Euphydryas and Melitaea

I'm sorry you're out of touch.
I've written a lot about it.
What the generations, mountains, and mottledwort have to do with it is completely incomprehensible.
The issue is closed.

You know, over time, I began to understand that most of the" difficult " taxa are autosuggestion. Take a break from the stamp that you set for yourself. Look at the butterflies. You will be able to formulate clear and permanent differences - you can talk about some other status (here, however, it is important that others see these differences...). No , then this is one type. This is equivalent to looking for "differences" in Apollo populations located one hundred kilometers away in a straight line on a plain with identical environmental conditions, which in principle cannot produce the necessary number of multidirectional mutations in order to implement the multimodation strategy that can lead to the formation of different phenotypes.

In biology, there were just a lot of terms describing different ecological entities of the same species. If you delve into the wilds of this "knowledge", you can go crazy. It is necessary to understand one simple thing: species in nature survive, but do not live, it works (always! everywhere! under any conditions!) natural selection and competition, and therefore any species, are constantly searching for and adapting to improve themselves and increase their chances of survival and self-preservation. Ecomorphs are part of this strategy, and they should be perceived as such - they can completely disappear or appear depending on changes in environmental conditions, as a reaction of the species to these changes.

I hope you haven't offended anyone by returning to your university course in ecology . The basics are everything; sometimes we invent a bicycle with square wheels.

You will be able to formulate clear and permanent differences - you can talk about some other status (here, however, it is important that others see these differences...). No , then this is one type.

Golden words, if only you had followed them yourself.
By the way, what about the twin species?

Golden words, if only you had followed them yourself.
By the way, what about the twin species?

Following.

The twin species also differ in some way, don't they?

If you'll excuse my bluntness, I have the feeling that you're always trying to make fun of me. Not tired of it? End this childhood, it's not good for anyone.

I want to get back to where I started.

YOU COULDN'T CATCH THEM IN THE SAME CLEARING.

That would have been the end of it.
But!
Clear and stable differences in the timing of summer.
Clear and sustainable biotope preferences.
Clear and stable differences in forage plants.
Clear and stable differences in preimaginal stages.
Different number of generations.
Significant differences in appearance.

YOU COULDN'T CATCH THEM IN THE SAME CLEARING.

Has this information been published?
If yes, please provide a link / bibliography of the publication. Don't send it to the Internet - "it's also written on the fence".

Yes. And there are NO differences in appearance. Everything is within the limits of trivia variability. I looked through a lot of them in European collections - and atk and could not find any clear and permanent differences. If I had found it, I wouldn't have raised this issue.

The message was edited rhopalocera.com - 10.02.2014 18: 28

Can we ask the authors for one or two discordia females from the sample series for dissection?

Kuznetsov G. V. 2009 Materials for studying the fauna of the superfamily Papilionoidea (Lepidoptera) Volgograd region / / Kavkazsky entomol. bulletin 5 (2)
Kuznetsov G. V. 2011 Some data on the biology of Melitaea telona Fruhstorfer, 1908 and Melitaea roberti uvarovi Gorbunov, 1995 (Lepidoptera: Nymphalidae) in the Volgograd region. bulletin 7 (1)
Korb S. K., Bolshakov L. V. 2011. Catalog of club-whiskered Lepidoptera (Lepidoptera: Papilionoformes) of the former USSR. Second edition, revised and supplemented / / Eversmannia. Ed. issue 2: 1-124.
Kuznetsov G. V. 2012 Papilionoidea (Lepidoptera) Volgograd region / / Kavkazsky entomol. bulletin 8 (1)

That's all I've read. Evidence (real) is available only in the work from 2011, but they are inconclusive. The caterpillars are somewhat different in color. However, if we talk about biological differences, then in this case nothing has been proven. The resulting offspring should have been propagated and fed with forage plants of both trivia and non-trivia from your region. And look at the result.

Differences in the appearance of imagos are not described anywhere (butterflies are lighter - darker-not a difference for trivia).

Look at the Robertsey type and say: does it look like your uvarov at all???

YOU COULDN'T CATCH THEM IN THE SAME CLEARING.
This is how it all started, and this is how it will end.

But I caught it.
You made me pick up the field diaries .
June 12-13, 2010, neighborhood of the village. The blue ones in the Saratov region.
Oak forest edge along the road, dry meadow.

Can we ask the authors for one or two discordia females from the sample series for dissection?

With a refund, you can.

With a refund, you can.

Thanks! I'll return it of course.

that's right, trivia.
uvarovi flies in May, alas.

I'm talking about phenotypes.
Not about the timing of the summer.
I caught both, in the same place and at the same time!

YOU COULDN'T CATCH THEM IN THE SAME CLEARING.
This is how it all started, and this is how it will end.

But I caught it.
You made me pick up the field diaries .
June 12-13, 2010, neighborhood of the village. The blue ones in the Saratov region.
The edge of an oak forest along the road, a dry meadow.

