Russian man jailed in Madagascar for trying to export rare butterfly

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11.02.2008 9:54, Alexandr Rusinov

At the expense of collecting in the national park: not the thief who stole, but the one who got caught

. Whether ground beetle populations can be undermined by soil traps is a difficult question, and it would be good to conduct research here, rather than demonstrate subjective emotions. According to my data, traps catch beetles from a certain small area ( for vinegar-somewhere with a radius of 50 cm. around the trap), if you do not change the position of the trap, then after a while the catchability drops sharply, when the trap is moved, the catches are restored to the same level, that is, all the beetles do not run together to drink vinegar, and they run, apparently, not along a random trajectory, but along certain routes and if their route does not coincide with the zone actions of the trap will not bring the catcher happiness

. Again, the question is-how long does the catch last, did the caught specimens lay eggs, etc., etc. Although it seems to me that with a certain effort, the catcher will be able to reduce the ground beetle population, but an idiot on a tractor or a pyromaniac with matches is much more dangerous for them.
As for the person arrested in Madagascar, my opinion is that you should not forget that you are a guest and you should respect the laws of the country where you came. And the fact that the captured insects are garden pests is hard for me to believe, apparently this is another journalistic move, and why would he go so far for the garden fauna, because it is about the same all over Africa.

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11.02.2008 15:34, Victor Titov

Laws are, if you will, peculiar rules of the game. If one of the participants of the game does not comply with them, the game will not work. And a person who does not want to comply with the rules will at best be expelled from the circle of players (and depending on the mood of the company, they can also use force so as not to interfere with law-abiding citizens). And this is absolutely correct. As long as the law is in effect, it must be observed regardless of whether you personally like it or not. This is the only way a civilized person should appear. Also, about our entomologist in Madagascar. Well, he's wrong, anyway. They don't go into someone else's monastery with their own charter. If you want to take a risk and don't care about the restrictions that apply in a foreign country , please respond. Ignorance of the law does not exempt you from liability. You have to pay for the risk. As a human being, I sympathize with him. But as a colleague, I do not understand and I condemn his act. He was treated fairly. Called gruzdem-get in the back (that is, in the camera). Both him and others have science for the future.

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11.02.2008 16:58, Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg

Well, if you act according to the rules of Vladimir Efremenko, approved, apparently, by you, then this is no longer an expedition, but an offense (at least). And I do not think that any sane and serious people are eager to be on the same expedition with a person who deliberately goes to violate the laws (even if in a foreign country). I definitely support Bad Den's opinion.

As I have already written, I do not know Yefremenko. But I can't answer the question of whether I approve, I'm not inclined to judge (don't judge... ) without knowing the situation. It is hardly possible to get an idea of real events from minute-long reports on TV.

Agree that there is a difference:
1. Illegal collection of animals (in my opinion, lizards were also mentioned) THAT HAVE COMMERCIAL VALUE for COMMERCIAL PURPOSES in the national park.
2. The collector illegally collected insects for his collection/scientific purposes (not for commercial purposes).
In real life, there can be a whole range of transitions from the first to the second.

The 1st option is undoubtedly poaching and there is nothing to talk about. And in the case of the second option, I can't blame such a person...

All the fervor of my comments was not aimed at protecting "where I want, I catch there... and don't care about all the rules and laws", and the fact that in the conditions of uncertainty of our status (in relation to Russia), any collector, regardless of the status (professional/amateur), can get into a very unpleasant situation.

PS. About: "In the national Park caught? Caught it. Is there an article for this? There is. What difference does it make who counts what? In accordance with the letter of the Malgasy laws, he was punished." It's very much like Pavlik Morozov.
"uncle Ranger, Uncle Ranger, see that guy in the green jacket, they still have a tent on the edge of the campsite. So, he only wears a camera for show, and under his jacket he has a folding net! And look in his backpack, too.

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11.02.2008 23:39, Salix

To Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg & Bad Den:
I think you're talking about the same thing.

Yes, unfortunately, the lack of clear rules and laws (or their extreme confusion) regulating the collection and transportation of insects often forces you to collect and transport insects with a known risk. This applies primarily to Russia, but not only. There is a risk not only of being caught, but also of being caught and not being able to get away with it, even if there are papers. Even official paperwork doesn't always help, and if it does, it can take a hell of a long time to check - who cares? The plane won't be waiting. This is one side of the coin. This kind of risk and unwillingness to show up because of the dangers associated with the unpredictability of bureaucrats and officials-yes, it is justified, partly inevitable, and in case of failure, such a person should only be sympathetic. But, I apologize, if a person goes for commercial purposes, without taking care of ksivami, grossly and deliberately violates the law, actually poaching - what kind of sympathy can we talk about?

