Russian man jailed in Madagascar for trying to export rare butterfly

According to my information, it was also about the captured lemurs. So it's not the butterflies ' fault at all.

Cool uncle turned around in a foreign country (if this is of course true). I can't call it anything other than blatant poaching!

Common commercial poaching. They covered the pancake with "public opinion" about the tortured scientist. I dragged myself to the customs office to assess the damage and identify the tortured animals of the same haulers. It's a pity that they got off so easily(

Everyone, released the poachers, will be home today.

That's right, they released them. EVERYTHING!!! the topic is closed.

I'll add it again.... One person called and outlined the situation. He knows him somehow.... And Yefremenko threw this one else... I will not give specific names of those to whom they are due, for the material or something else (neither out of respect, nor myself, just in case, I do not mean anything). But he also gave us a little lift. Now under the hood of the FSB and can start to hand over those who sell insects.

Got caught, really, on reptiles, - he was rude to the huntsman-like you're a nigger and I'm a white man and fuck you, refused a bribe, that had no choice but to hand it over. Environmental organizations associated with Madagascar in connection with this cake tightened the rules, and now from the Congo (I don't know the truth of the DRC or NRK) to take out as if nothing can be.

Dude Efremenko vindictive, vain, I was very much asked not to even voice this, because you never know what.... Only one of his friends lawyer from Karsnoyarsk began to organize it to get out, the rest he already annoyed. And due to ignorance of the situation NN Drozdov shot a story about him, where he appears as a hero.... Sorry...

Yeah.... This topic is still muddy. Completely confused. Now it is not at all clear who is to blame and who is right. Although in the place of Efremenko can be any of us.... Not clear.....

Yeah.... This topic is still muddy. Completely confused. Now it is not at all clear who is to blame and who is right. Although in the place of Efremenko can be any of us.... Not clear.....  

They're NOT poachers. I (and not only I, but also some other highly respected forum participants) have known one of the heroes of this story personally for more than 10 years. This is a very serious coleopterologist, respected by serious scientists (Obydov, K. Makarov, for example). They did not catch any "rarest Red Book beans". It is worth talking about widespread corruption in Madagascar (in pm and among foresters) and in the prosecutor's office. The story there is long and not for public publicity, but I don't like it when hypocrisy turns into the format of hitting very good people (who, in particular, help science with their fees). And yes, it could be anyone who catches beetles and butterflies outside the hotel..

This post was edited by Frantic - 13.04.2008 21: 44

Frantic, so it seems that they have already found out about butterflies - not the butterflies, they were planted for snakes and lemurs?

What snakes, what lemurs???? Gentlemen, our colleagues were "imprisoned" for two reasons: the refusal to pay a bribe to the huntsman on the spot and because of the translator, who did not want to lose clients and translated ours from French obviously INCORRECTLY (this was later found out with the help of our consulate staff). They were detained with a couple of crabs (which locals use for bait during fishing) and a gecko that run around in garbage dumps there.. And they are exported and caught by the same French without any problems.

What snakes, what lemurs???? Gentlemen, our colleagues were "imprisoned" for two reasons: refusal to pay a bribe to the huntsman on the spot

And why should the gamekeeper have been bribed?

And why should the gamekeeper have been bribed?

For crabs and geckos. Butterflies and beetles don't bother there at all. Catch as much as you want. But of course, you still need to take it out in your luggage, not in hand luggage. By the way, local hunters are happy to help collectors..

PS: I can't disclose the details. But I ask you to forget about the Red Book beans, lemurs and snakes. None of this happened.

And they are exported and caught by the same French without any problems.

It seems that politics also took place there.

It seems that politics also took place there.

No, I don't think so.. It's just that the French speak French, which is common in Madagascar - it's easier for them to negotiate And the translator, a local aboriginal, specifically did not translate the information correctly, which is why our hunters got into trouble with the prison.. It should have ended much sooner. By the way, the behavior of our excellent TV channels is a separate fable. On the other hand, it is quite consistent with its modern flavor..

This post was edited by Frantic - 14.04.2008 23: 54

Yes, you can immediately see that these are poachers who think only of their own profit. I don't understand why some people on the forum defend them so strongly. And the fact that each of us could have been in their place is a populist statement!Entomologists only need insects, and not everything in a row, like these "heroes". And the attitude to insects in many countries is calm, they will not be planted for them. And, in general, it's time to cover up the topic, it turns out that we gossip like grandmothers in the bazaar.

