Grown insects in your collection

There is also a culture that has scientific value, if the butterflies are bred from eggs obtained from the first breeding of this species, then F1 is written, similarly to F2, F3, etc.
This cannot happen indefinitely as a result of imbrinding, that is, many eggs turn out to be unfertilized (closely related crossing), so the culture should be updated with a copy from nature.
If, of course, an ex. without a label, it naturally has no scientific value.
The main thing is the label and what it says.

This post was edited by AntSkr - 15.01.2009 14: 47

That's not what I'm talking about here. We are talking about types grown for sale (sale, exchange, donation...) for collectors. Growing for non-commercial purposes is somewhat different.

This post was edited by Cerega - 15.01.2009 15: 01

Many people buy souvenirs after all and don't even know the name of the species and may not even understand butterflies at all, they don't care, especially since souvenir boxes are sold unopened and without labels.

Entomologist who needs scientific value - such copies. unlikely to buy it...

That's right, and even butterflies, in "salutes", they say to look good... People eat...

What does this have to do with fireworks and the collection?

That's right, and even butterflies, in "salutes", they say to look good... People eat...

People give it away with a bang (from their own experience, they gave it away). Because, in addition to high science, there is also beauty in the world! And there are a lot more people than snobbish entomologists...

Yeah, I got it, I guess I'm pretty bad at beauty. But let's go back to our collection. I got it once, from one of the Goliath merchants, but it doesn't have an intricate RSA label on it, and there's no footnotes about it in the price list... Well, I don't want the incubator beetles to get into my box. I'm such a snob, and I understand and accept the advice that you can go and catch whatever you want, but I can't implement it yet.

Buying grown insects, you thereby save natural populations from their depletion And also the question of price is also not the last: Expensive species become cheaper significantly (ornithopters, for example) when they begin to grow on farms... and become much more accessible

Then it's better to buy good photos, but only from nature.

what is the status of an artificially grown insect ?.. what does it have to do with the type it is called?

Does a species cease to be a species in culture? Or do morphological and other signs change dramatically?

This post was edited by Insect Expert - 15.01.2009 16: 04

No, of course not, but the chicken is also a bird.

Some species (not necessarily rare-for example, insect parasites) are bred in insectariums, and then released into the wild. What is their status? IMHO the question was posed incorrectly initially.

Finally a cool theme... but if we are to be consistent to the end, it turns out that" people "is often more honest about collecting dry corpses than the so-called"scientists". For those who are in the tank, I will explain - to describe new species, subspecies, reduce them to synonyms and vice versa in the absence of clear criteria and definitions of the same concept of "species", this is just a show-off intel-onanism... current pliz not Nada mumble about Meyer's "definition", because there are chips in it that do not fit even once. some people of course grit that this is like "an exception that confirms the rule", but we're not talking about feeble-minded zhezhs here...

Unfortunately, from the photos - quite a sound idea...

This post was edited by Babochnik - 15.01.2009 17: 02

Hello dear forumchane!
I've been following the development of events on your forum for quite some time, read a lot, and learned something interesting for myself. In general, I am glad that you are here!

Regarding this topic, as far as I understand, the question is about the status of the specimen in the collection, since many collectors are not entomologists by profession, and many do not have a biological education. For many, it's just a hobby, a break from the daily routine, and I'm no exception. And such people do not set the goal of a deep study of biology, morphology, and the variability of the species depending on the points and heights of n. o. m., etc.
I am guided by the principle that all the species of the former USSR, not to mention the tropics,
can not be collected in a "short" life, and therefore, I put only A+ and very rarely A-in the collection. This may not be correct, but the collection should be pleasing to the eye!
In addition, when you feed 100 caterpillars collected in nature and get 99 parasites, the only copy obtained is perfect, and more valuable than any purchased or caught 99 times! And with some types of moths, artificial feeding or culture is the only way to get the desired specimen in the collection, the main point, as Mr. AntSkr wrote, is not to forget the label. If the collection point is known, the species and subspecies of the insect from this point are known, and the conditions that are as close to natural as possible are met, then at least 10 cycles of processing, rejuvenating the culture from the same point, neither the size nor the smallest details of color will change. If you are wrong, please correct it!

