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Marine insects

Community and Forum → Other questions. Insects topics → Marine insects

Juglans, 11.09.2007 6:26

In the 90's, at one Olympic Games, there was a question: why don't insects live in the sea? Insects and the sea are incompatible, but why is not clear. After all, there were insectlike creatures that lived in the Devonian seas (Devonohexapodus)! There are also chironomids, whose larvae develop in desalinated sea lagoons, and sea skimmers. Storm surges are home to legtails, bedbugs, beetles, and even earwigs. There are lice that live on pinnipeds. Ticks were able to master the sea a second time (and, apparently, repeatedly), to great depths, but insects did not.

By the way, the "correct" answers were as follows:
Great competition from crustaceans
The inability to breathe through the trachea and switch to a different way of breathing (although there are many insects in fresh water)
Some features of the excretory organs
confused.gif

Comments

11.09.2007 8:05, amara

In my (non-specialist) opinion, insects also live (are attached to) fresh water only in the coastal zone, that is, where there is a solid substrate for fixing (resting, laying eggs?), namely plants, branches, bottom stones, etc.In the open spaces of deep seas, this is almost not the case.
On the other hand, I know how harmful salt (with a conc. above 0.14 M) is to mosquito larvae, even at this conc. they die quickly, apparently (and this is only an assumption) due to a violation of osmoregulatory processes.
But there can be many responses.

11.09.2007 13:21, Dmitrii Musolin

The question is interesting but difficult... So many exceptions! In inland waters, there are also those who live at a depth of several meters (at least swim there) and practically do not need to swim. There are those experiencing very high salinity, and alkalinity, and temperatures below 40C, and freezing in the ice in winter... All the people I had in mind above - only among bedbugs... Among the other detachments, there are probably even more striking examples.

Sea skaters - on the surface only. They can't stay under water for long.

Food, of course, in the sea is not much, but is it so critical? although after all, too - not just food is needed, but suitable ... That is, the entire food chain should be...

I would vote for breathing...

Is there as much dissolved oxygen in salt water as in fresh water? And taking into account the temperature? Before wintering, animals switch from breathing through an air bubble to plastron breathing - this is probably not easy...

11.09.2007 13:38, amara

The question is interesting but difficult... So many exceptions! In inland waters, there are also those who live at a depth of several meters (at least swim there) and practically do not need to swim.

that is, Are you saying that they don't need to be fixed for anything at least for a while, and they can swim like fish without popping up like a float ?
Thank you, I want to know more

This post was edited by amara - 09/11/2007 13: 40

11.09.2007 15:21, le lapin

to amara: the question is not why insects are not found in the open sea, because in coastal waters, including calm areas, they are almost absent, something prevents them from spreading there.

However, I immediately have questions that may help me better understand the reason.
1) What is the diversity of sea mites and what biotopes have they developed?
2) What adaptations allow them to live in the sea?

As for breathing, no one forces these insects to breathe oxygen dissolved in water. After all, you can float to the surface from time to time.

11.09.2007 16:57, amara

You are right le lapin, but also, the sea surface is often choppy and will not allow beetles (and non-beetles) to freeze on the surface and change oxygen. So it remains to buy as crustacean gills?
And yet, and this is a joke, twice in the same (correct if a mistake) water can not step (meaning that their great-great-ancestors came out of the sea)

This post was edited by amara - 09/11/2007 17: 31

11.09.2007 17:57, le lapin

The" surface of the sea " in some areas is no more restless than the surface of a pond or river backwater.
Again, think of the "glorious sea, sacred Baikal", or Ladoga. After all, there is also surf there, but water insects are found there. Of course, they are also looking for quieter places there.

11.09.2007 19:07, amara

Again, le lapin agrees with you, but what do you say about Haliplus immaculatus, which, according to Zaitsev (1953), is found in brackish puddles on the sea coast, but not in the sea itself (i.e., as if salt alone does not count, but the size of the water space may be)?