This post was edited by Salix - 02/11/2008 23: 44

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13.02.2008 16:14, Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg

To Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg & Bad Den:
I think you're talking about the same thing.

Yes, unfortunately, the lack of clear rules and laws (or their extreme confusion) regulating the collection and transportation of insects often forces you to collect and transport insects with a known risk. This applies primarily to Russia, but not only. There is a risk not only of being caught, but also of being caught and not being able to get away with it, even if there are papers. Even official paperwork doesn't always help, and if it does, it can take a hell of a long time to check - who cares? The plane won't be waiting. This is one side of the coin. This kind of risk and unwillingness to show up because of the dangers associated with the unpredictability of bureaucrats and officials-yes, it is justified, partly inevitable, and in case of failure, such a person should only be sympathetic. But, I apologize, if a person goes for commercial purposes, without taking care of ksivami, grossly and deliberately violates the law, actually poaching - what kind of sympathy can we talk about?

I totally agree.

13.02.2008 22:36, Coleopter

And again for the old corn. And here's a question for you: what did you not like about this situation : the fact that Vladimir caught a rare butterfly in general or that he collected including garden pests on the territory prohibited for this purpose? All these laws to protect against catching insects are complete NONSENSE!!! Let's first create conditions for the normal development of Red book species (limit deforestation, drainage of swamps, creation of hayfields), and not yap on those who still managed to catch the desired object for their personal collection. And not stupidly exchange "material". I do not understand those who apply the phrase "material"to collected insects (as well as other objects of the animal and plant world). Personally, for me, each collected beetle is a part of the invested soul, and even if it is often (quite often) necessary to discard copies. And let each of us think about it.

14.02.2008 10:07, Alexandr Rusinov

Well, of course, before executing the law, we need to check whether we like it, otherwise, well, this law, it's delusional. And the prohibition of fishing in the nat.in the park - even more nonsense, there are also more necessary insects and it is easier to catch them. And in a foreign country, the law does not need to be observed at all, they will still not be able to come up with anything good, and they cannot understand the riddle of the Russian soul who wants to add to the collection. And those who say that it is necessary to comply with the laws - they are out of envy. Did I get the idea correctly? Oh, by the way, what does it have to do with replenishing your personal collection, in my opinion it was about commercial trapping?

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14.02.2008 13:02, Victor Titov

And again for the old corn. And here's a question for you: what did you not like about this situation : the fact that Vladimir caught a rare butterfly in general or that he collected including garden pests on the territory prohibited for this purpose? All these laws to protect against catching insects are complete NONSENSE!!!
Let's first create conditions for the normal development of Red book species (limit deforestation, drainage of swamps, creation of hayfields), and not yap on those who still managed to catch the desired object for their personal collection. And not stupidly exchange "material". I do not understand those who apply the phrase "material"to collected insects (as well as other objects of the animal and plant world). Personally, for me, each collected beetle is a part of the invested soul, and even if it is often (quite often) necessary to discard copies. And let each of us think about it.

Let's say that all the legislation (and not only environmental protection) is complete nonsense. I'm not going to discuss this topic. But what does it change? Dura lex sed lex. A civilized person observes the laws regardless of his personal attitude to them. And if it has the opportunity to do so (such people, I will make a reservation, are a minority), it tries to influence the legislative bodies by legal (again!) measures in order to change the law. Personally, I didn't like this collector-merchant's nonchalant attitude to the laws of a foreign country. Once he has crossed the legal ban (even if, according to many, in a small way), it means that he is able to do it again and again (and not only in the environmental sphere). But it says: "Thou shalt not steal!"
And more. "...let's not push those who still managed to catch the desired object... " What's the tone? Let's choose expressions. Here, no one looks at , but simply expresses their opinion.

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14.02.2008 18:43, Salix

And not stupidly exchange "material". I do not understand those who apply the phrase "material"to collected insects. Personally, for me, each collected beetle is a part of the invested soul, and even if it is often (quite often) necessary to discard copies. And let each of us think about it.

Think about what? The fact that each beetle from your personal collection is not "material", but part of your soul? This is your exclusive problem, which is what every bug in your collection is. There are far more interesting things to do than think about your beetles, and what they are to you in terms of the poetic and spiritual aspects of your nevertheless pointless and aimless collecting.