Why couldn't they catch something together? Just two different species and coexist perfectly together. And it is precisely in such places of coexistence that there is a chance to prove species dualism! Great glade! It is only necessary to observe on it what plants the females lay their eggs on. If suddenly on two different types of plants-it gets hotter! The odds of two types go up steeply. Then you just need to grow butterflies from these two" lines " of feed preferences, and... Put them in the aviary! We look at which ones are mating with which ones. We draw conclusions. And we check" just in case " the series of these copulation duets with a control shot of protein electrophoresis.

In general, see how many criteria of the form:
http://www.avifarm.ru/page.php?al=kriteriivida.
Morphologists are resting.

  
uvarovi flies in May, alas.

Why shouldn't she fly north in early June?

In principle, it is not so important when and how uvarovi flies.
I tried to show that this is 100% not Robertsey. But no one noticed the elephant .
Therefore, I leave this conversation, because it is meaningless by its nature - if people do not notice SUCH differences, then how can we talk about more subtle ones?

Ecology is not a sufficient criterion for distinguishing species. Point. Without correlation with other criteria of the species - and above all morphological - this is all just new data on the ecology of the same species. Period again.

Korobkin's textbook on ecology is highly recommended for reading. And also-at least Myra's Taxonomy and origin of species. In principle, this will be enough to stop making mistakes.

In principle, it is not so important when and how uvarovi flies.
Ecology is not a sufficient criterion for distinguishing species.

So, if butterflies from one glade, one summer period, but two feeding preferences do not mate between preferences, but do it only inside one-it does not mean anything?

Melitaea fascelis = Melitaea uvarovi


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Then you can at least stutter - all that was needed was to compare your butterflies with the original source. And then there would be no uvarovi, no roberti uvarovi, and God knows what other combinations you can think of.

Formally, you can identify the lectotype from the Esper image and safely write it off as synonyms for Uvarov. Not formally-find the Esper type (I think it's in SZM) and do the same.

Amen.

The reason is simple. Fascelis and uvarovi are completely isolated. I tried to think of a couple more species with similar isolation, but it didn't work out. The situation is unique.
They have very different biotopes.

Well, this is in the Volgograd region. It may be different in Saratovskaya. Or, say, in the Urals. Overlapping of the ranges and summer periods of individual populations of these species is possible. This doesn't change their specific statuses at all. Rather, they are even stronger - they do not mix, do not dissolve.

Good tactics.
If you see that you have lost , you need to turn everything upside down and try to convince others that you are right.
Bravo . I give you a standing ovation )).

According to your faith, let it be done to you. Matthew 9: 29
And keep swinging the pendulum of your importance. This is oh so important

Nag, Shura, nag. They're golden.

Melitaea phoebe from the Kherson region (Ukraine).

07.05.2013, a gully below the village of Tomarino



01.07.2013, in the same place, only in the central part of the beam





30.08.2013, sands in the vicinity of Novaya Kakhovka

Caterpillars of Melitaea phoebe and their food plant (Cornflower of Salona).

01.07.2013, a gully below the village of Tomarino, central part.







This post was edited by Wave Storm - 02/18/2014 13: 01

Alexander, please write, according to your observations, are there any differences in the color of caterpillars of the first (wintering) and second generation? If, of course, you managed to learn it.

(in my opinion, Cornflower Taliev).

In the photo cornflower Salonsky. Cornflower Talieva looks a little different.

Valentinus, unfortunately, I can't say, because the first time I met the caterpillars of this butterfly, I haven't met any more yet.

is this didymoides?
Buryatia, Ulan-Ude, 14.07.2013. Females are particularly interesting - a beautiful color variation.
If anyone has one in the collection, then take a picture of didymoides, suchana and latonigena next to it...preferably a series

Pictures:

melitea1.jpg — (282.88к)


melitea2.jpg — (293.87к)

As promised to Valentinus, I publish images of the underside of the wings of Persian specimens of M. zagrosi & M. ornata enoch. If you are interested, you can read the article by Toth & Varga, 2011 with a description of the taxon M. zagrosi, which I assume is the same taxon, but more previously described as phoebe ssp. abbas Gross & Ebert, 1975.

Melitaea abbas (=zagrosi).
male, Esfahan prov. (east part), Marshenan Mts., 2200-2500 m, 18.05.2013
pair, Fars, road Kazeroun-Shiraz, Mian Kotal, 2200 m, 13.05.2013, these specimens were collected in the same place as the zagrosi paratypes caught by Pfeiffer in March 1938. Specimens from the east of Isfahan have some differences from Shiraz specimens-compare them with each other and with zagrosi types. In an article by Toth & Varga, 2011, it is described as one of the features of the ornata species-the difference in the shape of the mace of the antennae, it seems to me that this statement is doubtful. Pay attention to the different shape of the mace in the Shiraz and Isfahan specimens, based on this feature, the Isfahan specimen should be attributed to M. ornata.