This post was edited by Ekos - 04/16/2008 01: 54

Yes, you can immediately see that these are poachers who think only of their own profit. I don't understand why some people on the forum defend them so strongly. And the fact that each of us could have been in their place is a populist statement!Entomologists only need insects, and not everything in a row, like these "heroes". And the attitude to insects in many countries is calm, they will not be planted for them. And, in general, it's time to cover up the topic, it turns out that we gossip like grandmothers in the bazaar.

One more time. These people are not poachers. They did not strangle lemurs and did not intend to export them to Russia. In their place could be any biologist (collector) who does not know French. And, unlike some people, I "don't spread gossip" - I have first-hand information. If you consider people who selflessly share fees with Obydov, Makarov and other scientists to be"poachers" - this is, of course, your business..

Perhaps someone will disagree with me. But I believe that in such a situation, which has already been discussed from all sides, not any biologist (collector) can get into, but only those who go to "gather" in a foreign country without first familiarizing themselves with the environmental legislation of this state, with the customs (in this part) of the local population, their attitude to the visiting "paganels". You can't rely on the Russian "maybe" and expect that since " the attitude towards insects in many countries is calm, they will not plant them for them." Whether we like it or not, the rules of another country must be respected, even if we don't understand them and don't like them. It is better not to go into someone else's monastery with your own charter, this is fraught with consequences, and the case of V. Efremenko confirms this.

By the way, I read on some website that Efremenko is going to Madagascar again in December of this year...

All this is a high syllable ("customs of the population", etc.). The reality is that everything and everything is brought from Madagascar. I DO NOT know Yefremenko personally, but I have known his partner for more than 10 years. This is a person who, let it not sound grandiloquent, went on serious expeditions before most of the participants of this forum went to school.In other words, no one relied on chance there. But to give a bribe or not is a matter for everyone. And more. Not all of our hunters are decent and good people. But at least one participant in this story is a very good and respected person. Let those who are clever behind the monitor and denounce on the forum (straight Stalinism of some kind - "They are Poachers!"), will do for science at least 10% of what he did... And more. Real poachers aren't people with nets. They sit in the Duma and other high authorities. They sell the forest, disfigure the steppes, pollute the rivers, import all sorts of used nuclear shit into Russia, demolish relict boxwood groves because of the Olympics... Pay attention to them.

This post was edited by Frantic - 04/16/2008 18: 50

All this is a high syllable ("customs of the population", etc.).
The reality is that everything and everything is brought from Madagascar. But to give a bribe or not is a matter for everyone.
Real poachers aren't people with nets. They sit in the Duma and other high authorities. They sell the forest, disfigure the steppes, pollute the rivers, import all sorts of used nuclear shit into Russia, demolish relict boxwood groves because of the Olympics... Pay attention to them.

1) I beg to differ. If we assume that giving a bribe or not is everyone's business, then we can agree to pearls like "to steal or not is everyone's business", "to kill or not is everyone's business", etc. etc. - The Criminal Code is quite a large book. Do not forget: article 291 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation, part 1-giving a bribe to an official personally or through an intermediary (the maximum penalty is imprisonment for up to 3 years), part 2-giving a bribe to an official for committing deliberately illegal actions (inaction) - provides for the maximum penalty in the form of imprisonment for a period of up to up to 8 years old. Giving a bribe (and not just receiving it) is a crime. Anyone who does not understand this (by the way, ignorance of the law does not exempt from responsibility) or deliberately ignores it is just a banal criminal. Let anyone accuse me of "high style" - I do not get smart at the monitor, but directly talk about my personal life principles-I have never paid a bribe in my life and I will not give it (and I have already lived quite a lot - my fifth decade is running out).
2) Yes, it sounds pathetic - about people with nets, about criminals (poachers) in high offices, cutting down relict groves, and so on... Isn't that a high syllable? They, these poachers in high offices, have come to us from Mars? No, of course not! "We all came out of the people" is about them. If a person does not hold a high position (and therefore does not have the opportunity to "steal cars") if he considers it acceptable for himself to drag along the little things that are available to him, to give a bribe to achieve the desired result, etc., then, suddenly becoming a big boss, he will probably not change his principles, but will "use to the fullest" for himself, his beloved, his newly appeared broad powers. Let those who do not have a real opportunity to remove this trash (sorry, moderator !) from the power structures, start at least small - they will not cross the law themselves and, if possible, will warn their neighbors against this. It will be of more use than to justify their less significant and fateful violations of the law with slogans about "criminals in power".
3) Hmm, from Madagascar they carry everything and everything... And what, do they do all this absolutely legally? Again a question of conscience. In my opinion, respect is due to those who are unlucky, since it is forbidden.