PS a child can also catch and kill, but not everyone who has been collecting for years can feed (catch), spread out and systematize the collection so that it is valuable for science and for themselves! This is what you need to emphasize, without getting dirty with small things unnecessarily.

This post was edited by Jarik - 16.01.2009 01: 02

I think there is no clear answer to this question..

I can only tell you how I like it.
I absolutely do not perceive the material without labels. But I make exceptions for many species - for example, for farm-bred butterflies placed in the collection. They are also species, they are beautiful and fit as specimens. for the collection. I don't care where they are found-glaivnoe know the Philippines or Yu. America (and not always). Because I have never been to those places and I have no idea what kind of nature and life there is in general, I don't know what species are found there - for me they are just replenishment and decoration of the collection. Therefore, for purely aesthetic purposes.
The rest, everything that was caught in the Palearctic, I demand with a label. Such material without a label is simply frustrating.

Because I have never been to those places and I have no idea what kind of nature and life there is in general, I don't know what species are found there - for me they are just replenishment and decoration of the collection.

For the same reasons, I don't do tropics at all.
I completely agree with you that the question is not unambiguous. What I wrote above is not an imposition of my own concepts "as it should be", but purely my conviction.
To put a" broiler " copy in the collection or not, to give a label or do without it, and other issues of maintaining the collection, everyone has the right to decide for himself. The main thing is to set the right priorities: science or aesthetics, or both.

both
for yourself, you want to have a complete collection, for example, thickheads. And on the wall, I want to please the eye with a large box of morpho The first priority, the second-if I get caught, I will not refuse )

Continuing my thoughts, I want to add that breeding is a great way to look at possible aberrations, to breed a gynandromorph, to study the color variability when low or high temperatures affect the pupa. If such a specimen is provided with a good label (under what conditions it was obtained, at what temperatures, what it was fed with, etc.), then it seems to me that it is no less valuable for science than a typical one caught in nature.
People engaged in breeding said that one black specimen is bred for n thousand swallowtails. In nature, I did not come across such a thing. It is believed that in natural conditions, one pair of butterflies gives a maximum of two pairs in the next generation, the rest goes to feed other insects and birds or dies from diseases. The probability of survival of an unusual specimen is very small. If not by breeding, then what other way can science learn about this, and other features of each individual species!?

"The further research is from theory, the closer it is to the Nobel Prize" - D. I. Mendeleev

This post was edited by Jarik - 16.01.2009 12: 34

Guys, this is about commercial cultivation. Whether such material is the same as collected in nature for you. And the fact that it is possible to complement this is another matter. And for biological pest control, this is not at all the same.

My colleague breeds red book insects in a home (laboratory) insectarium to maintain their natural population, releases them back into nature, and someone catches them (for sale, in exchange, in a collection for himself) and no one even knows their status?

God, and why do we think we're so powerful?..

Guys, this is about commercial cultivation. Whether such material is the same as collected in nature for you.

If this is a silkworm from a silk factory, which for two thousand years in the culture has forgotten how to fly, morphological characteristics have changed, and I will not be told from which point the original pair was taken for breeding, then I will not have it in the collection!!!!!
I can only guess what a painstaking and time - consuming task it is to maintain culture... no vacation, no days off, wives swear: "you spend the whole day with them, so go to bed with them!!!"! Only on enthusiasm and at its own expense, it will not last long, and if it at least pays off or even makes a profit, then the enthusiasm will be added many times over.
If the conditions of the label, content and rejuvenation of the culture are met, then yes, I will put a copy in my collection without any remorse!

This post was edited by Jarik - 17.01.2009 12: 16

I mean, did I get it right? Here lives in my region quite a rare animal and many would like to fuck it, but in my wilderness do not go. I have several options - to climb into the glasses and catch five or ten sets per season , which is clearly not enough for everyone. The second is to catch the female, or collect the larvae (well, the quality is perfect) and grow up, then there is a label and so on. Or master the method of growing a popular species and successfully drive it to the needs of the suffering until the market is saturated and the price does not fall so much that the sheepskin is not worth dressing (you can even write the label and it will be almost true). And all three options are equivalent for you?

This post was edited by Cerega - 17.01.2009 12: 47

And what does "the label will be almost true" mean?

The first two options are completely equivalent for me!