Melitaea ornata enoch, male, Golestan, vic. Hajiabad, 2050-2150 m, 26.06.2005

Can someone tell me which taxon ssp is currently assigned to? dorae described from Jordania, Petra, like it's a synonym for telona?? In particular, Hesselbarth et al., 1995 lists it as a synonym for punica telona.

This post was edited by viator000-16.03.2014 17: 18

By the way, in the book Nazari 2003 in the text itself, all taxa are thrown together (in synonyms phoebe). And on the maps of the area of Nazari in general, a complete mess, presumably the nominatip is indicated on the NW of Iran, and the subspecies ssp. abbas in the south (Boyerakhmad, Fars, Kerman, Baluchestan), what is most surprising, the author threw in a bunch to ssp. abbas and populations from eastern Elburs and Kopetdag - ssp. enoch!!! Yes, and the area itself is somewhat strange-interrupted in the north and in the center of Zagros, i.e. the void on the phoebe map!! Nazari often puts all taxa in a heap in the text (like phoebe), and inexplicably separates something on colored tables and maps...
Below is a map of the range of Melitaea phoebe from the book Nazari 2003.


This post was edited by viator000-16.03.2014 16: 33

I decided to enliven the topic a little with a photo shoot with my favorite Meshchersky draughtsman
Euphydryas maturna (Linnaeus, 1758)
26.05.2014 Vladimir region, Petushinsky district, district, village Old Omutischi, sandy road in a pine forest.

Euphydryas aurinia pair on Pleshcheyevo lake - 1.06.2014


This post was edited by sergeySVK - 17.06.2014 16: 17

Euphydryas aurinia pair on Pleshcheyevo lake - 1.06.2014

And where exactly?

Is there a didyma caterpillar in the photo???

Pictures:

IMG_3939.jpg — (323.76к)

And where exactly?

North-western part. Inside the national Park on a clearing on the road to the Veksy spring.

June 13, Samara region, Kinelsky district, floodplain of the Samara river

Melitaea trivia fascelis male

Fascelis biotope

Melitaea phoebe phoebe male

Phoebe biotope


This post was edited by sergeySVK - 17.06.2014 16: 14

Judging by the plants growing in the Samara region, there are a lot of rarities from day butterflies....

Thank you for the article. It is a pity that they did not provide the COI scheme itself. So far, the evidence for synonymy is not very convincing, and the differences in COI of 1.4%, which are postulated in the article, are quite high, and for many groups, especially not young, indicate the species status of taxa - these differences vary in different genera, and often good species differ by 0.5-0.7%. Moreover, you yourself are talking about the time division of summer and different feed areas. I think there's still a lot to dig into.

An amazing piece of trivia!
It doesn't seem quite right to me that subspecies are only geographically isolated populations. Perhaps it is necessary to distinguish ecological subspecies as well?
What does the status form explain? Usually, shape is something that occurs within a single population, like color variations, but in your case, it's not like that at all.

the differences in COI of 1.4%, which are postulated in the article, are quite high, and for many groups, especially not young ones, indicate the species status of taxa

Trivia has a very high level of difference in CO.
And according to Ef-1a, the compared specimens showed not only an identical sequence, but even the same heterozygous nucleotide in a single position.

Pictures:

trivia.jpg — (279.88к)

Thank you, bora. But then again, it's a question of interpretation. If we assume that clade # 18-23 combines 3 different species (this is logical: Afghanistan - Taj-Kazakh, but not indisputable, of course), then the level of species differences for trivia will have to be reduced to about 0.25% - the level of very young taxa. This makes all its isolated populations (and individual clades on the dendrogram) considered independent species. But this is hardly logical.
It's too bad that the uvarovi taxon is not highlighted here in any way, so what can we compare it with (((

Thank you, bora. But then again, it's a question of interpretation. If we assume that clade # 18-23 combines 3 different species (this is logical: Afghanistan - Taj-Kazakh, but not indisputable, of course), then the level of species differences for trivia will have to be reduced to about 0.25% - the level of very young taxa. This makes all its isolated populations (and individual clades on the dendrogram) considered independent species. But this is hardly logical.
It's too bad that the uvarovi taxon is not highlighted here in any way, what can we compare it with (((

Uvarovi is not highlighted, it goes here as a trivial [80] Russia. Vologodskaya. Just in BOLD-e mixed up Vologodskau and Volgograd. They don't know much about our geography there. And judging by the variability of the composition, it is far from a young taxon. And branches 18-23 are most likely 1 type with different names assigned.
In favor of the fact that in the Volgograd region - the only species is just the uniformity of the nuclear gene with a common heterozygote for two specimens - such a thing can only occur with constant crossing.

Gennady, have you tried in the laboratory to adjust the timing of the release of butterflies of these two forms and try to cross them??