1) I beg to differ. If we assume that giving a bribe or not is everyone's business, then we can agree to pearls like "to steal or not is everyone's business", "to kill or not is everyone's business", etc. etc. - The Criminal Code is quite a large book. Do not forget: article 291 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation, part 1-giving a bribe to an official personally or through an intermediary (the maximum penalty is imprisonment for up to 3 years), part 2-giving a bribe to an official for committing deliberately illegal actions (inaction) - provides for the maximum penalty in the form of imprisonment for a period of up to up to 8 years old. Giving a bribe (and not just receiving it) is a crime. Anyone who does not understand this (by the way, ignorance of the law does not exempt from responsibility) or deliberately ignores it is just a banal criminal. Let anyone accuse me of "high style" - I do not get smart at the monitor, but directly talk about my personal life principles-I have never paid a bribe in my life and I will not give it (and I have already lived quite a lot - my fifth decade is running out).
2) Yes, it sounds pathetic - about people with nets, about criminals (poachers) in high offices, cutting down relict groves, and so on... Isn't that a high syllable? They, these poachers in high offices, have come to us from Mars? No, of course not! "We all came out of the people" is about them. If a person does not hold a high position (and therefore does not have the opportunity to "steal cars") if he considers it acceptable for himself to drag along the little things that are available to him, to give a bribe to achieve the desired result, etc., then, suddenly becoming a big boss, he will probably not change his principles, but will "use to the fullest" for himself, his beloved, his newly appeared broad powers. Let those who do not have a real opportunity to remove this trash (sorry, moderator !) from the power structures, start at least small - they will not cross the law themselves and, if possible, will warn their neighbors against this. It will be of more use than to justify their less significant and fateful violations of the law with slogans about "criminals in power".
3) Hmm, from Madagascar they carry everything and everything... And what, do they do all this absolutely legally? Again a question of conscience. In my opinion, respect is due to those who are unlucky, since it is forbidden.

1) I didn't know that the Code of the Russian Federation is in force in Madagascar, even the local prosecutor's office offered to pay a bribe - they didn't need the whole story either. But, because of the translator. all this became clear much later. I often visit exotic countries for work, and I can assure you that absolutely everything is bought and sold. in Asia, this is generally the norm of things. So. During an excursion to the royal Palace in Phnom Penh (Cambodia), a friend of mine bought a "royal" watch belt in broad daylight.

2) No entomologist is capable of causing such harm as the authorities and other economic entities. It is one thing to catch 1-10 specimens, another thing is to demolish the biotope where this species lives. I don't even leave garbage in the forest behind me, but this doesn't prevent our beautiful indigenous population, for example, from completely polluting the clearing where Karabus Nitens lived with garbage (with a hill). Or hand over part of the reserve for the construction of luxury cottages.. What's it got to do with you or me? Unfortunately, nothing depends on me and my family in this country. Aren't recent elections enough for you to make sure of this?; (

3) What my (and several other forum participants) friend took out from Madagascar-background species of beetles and butterflies. I will repeat for the third time: no lemurs were affected. At the same time, a significant proportion of beetles were distributed free of charge to museums, serious collections and the Moscow State University Department. Of course, the person, like hundreds of other entomologists from Europe, did not take out the material legally (without paperwork, which would entail additional time and additional expenses). bribes). Is this poaching? Or is poaching something that indigenous people do to their island, destroying forests, turning the island into a desert? Soon, even what our compatriots have brought now may become history.. Alas! And not because of the collectors. Let it at least remain in museums for posterity..

Let it at least remain in museums for posterity..

Standard phrase of standard insect pests that select a population year after year on the principle of "I take everyone, every single copy"

Let it at least remain in museums for posterity..

Standard phrase of standard insect killers that select a population year after year on the principle of "I take every single specimen"

Yeah. Apparently, the collections of the Zoomuseum and other scientific institutions are replenished by the beetles themselves. They draw lots for where to go.

PS: as I see it, Roman Khryapin has not improved at all in the culture of communication. He still doesn't realize that lying isn't pretty (or can he give me an example of the population I exterminated?). Of which, however, I had no doubt.

