Problems of pedagogy

Pedagogy differs from science in that the main thing there is to teach, and in science to study. Things are somewhat different, I think...

The main thing in after-school pedagogy is to teach people to think independently. The rest is secondary.

And this is the main mistake of most colleagues. Because after school, as a rule, it is too late to do this.

Do they teach you to think at school? ooo. Very surprised.

Yeah. That's why I'm surprised you don't do it.

The most terrible thing I think about is not the torment of hell, no, this is not a flood. This is to conduct practical training for students. 2 scary moments - a waste of time and a terrible responsibility.
Local, ticks, bruises, drunkenness - a very incomplete list of dangers. I'd rather take two students to Mongolia at my own expense than lead a gang to teach them the difference between a butterfly and an owl.

As for the responsibility - 300% correct, neither add nor subtract. In general, it is incredibly difficult to be responsible for others (including for their safety), and even when these others, due to subjective and objective reasons, do not seriously think about their own safety, to put it mildly.
But as for the waste of time, here, in my opinion, not everything is so clear. Much depends on the level of organization of the practice and the talent of the manager. I remember with great gratitude and lasting admiration the years of my training at YarSU, when P. G. Oshmarin conducted field practice here. A talented, well-educated person, a biologist with a wide range of scientific interests. "Teach the difference between a butterfly and an owl" - that's not about him. He knew how to do it, and he could teach anyone. It is enough to read his book " Traces in Nature "(Moscow, Nauka, 1990). Many of his students actually became biologists because of his field practice. But I repeat-these are my personal impressions of my field practice as a student (1976-1981), I never conducted one myself, only occasionally, occasionally, at the request of friends (now university teachers), I participated in conducting separate excursions.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 24.02.2010 16: 04

You don't spend time working at school.
Or am I wrong?

Well, duc and I about that...

I'm not arguing about the result. I'm talking about the reason.
If the school is taught by normal people-call them, if you want, good teachers, good educators, but this is not quite true - there will be more sane, interested, reading, thinking people. Otherwise-a computer, beer, drugs and other vegetable pleasures, including the regular urination you mentioned in the entrances ...
B..., I'm already writing about this for the 3rd time. And my posts read, it seems, only Pirx...
Stanislav! I'll ask you a stupid question: do you think I periodically work at the school because I'm interested in it, or do they pay nev there?..nno, or do I have too much time?

In school, my dears, no one can teach people anything. you need a normal family - otherwise (with the rare exception of those born Lomonosov), a person is doomed. I'm working with a teacher right now. I also worked with biologists for a year. Then he was exhausted and left. The only dream of a teacher is to be positive on the Unified State Exam. Harassed women, unsuccessful men... In normal countries, after 10-15 years of working in a school, even testimony in court is considered a stretch because of the profile.
I know the portrait of a modern teacher at school - this is far from a positive portrait. Neurotic personality with low income and a complete lack of social prospects. a normal teacher now is a smart woman under 40 with a rich and loving husband. And such, believe me, a little...

Roman, you disappoint me...
Do you really think that the phrase" if normal people teach at school – call them, if you want, good teachers, good educators, but this is not entirely true " appeared by chance?
I agree 100% that we need a normal family, an institution that is being methodically and purposefully destroyed. But I can only comment on the phrase "at school, my dears, no one will teach people to anyone" in this way: "Protect your imperfections. You have the right. After all, they are your own. " (R. Bach).

Weakness and cowardice... I know it by myself. You have to be a kamikaze to do something like this-to take on a job with a monstrously low efficiency, for which you are also unlikely to be praised, but rather the opposite, no matter how you tear yourself apart...
So it turns out that those who need to be driven out of school often work quietly at school

What do you want from a MODERN medical school, when my good friend is a biology teacher (of the highest category, students of the winners of the Russian Biology Olympiad, students of Moscow State University, Bauman, etc.) and a real man (three daughters, a doctor's wife) gets pennies and just to feed the family works as a security guard at night!??The modern government does not need a school at all - it needs low-paid and dumb employees...