11.09.2007 19:40, le lapin

In littoral baths, as a rule, the water is also fresher. After all, it is not by chance that "brackish" is written, this is a term denoting a certain range of salinity.
But I don't see the point in discussing why a particular species doesn't live in the sea.

11.09.2007 19:55, Chromocenter

To be honest, I would answer the question like this - insects do not live in the sea, because their blood contains a lot of magnesium and very little sodium, then Russia is very far in composition from sea water, unlike ours, so if they breathed like fish, they would face the problem of osmoregulation more strongly than the first ones - that is, their blood composition is farther from sea water than from fresh water. or even if you don't cry, water still penetrates the body through the covers. This is the reason why there are so few "marine" insects.
Likes: 4

11.09.2007 20:08, amara

yes, that's just arrived, sea water is denser than fresh water and requires more leg muscle work to hold and guide the body with a trapped air bubble under water (if of course we leave the hypothetical appearance of gills alone)

12.09.2007 8:14, amara

and yet, many insects are tied to plants, and higher plants are just as reluctant to go to sea as insect

12.09.2007 8:53, PVOzerski

I don't like the idea of breathing. The Aphelocheirus bug is not enough, you can also recall a variety of larvae with tracheal gills - dragonflies, mayflies, freckles, caddis flies... What about the osmoregulation stuff? First thought: maybe the Malpighian vessels are not the most suitable type of excretory organs for living in a hyperosmotic environment?
BTW, what about the entomofauna of salty (primarily salty) lakes - does anyone know anything?
Likes: 1

12.09.2007 9:03, amara

that's right, larvae is a completely different deal

12.09.2007 9:56, amara

I looked up about aphylochiruses, this family (nesk. dozens of species) for the ability to exchange oxygen from water (as. by the way, others spend the winter under the ice) pays by living in running, oxygen-rich water.
I wonder if sea water dissolves less oxygen than fresh water?

This post was edited by amara - 12.09.2007 09: 58

12.09.2007 13:34, mikee

12.09.2007 14:22, le lapin

Seawater dissolves less oxygen, that's for sure. But there is still a complex temperature dependence. At zero, the solubility difference is three times.

12.09.2007 14:36, Juglans

Gentlemen, You are clearly underestimating evolution. For example, almost all terrestrial pulmonate mollusks are very different in salt composition and in the nature of their metabolism from marine ones, and they cannot live in the seas. but! Their ancestors were marine, and there are still several groups of marine pulmonate mollusks. Or arachnids: of course, they can't live in the sea, but still several groups of ticks have mastered the seas, rearranging their metabolism in a different environment.
Higher plants in the sea? "why aren't mangroves plants?" There are insects on mangoes (although not so many), and among the roots there is a rich life almost without insects.

12.09.2007 16:30, mikee

Seawater dissolves less oxygen, that's for sure. But there is still a complex temperature dependence. At zero, the solubility difference is three times.

Yes, I was wrong. Here is an example: http://sukhno.kubsu.ru/index.files/softwar....files/o2_4.htm

12.09.2007 16:34, Juglans

However, the sea is characterized by greater oxygen production.
By the way, has anyone ever watched a floating beetle in a can of seawater? It is difficult for him to "dive" there - the water density is higher.

13.09.2007 12:08, amara

Here, I learned for myself (Kuznetsov 1950) that the salt composition of the insect hemolymph allows it not to freeze to -0.87. We know that in fresh water, the temperature is even higher under the ice. I wonder if it can be lower in Morskaya?

13.09.2007 12:14, amara

Yes, I also found a site where they deal with this issue http://ww2.unk.edu/acad/biology/hoback/mar...sects/home.html (up to and including use for teaching students)

Their main hypotheses:

1. The ocean is too salty for insects to tolerate.
2. The ocean is too deep for the larvae to complete their life-cycle.
3. The ocean water contains too little oxygen for insect development.
4. Flowering plants which insects co-evolved with on land have seldom made it back to the ocean.
5. Nutrients needed by insects are limited in the ocean.
6. Insects face competition from crustaceans that have had a 200 million year head start.

in general, they are similar to those that we have jointly proposed here.