This post was edited by Salix - 02/14/2008 22: 34

15.02.2008 15:16, Konstantin Shorenko

It is no secret that the export of insects in certain countries provides for criminal liability. And here, of course, it is necessary to distinguish between commercial and scientific entomology. Often this facet is illusory and even many well-known scientists work on it. Some friends like to come to the museum and steal a couple of boxes, and then sell them at a higher price to a private collection or over the hill. It's all there. If we talk about the scale of commercial entomology - so they are huge, and this really needs to be fought. And you can take out material for scientific purposes from hot countries. You just need to submit a document certified by their institute or university that the material was obtained for scientific purposes. Well, if you are caught collecting birdwings in the reserve, there is no getting out of it. And the embassy won't help.

18.02.2008 11:56, Трофим

I didn't sing to the hot one. However, hello.
1) I want to congratulate the recently arrived Mikhail Shestopalov (although it's probably better not to mention his last name, otherwise it's not enough......) from Madagascar and wish everyone, including myself, to be just as successful in catching entomofauna of interest somewhere over the hill, or in the post-Soviet space, otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten off so easily in Turkmenistan.
2) You need to know the laws and take them into account, although I don't know if I don't have the opportunity to catch insects somewhere other than in the national park (well, suppose I came as a tourist for an hour or 2 and that's all ) I could have stopped myself from fishing, oh, I don't know, I don't know. It is impossible not to agree that unbridled human activity brings much more harm than a separate activity of an entomologist, here I agree with Coleopter and Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg. But when I read the IchMan report, I must admit that I was impressed by its consistency. And indeed, if those pathetic small protected areas that really attract tourists are not also protected, and the nature of Madagascar is not just for you, what are the exterminated moya birds and epiornis (it may not be appropriate to compare, but the nature is unique), then it will be very bad.
3) To discuss whether you are right or wrong, the main thing is not to light up once again. And it's good if you can learn from someone's mistakes. But people with a piece of paper really have advantages, it's good when you have a hobby and a profession combined in one place – this is the most beautiful thing. Here I am, for example, and strive for this. The question of whether a person involved in the entomological field can have a personal collection was also discussed here. I think it can. It's just a pity that the surrounding colleagues in the "shop" can not always understand this. I've experienced firsthand what it's like. When doing your work wholeheartedly in the entomological museum (you can say for nothing) ANRM received a scolding for allegedly dragging / dragging copies. butterflies and something else from the museum (they didn't say what exactly was missing, either they didn't find it, or they rearranged it and couldn't find it, but in general the accusations were very, very vague). During the time that I work in this museum, I didn't even look like I was coveted, I didn't take more than one pin without asking (especially since it says don't steal – one of the commandments, I simply won't respect myself after this, even if people didn't know anything, and there was such an opportunity). Today I continue to work in the museum, there are many interesting specimens. and if at first there was a desire to exchange, which I talked about with the supervisor, then he said that this does not work in the museum, only to replenish and bring (then I was still a schoolboy). Today I treat my work simply as a job, nothing more, moreover, I would be glad if there were even cameras in every corner. I am such a person that I don't need someone else's, but I won't give my hard work and then earned money to anyone to be eaten by leather eaters (what I encountered in the museum, let it be better at home in safety). Although I have also heard that a researcher does not have the right to keep a personal collection at home, but as already mentioned, these days this is not a rule, but a mutual agreement.

Yes, there is a type of people who are fanatical collectors. These people are driven, apparently, by some disease (or not quite a disease - not the point is important) akin to kleptomania. Such people go to any limits and go beyond any limits. Although outwardly they can look very different - representative respected comrades and all that, some are employees of solid institutions.

I wonder if the collection is held during an official expedition or during business hours - is it possible to collect or select material for a personal collection? Surely there must be at least formal restrictions. In this case, if you want, you can pin down many employees who have private collections. Copies are usually labelled. It is enough to prove that such specimens were caught during working hours or during official expeditions-trips paid for by the organization or with grants. Almost unlikely. But theoretically, if you specifically quarrel with the employer, you can imagine. Usually, the presence of a private collection, if not advertised, is not particularly hidden. That is, who has what material stored at home is more or less known. We don't live in a vacuum. Of course, no one will go to the homes of employees with a search. But to purposefully run over someone specific in the event of a conflict or other need - I can very much imagine.