But I see that Sergey Dementyev traditionally descends to banal assaults and personality transitions, although, I think, I didn't specifically accuse him of anything. I just gave the most frequently heard argument from some people.

This post was edited by omar - 17.04.2008 08: 53

But I see that Sergey Dementyev traditionally descends to banal assaults and personality transitions, although, I think, I didn't specifically accuse him of anything. I just gave the most frequently heard argument from some people. But this is understandable, with his complexes and unbalanced psyche

Stop, guys, this is too much! The moderator will ban everyone, regardless of who started it first, and will have 1000% rights. Even if someone got personal (we will think, accidentally, in the heat of the moment), the other should show wisdom and not respond to the provocation. Don't you agree, Roman?"

1) I didn't know that the Code of the Russian Federation is in force in Madagascar, even the local prosecutor's office offered to pay a bribe - they didn't need the whole story either. But, because of the translator. all this became clear much later. I often visit exotic countries for work, and I can assure you that absolutely everything is bought and sold. in Asia, this is generally the norm of things. So. During an excursion to the royal Palace in Phnom Penh (Cambodia), a friend of mine bought a "royal" watch belt in broad daylight.

2) No entomologist is capable of causing such harm as the authorities and other economic entities. It is one thing to catch 1-10 specimens, another thing is to demolish the biotope where this species lives. I don't even leave garbage in the forest behind me, but this doesn't prevent our beautiful indigenous population, for example, from completely polluting the clearing where Karabus Nitens lived with garbage (with a hill). Or hand over part of the reserve for the construction of luxury cottages.. What's it got to do with you or me? Unfortunately, nothing depends on me and my family in this country. Aren't recent elections enough for you to make sure of this?; (

3) Of course, the person, like hundreds of other entomologists from Europe, did not take out the material legally (without registration of documents, which would entail additional time and additional expenses). bribes). Is this poaching?

1) The Criminal Code of the Russian Federation does not apply in Madagascar. But a bribe is also a bribe in Africa. And is criminally punishable in any country. Another question is how their own law is actually enforced - this is already the area of law enforcement practice. But I am much closer to the position of a person who does not commit a crime out of his own conviction, and not out of fear of being punished. Arguments on the topic "everything is for sale and everything is bought" are just an excuse for their own not always plausible actions. It's more convenient to say that I'm just like everyone else ("to live with wolves is to howl like a wolf").

2) Yes, no entomologist is capable of causing such harm as the authorities and other economic entities. But to have a full moral right to stigmatize these authorities, you need to be completely sure that your own actions are not harmful. Yes, catching 1-10 instances is usually not much damage to the population. But after all, among collectors-collectors (especially those working on a commercial basis), there are also those who, without hesitation, will catch hundreds of copies if possible, even in some local point. An example with the indigenous population polluting the clearing, in the subject! But it is precisely from people who calmly shit in the forest, in the field, on the river, etc., that figures are put forward who then make decisions about cutting relict groves and allocating the territory of nature reserves for the construction of dachas. To fight, as far as possible, it is necessary to deal with pests of any scale.
I won't go into politics. Wrong place. Although I certainly have my own opinion.

3) It is not always poaching to take material out of the country illegally. But always breaking the law. I would like to emphasize once again that this is unacceptable for me personally. And by the way, if a person gives bribes for processing export documents, this does not make their actions legal.

The most important thing is that beetles don't care who catches them - an entomologist with a "crust" or a so-called "poacher". And when laws are written, no one asks them (Zhukov) either. Therefore, when catching 10, 100, 1000 specimens, a sane person will be guided primarily by their ethical principles, as well as an analysis of how the law invented by my uncle can complicate his further existence and whether it is worth contacting it at all. To do this, a person has acc.an organ, and in many cases quite functional. And to act on the level of "said it is impossible-it is impossible in any way and unambiguously" - this is similar to the reflexes inherent in much less developed beings.

The most important thing is that beetles don't care who catches them - an entomologist with a "crust" or a so-called "poacher". And when laws are written, no one asks them (Zhukov) either. Therefore, when catching 10, 100, 1000 specimens, a sane person will be guided primarily by their ethical principles, as well as an analysis of how the law invented by my uncle can complicate his further existence and whether it is worth contacting it at all. To do this, a person has acc.an organ, and in many cases quite functional. And to act on the level of "said it is impossible-it is impossible in any way and unambiguously" - this is similar to the reflexes inherent in much less developed beings.