Yes, and it can take years to master the breeding technique of a rare, local species.

It's almost true, a gathering point. In general, it is clear that this is like a basin about the third.
They can, of course, take years , but what's the point? And don't talk about saving the species... If the habitat is destroyed, then all this is monkey T. labor, and let's face it, it's all about money or its equivalent.

Cerega, if the collection point is obviously wrong, then, of course, these specimens are not of scientific value. The issue here is one of trust.
If you give me the right point to collect the source material, and zealously rejuvenate the culture only from this point, then I will be your first buyer!
And in a market or transition economy, any work must be paid for, and you will not be forced to participate in breeding Subbotniks!

But no, the point is obviously correct, it's just that generations of insects have not been growing there for a long time. But in a market economy, this is just a hobby, and I learned to earn money from something else. Your right to consider a grown specimen as a full-fledged representative of its own species. It's my right not to think so. And it's good that we have freedom of choice, isn't it? The whole point is a true label and compliance to the supplier. And what suits someone let them decide for themselves

Here I agree with you! Everyone has the right to decide for themselves! When I received the first breeding specimen for the collection, I also thought about its status, gave myself arguments "for" and "against" and realized that the Ussuri tigers in the German zoo give offspring to Ussuri tiger cubs, and not German domestic kittens, and put the "dead head" in the collection.

But to put next to it an instance caught from those very places is not averse...

By the way, about the so-called "farms" in the tropics, by the nature of my activity I came across a little with their activities. In 99% of cases, it all comes down to the fact that barefoot kids run around citrus plantations and collect pupae and caterpillars for candy, and those "farmers" are already feeding them and sending them to customers. That's the way most sailboats work; the troides and birdwings-they string nets in the jungle and let the growing creepers of kirkazon fly through them, and in the end, it all comes down to the same thing. Directly "farm" - a cover for obtaining permits! Even Attacus attlas pupae from the Philippines come with tahini! How can this happen in a farm setting?
So decide whether to add them to the collection or not!

So decide...

Oh, by the way, I noticed that some pupae of Papilio lowii are infected with bzhelkami. Not often, though.

Yaroslav, can you find out more about the birdwing? Have you seen how they are bred?

About troides, a person who has a business based on it told me, and about the birdwing (directly Ornithoptera paradisea) the whole program was from Natiol Geographic about five years ago. All the subtleties of the method from the story coincided with those shown in the program, so I think you can believe it. True, the program also said that these actions help endangered species survive, that the resulting butterflies are released into nature, etc. But what's the point of removing a pupa from a creeper in nature, carrying it to the office or lab, and then letting it go back? Unnecessary risk of damaging it. And on the frames of the generous return to nature in insects, I noticed minor differences in the wings, i.e. unsuitable for collection.
In order not to be unfounded, I will try to find a link on the web to a 40-minute film, in my opinion, "journey through the Amazon", which shows a farm in Brazil, the principle is not much different from the Philippine one, but the meaning is the same: withdrawal from nature and, at most, one cycle.

To RippeR
For P. lowii I did not notice this, maybe because I rarely and not for a long time was engaged in breeding the tropics, but with atlas it reached 70%.
Note that Troides pupae, which come from the Philippines, are attached to a fine mesh with the tip of their belly.

This post was edited by Jarik - 17.01.2009 20: 40

and not just Troides.
And the idea of leuconoe often has pieces of sticks at the end of the abdomen... and almost everyone has nets, even just a little bit.

Unfortunately, I didn't find the movie, there are a lot of different movies with similar titles, and to watch them, you need to buy them. I'll try to remember where I got the movie CD; at least find the exact name, maybe then I'll be lucky in the search.
If I remember correctly, the meaning of the method is as follows:
the catcher comes to the point and catches live heliconid butterflies with a net, moves them to a temporary small aviary and brings them to a large stationary one, where forage plants are already growing, releases the caught butterflies there and waits for the natural continuation. The number of cycles after such a catch in a closed space, etc., was not mentioned.

And some Caligo species are generally pests of banana plantations there. I asked the plantation owner: "well, uncle, please, let me help you with worms from banana palms," he made a mental appearance, and you will also get a candy from him!

This post was edited by Jarik - 17.01.2009 23: 36