But I was lucky enough to add as much as 3 or 4 copies to the collection. ropalocer on an official trip. It was like this. The supervisor needed material (statistical data), I asked, and then what about the material. You can throw them away in return. Arion

is also there, of course, I don't even want to throw out the eye of an untidy one, it's a pity even to throw out banals, and since I processed the material, after which I provided a report (in fact, for the sake of which the sample was made), the material remained with me. It was the same with dragonflies, but I didn't process the material, I only made samples of 100 copies. (dragonflies on moymu the same already in the trash). I reported to the scientific supervisor about rare species, (yes, in fact, everything was in the report) if necessary, I will provide it in several copies. for the museum's collection. Although if it was a trip to China, for example, or somewhere else, this would have been fine. Although I think it would be possible to agree here, the most important thing is openness in relations between people and that the person is like a person. But if you caught one of the rarest specimens. just one yes on an official trip, it seems that you caught it, and you didn't steal from anyone, that's right, the question is complicated, so you will have to switch to another group of insects, as they say to Caesar Caesarean, away from temptation. Here are the cases.
PS regarding the laws, it seems to me that the main differences that arise when you need to either accuse or justify a person who has committed such a crime as fishing in the national park, this is our consciousness well, it is not arranged in the Western manner to protect nature, and at the same time to pawn each other, which in most Western countries makes very wide distribution, where you can't run with a net for a long time. I just remembered one incident about our emigrant. They came to America, and once went out for a weekend, and took fishing rods to catch fish, caught either crucian carp, or carp (they don't have fish there at all, so there was, I don't want to take it, a catch. A Native American comes up, smiles all over his face, and asks:
"You have a license"
He jokes back:"No"
In 15 minutes, the police are right there.
Murder is a sin, theft is a sin, etc. And when entomologists gathered who want to replenish their collections in a legal way-exchange, fishing in nature, whether it's a national park. most of us do not look at it as something criminal, few would refuse to catch insects in the reserve. But to change consciousness or not……
The most important thing is to know the norm, and it's also not bad to know where, when and how much to catch, and to be quieter than water and lower than grass + pieces of paper, more pieces of paper with seals.

They might come in handy.

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18.02.2008 17:03, Coleopter

And again for the old corn. And here's a question for you: what did you not like about this situation : the fact that Vladimir caught a rare butterfly in general or that he collected including garden pests on the territory prohibited for this purpose? All these laws to protect against catching insects are complete NONSENSE!!! Let's first create conditions for the normal development of Red book species (limit deforestation, drainage of swamps, creation of hayfields), and not yap on those who still managed to catch the desired object for their personal collection. And not stupidly exchange "material". I do not understand those who apply the phrase "material"to collected insects (as well as other objects of the animal and plant world). Personally, for me, each collected beetle is a part of the invested soul, and even if it is often (quite often) necessary to discard copies. And let each of us think about it.

Dear colleagues, I want to apologize for the rudeness and boorish tone.

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18.02.2008 23:54, Konstantin Shorenko

Gentlemen, let's agree that the laws must be respected. And even more so the laws of the country in which you are guests. If it says forbidden, it means forbidden. The truth is an old truth - if you really want to, then you can

. Well, to do this, you need to make an effort, at least make a fuss with the documentation! I personally don't care who was caught (or why) in Madagascar. It is much more insulting for our science when rare collections are stolen and sold.

Although in this topic, more important issues are raised by footnotes - nature protection should be based on what principles, from whom and how nature should be protected, and where the line of prohibition is. That's what's important. Now everyone is saying-let's preserve this or that natural complex. The public, scientists are fighting, documents are being dragged through. They stretched it out. Uhhh, it's gone. The resolution was adopted, we had a drink and a snack, and there was one more reserve. Then we created a staff and found a director. And then gradually the reserve turns into a closed joint-stock company, where scientists are allowed on a piece of paper, and then only in a certain form. And God forbid the form will be different! They'll send you back for a duplicate. Meanwhile, commercialization is growing and smelling there. And for rich comrades, almost royal hunts are arranged. I'm not saying it's ubiquitous, but it happens. And it's a shame.

This post was edited by Dormidont - 02/18/2008 23: 59

19.02.2008 15:39, Alexandr Rusinov

There is no need to confuse nature reserves and national parks. Certain economic activities are allowed in the national park, primarily tourism, but "royal hunts" and other safaris are also possible. In addition, certain biotechnical measures should be carried out in national parks, such as regulating the number of individual species, feeding, organizing watering holes, etc. In nature reserves, however, economic activity should be stopped altogether, human impact should be minimized and limited to scientific research on the territory. Unfortunately, there are very, very few nature reserves in our country that meet these requirements. Commerce penetrates everywhere, everyone wants money, hence the paid recreation areas and organization of hunts and much more. At the same time, they usually turn a blind eye to the damage caused to nature...

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