And we help her

Roman, you disappoint me...
Do you really think that the phrase" if normal people teach at school – call them, if you want, good teachers, good educators, but this is not entirely true " appeared by chance?
I agree 100% that we need a normal family, an institution that is being systematically and purposefully destroyed. But I can only comment on the phrase "at school, my dears, no one will teach people to anyone" in this way: "Protect your imperfections. You have the right. After all, they are your own. " (R. Bach).

And why do I disappoint...
There are hundreds of smart, pleasant people in schools...
But thousands of incompetent teachers dilute this mass. I remember my biology teacher. I know the biology teachers at my son's school. This is a disaster.
And if I didn't teach you anything about myself at school. I don't like those places where you always look guilty, where both children and adults look down on you.
As for the educational role of the school, I believe only in genetics and the role of the family. Or in the most talented teachers and rods. (Both are almost gone now)

What do you want from a MODERN medical school, when my good friend is a biology teacher (of the highest category, students of the winners of the Russian Biology Olympiad, students of Moscow State University, Bauman, etc.) and a real man (three daughters, a doctor's wife) gets pennies and just to feed the family works as a security guard at night!??The modern government does not need a school at all - it needs low-paid and dumb employees...

I don't want anything from school. It pains me terribly to read these lines. I hope that my indignation will cause at least heartburn or flatulence in Fursenko and Medvedev.

I don't :D

The very case when inaction is complicity...

about 10 years ago, I, a fool, thought-once a person got a job for such a job, it means it serves him right - it's his own fault. As you get older, you start to think a little differently-and if your vocation is to teach children or treat them... What here. And if you live in a small town or village - and this is yours and it is here that you are successful and know that you will bring social benefits. And then you're doomed...
The cattle from the Kremlin make these people beggars.
Bolivar, don't take this away, I'm begging you.

By the nature of my work, I often have to work in schools (not as a teacher). I must say right away-school to school discord! I've seen so many of them. There are also those mentioned above, yes - there are many of them, but there are also many wonderful secondary schools and gymnasiums that have an excellent spiritual teaching staff (and they do not complain about the salary), and you just need to see how different children are in different schools!
Once I had a chance to advise a girl from the 4th grade on her work at the LEU (scientific society of students) related to butterflies. The girl has an interest in insects in her eyes, but her parents do not allow her to collect the collection!!! You see, they are against killing insects and any other living creatures. Therefore, all the work was based only on observations and photographs taken with the very active assistance of the class teacher (low bow to her for this). For someone it is certainly suitable. However, only time will tell whether her interest will not fade in the future. We can only hope that the children's passion will eventually manifest itself and the desire will go in the right direction at a more conscious and independent age.

Yes, school to school discord. And children are different. I first studied at school 45, which is the center, so bohemian. Second-graders with the surnames Korzhavin, Katsevman, Companeets... Later, 14 candidates of sciences and 18 medalists left the class in different schools. Then I went to school when my parents moved in. 8 is already in the grave. Heroin, trauma...
The families were different. Children of doctors, lawyers, professors, and engineers studied at school 1. In the second, popes were imprisoned or worked with their hands.
That's all the difference.

On the one hand, I agree, but on the other hand, I don't quite agree. Of course, whether the teacher is at least three times a brilliant teacher, but if the child after school again falls into the usual redneck environment, then all efforts will be to the light bulb (well, maybe with very rare exceptions). But if children are isolated from this environment, say in a summer camp, say for a month, and work normally with them, then the most hopeless bullies show completely unexpected positive sides. They can also learn, and they think better than their favorite teachers of excellent students. Of course, this is not a general phenomenon, but it occurs much more often than it seems. Although, unfortunately, most of them return to their native penates and become trilobites again.

Personally, I like working with children. With adults, I don't like that these children have candy boxes poking at them, and they put rotten oranges in their lunch, because they crack themselves when they are good and delicious. I can't keep silent, that's why I didn't become a teacher.

