usual. For soaking, I use chloroform, try to transfer the material to mattresses as soon as possible (on the same day) (I store it in closed boxes of a suitable size), before mounting, I soak it in a desiccator - the color of these beetles does not change (although, maybe because the boxes with lids, without glass-sunlight does not get there).

Interesting... I have red abscesses, as well as cows, always fade even in the stain. I guess it's the chloroform: I use ethyl acetate in the route stain.
And getting sunlight into the boxes - I don't know what it is at all. This spoils almost all insects, the only question is-faster or slower. You can't store scientific material like this. Another thing is the museum exposition, and even then in some museums they feel sorry for it, cover it with a curtain when there is no excursion. Well, a souvenir, of course-when they hang a box on the wall for beauty.

At the expense of "grab with your fingers" - I strongly disagree with Helene. Who grabs the material with their fingers?! I always take a dustpan with flat tweezers. The butterfly remains in perfect condition.
If the shovel is sitting quietly, then you can also impale it on a double needle from a sewing machine. You only need to attach a handle to the needle beforehand, you can make it out of an old fountain pen, etc.
If there is no double needle (sold in a sewing store), you can connect two ordinary needles together.
If the scoop rushes, flies, I catch it with a net, immediately grab it right through the net as best I can, just to immobilize it - and through the net I prick it with ammonia. The loss of scales is certainly there, but very, very small-the main thing is to grab it right away and no longer intercept it. It is wiped off not from the accuracy of grasping, but just from interceptions. The same technology applies to hawkmoth and any large butterflies.
There is another way. A shovel, firefly or moth sitting on a hard surface is sharply pressed with the plane of the nail behind the breast to this very surface. After that, the butterfly usually can't move anymore - I take it with tweezers and prick it if necessary. Moths and small butterflies usually do not need this anymore.
And another way-the butterfly is placed in a glass jar (caught with a jar) and in the refrigerator. When it cools down, you can do whatever you want with it.
My scoops, etc. are of almost perfect quality.

This post was edited by okoem-09.01.2006 09: 01

At the expense of "grab with your fingers" - I strongly disagree with Helene. Who grabs the material with their fingers?!

Well, this is someone like... If it's convenient with tweezers, it's fine, but it won't work out any differently with moth flies. And it's most convenient for me to just use my fingers. They themselves agree that the scoops will be wiped off from being intercepted - so that no matter what you grab, even if the net is a net, if it doesn't fidget, it won't wipe itself off. But it also depends on the accuracy: if you grab it not by the roots of the wings, but closer to the head , it will turn out.

Yes, green butterflies have different pigment stability for some reason. In addition to Thetidia smaragdaria, I noticed increased pigment resistance in some scoops, such as Asian Isochlora. And in others, the green color disappears even in nature, after heavy fog or drizzle (I noticed a large green moth, which is papilionaria - I don't remember what genus there is now).
It is a pity that biochemists can be interested in such an abstract problem only if they become a full-fledged grant giver

It's just that in some species, the green color is due to optical effects, and in others-to pigments. Many pigments that do not belong to the melanin group or are purely organic are generally poorly resistant and eventually break down as a result of oxidation.

In fact, the essence of preserving the pigmented green or blue color comes down to replacing these pigments with similar-colored inorganic salts during pretreatment.

First of all, this applies to pigments that are concentrated in the fat body, as in some dragonflies, erect wings or praying mantises. Here they are destroyed primarily by fat oxidation. Therefore, one of the stages of preparation is mandatory degreasing of fresh insects (pure gasoline, acetone, xylene), followed by chemical treatment, for example, sulema (I do not advise experimenting - it is poisonous!).

Pigments localized in the cuticle are better preserved. Here, only degreasing is often enough.

I decided to put it in a separate topic - because the question is specific and burning.
I mainly deal with butterflies, but sometimes I also take other insects, including beetles. Or when the find is interesting (with subsequent transfer to specialists), or purely amateur, in the collection-if the creature just made a big impression.
So, I caught a very beautiful bright red barbel in Dagestan - according to the second version, out of pure aesthetics. And since estheticism-I want it to be in the best possible form. And it's faded on the mattress. Not quite, but quite noticeable: it was scarlet - turned dark red. I know that ladybugs, abscesses and leaf beetles lose their red color inevitably and irreversibly, but it seems that this barbel is not the case (the covers are hard, the color is matte).
Question for beetles: is it possible to restore the brightness of the color? Maybe it's just zazhirilsya (actually fresh), and it can be washed in acetone? But will I do any harm (suddenly the color is pigmented, and the pigment dissolves in acetone)?