13.09.2007 12:31, BRC

Again, remember the "glorious sea, sacred Baikal",


Insects are not found in Lake Baikal.
Why? - the same question is of interest to many researchers. confused.gif
I don't know about Ladoga.
Likes: 1

13.09.2007 13:48, amara

13.09.2007 13:55, le lapin

Yes, I also found a site where they deal with this issue http://ww2.unk.edu/acad/biology/hoback/mar...sects/home.html (up to and including use for teaching students)
Thank you for the link.
As a result, they conclude that the most important factor is competition.


Insects are not found in Lake Baikal.
Why? - the same question is of interest to many researchers. confused.gif
I don't know about Ladoga.
Well, that's not true. no.gif Before writing this, I specifically asked on the Internet, because I myself was not on Lake Baikal.
The Institute of Biology at ISU even has a collection of aquatic insect larvae. tongue.gif
In addition, as far as I understand, water skaters and water lovers live in the bays of Lake Baikal.

This post was edited by le_lapin - 13.09.2007 13: 56

13.09.2007 17:12, amara

But perhaps the fact that more than 250 species of amphipods (Amphipoda) from Lake Baikal alone were known (Birshtein, 1940) suggests something about competition from crustaceans?

This post was edited by amara - 13.09.2007 17: 15
Likes: 1

13.09.2007 17:18, le lapin

The Institute of Biology at ISU even has a collection of aquatic insect larvae.
I forgot to specify: Baikal aquatic insects.

13.09.2007 19:29, stierlyz

I would like to note that insects have mastered both salty and even salty reservoirs. A moth lives in the hyper-potash Kuyalnitsky estuary, and I collected some of our swimmers in puddles with a salinity higher than sea salt.

14.09.2007 5:59, BRC

Your truth, I wrote it incorrectly. Apologize.
In Lake Baikal, there are quite a large number of larval stages of caddis flies and chironomids, as well as two (?) species of freckles. That's for sure.
I was referring to the imaginal stages of amphibiotic insects. wink.gif

This post was edited by BRC-14.09.2007 06: 01
Likes: 1

14.09.2007 6:07, BRC

As for the bays, you need to explain. In some shallow and isolated bays (called Sores), you can find fauna typical of shallow lakes in the Palearctic. There are plavuntsy and bedbugs and dragonfly larvae, etc. lake inhabitants.
Only when talking about Lake Baikal, soras are usually contrasted with it, as having "non-Baikal" conditions that are not typical for an open lake, and their fauna is attributed to the typical general Siberian fauna. There are no endemics there (or practically none), and those that are there came from Lake Baikal.
Open bays (not of the sorov type) have all the characteristics characteristic of Lake Baikal and endemism of fauna and the absence of many typical lake groups.

This post was edited by BRC-14.09.2007 06: 16
Likes: 2

14.09.2007 6:09, BRC

The Institute of Biology at ISU even has a collection of aquatic insect larvae.


Yes, I'm just from there. But, see the explanation above. cool.gif

14.09.2007 6:11, BRC

For those who are interested, see Zoological excursions in the Baikal region (mainly on insects, etc. b/n) http://zooex.baikal.ru/

14.09.2007 8:29, amara

For those who are interested, see Zoological excursions in the Baikal region (mainly on insects, etc. b/n) http://zooex.baikal.ru/


Interesting site, thank you. Beetles, for example, can be viewed by individual families. Question: if it says, for example, "The family of staphylins (Staphylinidae).... in the Baikal region, about 700 are known", then are there any specific lists, are they available?

14.09.2007 8:40, BRC

I don't know write Shilenkov VG (our head of the department) he is an entomologist and should be aware, I am a hydrobiologist I don't deal with insects.
Likes: 1

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