But if children are isolated from this environment, say in a summer camp, say for a month, and work normally with them, then the most hopeless bullies show completely unexpected positive sides. They can also learn, and they think better than their favorite teachers of excellent students.

Perhaps, but believe me, for some reason, all of these hooligans have already died, or have already tired of living, and from excellent students-people have turned out. There's nothing you can do about it. If in the 5th grade everyone said-the prison is crying about him, so it turned out. What to do... Unfortunately. You can't change the roots. Read adolescent psychopathology-A personal note.
Unfortunately, most often it happens like this - hopeless-so there is no hope. Don't mention exceptions. I'm talking about rule

If in the 5th grade everyone said-the prison is crying about him, so it turned out. What to do... Unfortunately. You can't change the roots.

You just say terrible things. I have never considered myself an ardent humanist, but what is the stigma of all dysfunctional people? What I wrote about, I did not take from the ceiling, I am aware of what I am writing about. And yet, books are books, but children are not formulas, what is there in his soul, go understand, and to get to the bottom of this, you need to plow in the truest sense of the word. Of course, there are enough children lost to society already in the middle classes, but they are much less than it seems.

Colleague Guk, do you want to respond to a deleted post?

1. Why do I disappoint...
... ... ...
2. What if I didn't teach you anything about myself at school?
3. I don't like those places where you always look guilty, where both children and adults look down on you.
4. And if we talk about the educational role of school , then I believe only in genetics and the role of the family. Or in the most talented teachers and rods. (Both are almost nonexistent now)

1. You disappoint, because, not believing in success yourself, you convince others of this (=dissuade them, not giving them a chance).
2. Well, here's an example – you failed-so ... no one will succeed?
3. Checked-this ratio can be changed. However, you will first have to change your attitude to yourself, to money, to education ...
4. This is about Faith and atheism… But about the "most talented teachers" I will note that this is bullshit-be a decent and consistent craftsman who adheres to certain principles (or anti-principles, whatever you want) - and this is more than enough. At school.

1. On the one hand, I agree, but on the other hand, I don't quite agree. Of course, whether the teacher is at least three times a brilliant teacher, but if the child after school again falls into the usual redneck environment, then all efforts will be to the light bulb (well, maybe with very rare exceptions). But if children are isolated from this environment, say in a summer camp, say for a month, and work normally with them, then the most hopeless bullies show completely unexpected positive sides. They can also learn, and they think better than their favorite teachers of excellent students. Of course, this is not a general phenomenon, but it occurs much more often than it seems. Although, unfortunately, most of them return to their native penates and become trilobites again.
2. Personally, I like working with children. With adults, I don't like that these children have candy boxes poking at them, and they put rotten oranges in their lunch, because they crack themselves when they are good and delicious. I can't keep silent, that's why I didn't become a teacher.

1. Psychopathologists are Romina's colleagues... It is enough to understand that, for example, all psychoanalysis is based on the position that the "patient" is a priori sick – and much becomes clear… But children are no more "sick" than any of us. And you, Shtil, are 1000 times right in the main thing – you need to be able to "pull out" the guys from the redneck environment. But the main thing next is to help them create a more valuable anti-business environment-inside them, otherwise-back and again-according to your scheme.
2. I don't like it. But the guys like it-when it's honest, serious, without snot, howls and playing along with the administration. However, you will not be tolerated for a long time in this situation. But at the age of 3, children will eat their oranges...

This post was edited by Papaver - 24.02.2010 22: 41

Another branch has been flooded… Where's Elez?"

But seriously, it would be possible to single out a separate topic, something like "Education/training in school (and not only) and entomology".

In my humble opinion, it's hard to think of a more serious (and sad) topic.

In addition, the branch was created for "conversations for life".

In fact, the whole conversation, alas, came down to the philosophical question: "Being determines consciousness or consciousness determines being"?

As our philosopher joked "Beating determines consciousness!"

I'm working with a teacher right now. I also worked with biologists for a year. Harassed women, unsuccessful men... In normal countries, after 10-15 years of working in a school, even testimony in court is considered a stretch because of the profile.
I know the portrait of a modern teacher at school - this is far from a positive portrait. Neurotic personality with low income and a complete lack of social prospects.