I wonder what kind of sawyere? Probably some purpuricenus. This year I was also very lucky with this podium. In general, over time, my red barbels either darkened or faded a little - they turned orange. I didn't really come up with anything, but, interestingly, the darkened P. budensis retained, like her, an irridizing color, or something - that is, when light falls at an angle, they look like fresh ones. I observed the same effect on the images.

Yeah, one of them. Purpuricenus budensis:



To be honest, I don't remember the exact distribution of black and red (i.e., I don't remember 100% which pronotum). But it looks like this, especially since the view is Dagestani.

So be it, tonight I will dip my dark budensis in ethyl acetate. Exclusively for you and science

It seems to me that the "tarnishing" of the color is not from fattening, but from drying out the hemolymph, which in any case gives some kind of color effect. Red barbels fade almost everything, even if they are not well-fed. Fattened ones generally turn brown and become "shiny" like waxed paper.

It seems to me that the "tarnishing" of the color is not from fattening, but from drying out the hemolymph

I can't believe it. The skin is very dense - the hemolymph should not show through.

I now bathe in acetone two horses (oh, and a long process - for a week not washed!). Initially, they were slightly glossy, the white pattern is almost invisible, but when viewed from an acute angle, the pattern appeared with normal brightness. That is, the way Nilson described it. Now the drawing is clearly visible, but not quite as bright as in a live one - you still need to degrease it. What does the beetle "shell" mean-the butterfly would have been ready long ago!

This post was edited by Helene - 19.09.2006 16: 01

The hemolymph may not be transparent, but I don't think anyone will deny the presence of fluid even in the hard integuments. And it also gives "brightness", if, of course, the color is not optical. And the red pigment is quite unstable and burns out in the light... Think of butterflies, especially nocturnal ones... As for racehorses, they often grow fat, especially young ones, and it is almost impossible to restore the brightness of the living one, the beetle will still be dimmer.

I rinsed budensis in acetate - nothing special happened, I already wiped it later,and took it away with a blotter. It seems to have become slightly noticeably lighter, but the color loss compared to a live beetle is very noticeable. Maybe, indeed, the matter is in the hemolymph or some features of the fit of the abdomen and wings to the hips? By the way, some barbels were more fortunate - they almost did not change color.

I rinsed budensis in acetate - nothing special happened, I already wiped it later,and took it away with a blotter. It seems to have become slightly noticeably lighter, but the color loss compared to a live beetle is very noticeable. Maybe, indeed, the matter is in the hemolymph or some features of the fit of the abdomen and wings to the hips? By the way, some barbels were more fortunate - they almost did not change color.

M. B. should I have bathed him in acetone right away, like a dragonfly?

I rinsed budensis in acetate - nothing special happened, I already wiped it later,and took it away with a blotter. It seems to have become slightly noticeably lighter, but the color loss compared to a live beetle is very noticeable. Maybe, indeed, the matter is in the hemolymph or some features of the fit of the abdomen and wings to the hips? By the way, some barbels were more fortunate - they almost did not change color.

Actually, just rinsing is not enough: beetles are degreased for a long time, at least a week. If there are no red streaks left on the blotter, I think I'll try soaking it. The beetle is definitely fat: in the desiccator, drops of fat appeared in the joints of its whiskers! Apparently, just hatched...

Elizar: It's definitely not a matter of fading: the beetle was extracted in July of this year, it was lying on a mattress. By the way, if you keep red butterflies in the dark, the color persists for a very long time (I have tapeworms that are 15-20 years old, the color is like a living one).

PS: and the beetle is not budensis: the pronotum is still black.

PS: and the beetle is not budensis: the pronotum is still black.

Unfortunately, I don't have a key to this task, so it's difficult to determine exactly. However, my budensis, caught in one day in one place, are very different in the coloring of the pronotum (spots are large, small and without spots at all) and size. That Zinovsky copy you showed me is a very red one indeed.

Unfortunately, I don't have a key to this task, so it's difficult to determine exactly. However, my budensis, caught in one day in one place, are very different in the coloring of the pronotum (spots are large, small and without spots at all) and size. That Zinovsky copy you showed me is a very red one indeed.

So, after all, it is even less similar to the others there (and the area is not the same), and the Zinovskaya base is not an amateur page for you
If you manage to restore the bug , I'll let you know.

So, after all, it is even less similar to the others there (and the area is not the same), and the Zinovskaya base is not an amateur page for you
If you manage to restore the bug , I'll let you know.

"ZIN" ovsky beetle belongs to me - and it is quite budensis.

Yes, much has been said. The other day I dried dragonflies with acetone - and I am satisfied ; the color of many specimens has been preserved. Although there are still some changes : the bright green-blue color of the male blue rocker Aeschna cyanea still faded a little , but in general the color remained the same.