Two hands "for" that you need to be guided primarily by your ethical principles!. That's basically what I mean. Consciously, out of conviction, and not out of fear of retribution, not to commit actions that are recognized as illegal, and even more so, criminal - this just means to comply with ethical standards.
But to comply with legal prohibitions (that is, "if you say you can't, then you can't do it in any way and unequivocally") - this has nothing to do with reflexes. On the contrary, to do so is a sign of law - abiding, inherent in any civilized society. This is the foundation of any true democracy. You can disagree with the law, you can try to achieve its abolition by using the appropriate public and state institutions, but as long as the law is in force, it must be implemented. Otherwise-a mess and anarchy. Many of our country's troubles are caused by a lack of understanding or deliberate disregard by the majority of citizens (both "ordinary" and powerful) of this principle.

But to comply with legal prohibitions (that is, "if you say you can't, then you can't do it in any way and unequivocally") - this has nothing to do with reflexes. On the contrary, to do so is a sign of law - abiding, inherent in any civilized society. This is the foundation of any true democracy.

We must not forget about the second cornerstone of real democracy. This very law-abiding attitude must first be developed (through the inevitability of punishment for an offense) to the level of reflexes and self-support (when citizens write denunciations against each other about each other's offenses, and each denunciation is thoroughly considered and measures are taken on it).

Two hands "for" that you need to be guided primarily by your ethical principles!. That's basically what I mean. Consciously, out of conviction, and not out of fear of retribution, not to commit actions that are recognized as illegal, and even more so, criminal - this just means to comply with ethical standards.
But to comply with legal prohibitions (that is, "if you say you can't, then you can't do it in any way and unequivocally") - this has nothing to do with reflexes. On the contrary, to do so is a sign of law - abiding, inherent in any civilized society. This is the foundation of any true democracy. You can disagree with the law, you can try to achieve its abolition by using the appropriate public and state institutions, but as long as the law is in force, it must be implemented. Otherwise-a mess and anarchy. Many of our country's troubles are caused by a lack of understanding or deliberate disregard by the majority of citizens (both "ordinary" and powerful) of this principle.

I would still like to emphasize that there are always prohibitions, no matter what they are: legislative, religious, based on customs, traditions, etc. These very "power-holders" don't ask the demos much, the very one who seems to be supposed to lead them, who seems to have chosen them himself. But nevertheless, first of all there is COMMON SENSE, and everyone chooses for themselves. If you stupidly follow everything that is written on the fence, then this is not democracy at all, this is a direct path to a slave-bestial state.

I'll probably disappoint you, Svansson, but what you read on fences is not usually the law of a civilized country. Usually it is not a law at all. Of course, this is probably bad, since legislation is published in small editions, is sold expensively in specialized stores, and often not everyone can understand what is written, but only a trained lawyer, for example. So, most likely, you will not be able to reach the state described by you, you can not be afraid of this.

I would still like to emphasize that there are always prohibitions, no matter what they are: legislative, religious, based on customs, traditions, etc. These very "power-holders" don't ask the demos much, the very one who seems to be supposed to lead them, who seems to have chosen them himself. But nevertheless, first of all there is COMMON SENSE, and everyone chooses for themselves. If you stupidly follow everything that is written on the fence, then this is not democracy at all, this is a direct path to a slave-bestial state.

Er, dear Swansson, if I didn't see that this is your post, I would think that someone is arbitrarily quoting Dostoevsky (Raskolnikov: "I'm a trembling creature, or do I have the right?"). I don't dare compete with Fyodor Mikhailovich, so I won't try to convince you - reread "Crime and Punishment", perhaps you will realize that you are wrong. And about your message to the inscriptions on the fence, omar said everything - do not add, do not subtract.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 17.04.2008 19: 48

I'll probably disappoint you, Svansson, but what you read on fences is not usually the law of a civilized country. Usually it is not a law at all. Of course, this is probably bad, since legislation is published in small editions, is sold expensively in specialized stores, and often not everyone can understand what is written, but only a trained lawyer, for example. So, most likely, you will not be able to reach the state described by you, you can not be afraid of this.

Oh Pavlik, Pavlik... Judging by such shameless labeling and cheap sarcasm, you still got to it.