  
So it turns out that those who should be driven out of school often work quietly at school

  The modern government does not need a school at all - it needs low-paid and dumb employees...

...work...With adults, I don't like that these children have candy boxes poking at them, and they put rotten oranges in their lunch, because they crack themselves when they are good and delicious.

Yeah, that reminds me of something. Was it a discussion about the police? And why is it that unsuccessful men go to school to work, becoming neurotic personalities, snatching candy boxes from children? And successful and honest people who have specialized pedagogical education prefer to find a place in other areas? Is it not for the same reason that those whose actions so outrage us go to work in the police?

I hope that my indignation will cause at least heartburn or flatulence in Fursenko and Medvedev.

Don't get your hopes up. "Pioneers Ivanov" go very well - after all, they are sitting in the best place, near the window itself...

Nah, the conversation is still a little bit about something else, although of course it reminds me. It's harder to work in good faith in any place than it is to work for free. Somewhere there are objective criteria by which a freeloader and incompetent is calculated. Somewhere this category of employees is not so dangerous. You just can't go to a bad barber for a second haircut, that's all.
But a teacher, a doctor, and (more generally, perhaps) a man with a gun are those professions in which a freeloader can cause very great harm
And the conversation seems to be about what, at least some of us, could be useful in school

Penzyak, sincerely and without offense - if my son was taught by a person with such vocabulary, I would be concerned and would send my son to the ship modeling department... If they don't teach you how to make ships, then at least they won't teach you how to write in Russian

This post was edited by Yakovlev - 02/28/2010 05: 47

Roman, ahead of me. I also wanted to make a comment for a long time, but I held back. In general, if it continues like this, maybe we should do an autorph here?

About the school. Well, yes, there was, I remember, a biologist - interesting lessons, a high level of teaching, etc. She did not like me, however. Once, when the lesson was about the industrial melanism of the birch moth, I, as the "smartest" one, inserted the Latin name Biston betularia, after which I was called a small-toothed worm. As a result, I was slapped with a triple (!?) together with a classmate who couldn't even formulate the term melanism (I'm sure he had no idea).
Yes, by the way, you should study the subject in depth only with those who are interested in it. And there are only a few of them in schools or not at all. The rest are slaves of "Dom-2", "contra", "Call of duty", etc. So it is useless to show birch moths.

This post was edited by Morozzz - 02/27/2010 14: 33

My friends.
I will not now stipulate anyone but ... By the 9th grade, I knew more than our biology and geography teacher. They were husband and wife. He's a biologist, she's a geographer...
I won't say a word about their level. It wasn't there. my classmates came to my house to write essays.
Aleksadr Ivanovich-our biologist when I was in the 6th grade, I bought a book-KK of the USSR. I was thrilled. Then there was nothing - there was a CC. I asked the biologist to give me a CC for a week - in order to copy out what I needed from there. In the evening of the same day, his wife called me home and explained that the CC was bought for 15 rubles in a second-hand bookstore, so I can only communicate with her (CC) after lunch in the presence of her or her husband.
That's why I have no flattering memories of my teachers... I have four people who helped me-Plyushch, Ustyuzhanin and Zolotukhin. The fourth botanist is Shmakov.
I think of school with a sneer...

Rom, relax: http://www.myvideo.de/watch/587486/The_Beatles_Revolution

What, zafludim and the selected topic? Or is it better to create a new one?

What, zafludim and the selected topic? Or is it better to create a new one?

We love you too

Well, finally there is a text there... Go to the topic. (http://www.native-english.ru/lyrics/the_beatles/the-beatles-revolution-song-lyrics - question marks, I think, figure out where to put...)

This post was edited by Papaver - 02/27/2010 20: 40

No, lucche zdesya, and the passion nakalyayutsa...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBAEi7xJJLY

in music, in poetry.....

Eduard Asadov.

How many articles have been written in the world
And how many smart lectures
have been given On how to raise our children,
who are Inquisitive and kind, funny and noisy.

Advice is rushing in from all sides;
scientists, writers,
methodists, and educators write,
and some go out of their way.

They write about rigor and tact,
What is good and what is an enemy for studying.
They say that it is necessary to educate so-
and-so,But in any other way it is impossible!

Thousands of opinions, simple and complex,
Like different courses for
children, That you need to love carefully
And teach children wisdom
from the first steps, well, almost from scratch.

That's right, it's bad if you don't have enough knowledge.
And yet, is this only evil?
And what about success in education,
Forgive my sedition in advance,
To achieve is not so difficult?!

No, the troubles are not themselves
, Whether you want it or not,
And children with vices are not born,
And the pros and cons are gaining
More and more often from their wise parents.

Everyone is waiting for the children's eyes to burn
Unclouded, bright and clear.
And the children are told from morning till dark
that you have to be honest, that lying is terrible.

But how much faith is there in these suggestions?
After all, if the parents themselves lie,
At work and at home, and here and there,
They lie simply, as if they were drinking water,
Where can truthful children come from?!

And conscience? Is it always audible?
After all, if we,as if playing hide
-and-seek, Catch or sometimes grab bribes,
But all our phrases are only worth a penny!

And who will believe the words
That tobacco and alcohol are also harmful,
Since adults are drowning in solid smoke
And someone is so full of wine
That only they can stand at the wall!

And as for the beauty of the native language,
Then all the anthologies are nonsense,
If the child from the dear daddy
Sometimes suddenly hears such a thing.
That the lights go out from shame!

What should I do? Yes, you can inspire this and that,
But the tool, in my opinion, is suitable for everyone's height,
Everything is very complicated and very simple:
Be good. That's all!

I asked the biologist to give me a CC for a week - in order to copy out what I needed from there. In the evening of the same day, his wife called me home and explained that the CC was bought for 15 rubles in a second-hand bookstore, so I can only communicate with her (CC) after lunch in the presence of her or her husband.

Roman, apparently, the episode with KK that came up in your memory took place in the year 1987, didn't it? Actually, these years are not connected with my childhood memories (my son was already growing up). And here's a coincidence: around that time, I also purchased the KK of the USSR, only it cost me more: each of the 2 volumes (plants+animals) for 25 wooden ones. But all the same, I remember very well that 15 rubles in those days for a teacher's salary is not a huge amount, of course, but, let's say, noticeable: books then, by the way, on average cost 5 times, if not more, cheaper. Therefore, the feelings of this woman who did not refuse (let's be fair) It is quite understandable for you to work with the CC, but only for those who were happy for its safety and pristine appearance (I emphasize that they are understandable, and not justified, since we are talking about a teacher). And what, did your desire to work with KK, which was then completely absent from the free market, fade away from the condition set by the geography teacher? Believe it or not, when I was like you then, 13 years old, I would have been grateful for the opportunity to touch the pages of a book. And I wouldn't be offended at the teacher's lack of faith in my accuracy.

I think of school with a sneer...

That's exactly how you remember it - not with a smile, not with humor, but with mockery? And not about specific, individual people, but about the school as a whole? I think that in order to allow yourself to look down on the school with ridicule, that is, almost from above, you need to at least work there and understand that you yourself are doing better, more professionally, more useful (and so on)than those who have worked and are working there. So I tried it at the time. It was enough for me for less than a year, during which I was convinced that it was not enough to have knowledge, to master the subject. Without a pedagogical gift, the ability to pass on your knowledge to children (someone more, someone less-it also depends on the subjective characteristics of students), your knowledge for working in school is nothing. Each of us knows what a teacher shouldn't be like. But only a few of us can work as teachers ourselves, despite the fact that many of them have written in their diplomas: "Biologist. Teacher of biology and chemistry, " or something similar. Don't forget that. And our school with its huge problems can be treated with sympathy, heartache, compassion, empathize with it, be indignant about something, be indignant... But to mock her, in my opinion, is unacceptable.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 02/28/2010 00: 55