Dmytrych, I think it's more stupid to argue on this topic. It's like a conversation between a blind person and a deaf person. You carefully ignore my non-Chinese hints about those who really ruin nature, and shift everything to high motives + denounce some ephemeral entomologists-murderers (who is this? Sinyaev? Gorodinsky? Not funny. The damage caused even by them is negligible compared to what happens around you every day). I've never had the "catch more" mania, but I'm also not interested in the other extreme. To each - his own. Only I don't plan to go to Madagascar yet, and I need some material from there. So far, such correct collectors as you do not carry it, we have to be content with collecting those whom you call "poachers" (I can imagine what you would say about Przhevalsky!:)). Those who risk their health, money and support science in practice. On the subject of democracy, I agree with Svanssan. And do not think that all Europeans are a flock of sheep, which interprets democracy as 100% compliance with all the rules.. I visit Europe several times a year, and the people there are normal.. Not a zombie. Just do not wed@t in their porches and do not belong to the kneeling herd that the sun-like leadership of the Russian Federation will produce for a happy future (this, of course, is not a stone in your garden).

Sincerely,
Sergey.

And the fact that each of us could have been in their place is a populist statement!

If, dear Ekos, you are caught, God forbid, then you will feel for yourself how much this"populist statement"
Poachers-it sounds, of course, beautiful. We should also add terrorists, murderers and sadists (insectosadists) Gee-gee. So if I catch a stag beetle, I'm also a poacher. And if Cetonia aurata is located on the territory of Moscow (it is listed in the Red Book of Moscow), then I am again a POACHER and I need to be deported for 101 km.????
It is necessary to carefully read the Red Book, which states that the protection of rare insects is entirely based on the protection of not a SINGLE SPECIMEN, but on the development of measures to protect the BIOTOPE in which this species lives.
In conclusion, I want to say that the topic should be closed: because no one will prove anything to anyone, and mutual irritation is VERY possible. Here it will soon come to hand-to-hand combat (Frantic vs. Omar). Bolivar, close the topic, please!!!!!!!!!! From myself, I will add: the topic is closed. That's enough already!

Here I would like to find out what labels and on whom some Pavlik hung? You also need to clarify who has reached what?

Dmytrych, I think it's more stupid to argue on this topic. It's like a conversation between a blind person and a deaf person. You carefully ignore my non-Chinese hints about those who really ruin nature, and shift everything to high motives + denounce some ephemeral entomologists-murderers (who is this? Sinyaev? Gorodinsky? Not funny. The damage caused even by them is negligible compared to what happens around you every day). I've never had the "catch more" mania, but I'm also not interested in the other extreme. To each - his own. Only I don't plan to go to Madagascar yet, and I need some material from there. So far, such correct collectors as you do not carry it, we have to be content with collecting those whom you call "poachers" (I can imagine what you would say about Przhevalsky!:)). Those who risk their health, money and support science in practice. On the subject of democracy, I agree with Svanssan. And do not think that all Europeans are a flock of sheep, which interprets democracy as 100% compliance with all the rules.. I visit Europe several times a year, and the people there are normal.. Not a zombie. Just do not wed@t in their porches and do not belong to the kneeling herd that the sun-like leadership of the Russian Federation will produce for a happy future (this, of course, is not a stone in your garden).

Sincerely,
Sergey.

I agree, there is no point in arguing further. All the participants in the discussion are quite established, self-sufficient people with a stable life position, and they are unlikely to change it on such a fundamental issue. I would just like to clarify. Perhaps I was not accurate enough in my presentation of my thoughts, so you misunderstood me.
1) I do not ignore your hints "about those who really destroy nature", especially since your statements can't be called hints - you quite specifically pointed to representatives of the authorities, officials who make managerial decisions. You are knocking on an open door in this matter - these "masters of life" cause me no less disgust than you do. I just expressed my opinion that an overzealous collector also brings very specific harm, which, although it does not go to any comparison with the consequences of the destruction of biotopes, is also noticeable. To do as these collectors do, or not - to a greater extent, a moral question, everyone chooses for themselves. For me personally, this is unacceptable, and I personally condemn it. That's all I wanted to say.
2) The example with Przhevalsky is unsuccessful. I have nothing but deep respect for him. This is a different time, a completely different situation, and it is incorrect to put Przhevalsky on the same level as Efremenko. But the actions of Schliemann, who "quietly" took out the treasures of Troy, are immoral. Again, in my personal opinion.
3) More than enough has already been said about democracy, 100% compliance with prohibitions, etc. You and Svanssan agree, I don't. Positions clarified. I will only add that a person's compliance with the laws of the country is not a sign of his belonging to the "flock of sheep". Freedom is a conscious necessity. Not the right to do as you please.
4) I don't want to get involved in politics. But I have no admiration for the "sun-like leadership of the Russian Federation". If only because he is aware of what is happening in Sochi (this refers to the issue of the destruction of biotopes).
Sincerely, Victor.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 18.04.2008 11: 22

And if Cetonia aurata is located on the territory of Moscow (it is listed in the Red Book of Moscow), then I am again a POACHER and I need to be deported for 101 km.????

Calm down, Coleopter, no one will attract you for the absurd Cetonia aurata listed in the Red Book of Moscow. According to Article 8.35 of the Administrative Code of the Russian Federation, administrative responsibility comes only for the destruction (including collection) of species of animals and plants listed in the Red Book of the Russian Federation, regional books are "not rolled" here. At the same time, responsibility does not come for any collection of the Red Book type, but only for its implementation without proper permission, or in violation of the established procedure (I will not repeat these permissions and procedures).

Calm down, Coleopter, no one will attract you for the absurd Cetonia aurata listed in the Red Book of Moscow. According to Article 8.35 of the Administrative Code of the Russian Federation, administrative responsibility comes only for the destruction (including collection) of species of animals and plants listed in the Red Book of the Russian Federation, regional books are "not rolled" here. At the same time, responsibility does not come for any collection of the Red Book type, but only for its implementation without proper permission, or in violation of the established procedure (I will not repeat these permissions and procedures).

Here is a moral incident: So if I first caught some rare Red Book beautiful species, I must release it according to the law? But I am more than 99% sure that it is unlikely that anyone present on the forum will do exactly that.
Although in principle, before collecting, I did exactly that. Moral satisfaction (the excitement of the hunter) was delivered precisely by capture. After that, I let go of the beetle or butterfly unharmed.
In order not to go too far into exaggerating ethics, I will model a hypothetical situation: In your region, let's assume a large oak barbel was caught. What's next?..

This post was edited by rpanin - 18.04.2008 12: 59

Here is a moral incident: So if I first caught some rare Red Book beautiful species, I must release it according to the law? But I am more than 99% sure that it is unlikely that anyone present on the forum will do exactly that.
Although in principle, before collecting, I did exactly that. Moral satisfaction (the excitement of the hunter) was delivered precisely by capture. After that, I let go of the beetle or butterfly unharmed.
In order not to go too far into exaggerating ethics, I will model a hypothetical situation: In your region, let's assume a large oak barbel was caught. What's next?..

You've caught me being inconsistent, Ruslan! But every rule has exceptions, only then is it a rule . Of course, I won't let go of the big oak tree, but even if I can get a "giant" series from one point, I won't use it. By the way, this is exactly what I do: when collecting, I take a maximum of 3-5 copies each (in the rarest cases, no more than 10). It has already been discussed here that we have big problems with the Red Books. As for the Red Book of Moscow, this is generally absurd, as for any city, even if it is a megacity. So you can walk to the senile Red Books of microdistricts, streets, neighborhoods, courtyards... I won't go to the reserve without permission: I won't say that I've been to many of them, but, for example, in our Darwin one, you can negotiate with the reserve staff, they will understand and they won't make a scandal because of a dozen or two beetles-people are quite professionally literate. I will repeat once again: when collecting insects, in my opinion, moderation and reasonableness of "appetites"are necessary.

What can I say here? I fully share Dmitrich's position. You'll probably laugh, but I don't have the Crimean ground beetle in my collection, for example. And not because I have never met these beetles, but simply this is just the case when the destruction of a large, strong, and beautiful beetle listed in the Red Book is nothing more than a banal murder for the sake of collecting. Because the value of specimens of this species for science from the Crimea is close to zero. I would not say that they are, of course, threatened with extermination, but their number has certainly decreased. I saw a copper-red beetle once, and I didn't take it either. When I recently told Dimtrii Obydov about this, he said that it was just very interesting, because he personally had never seen this species with such a color in collections. And he had seen the collections of more than one museum. If, of course, I found an oak barbel in the Moscow region, I would take it. But if somewhere in the Crimea, for example, too, then also no. It's probably very funny to write such things on this forum, and I will only be judged here.