Tuva

I would appreciate the scoop fees.

The main thing is to collect weevils, they will be worth their weight in gold from those places

Dergg, wow! So someone is going to Tuva, it would be very interesting to read the pictures and description of what is there.
Maybe I'm wrong, but in the heat of the past sobyty, I kind of realized that no one from the forum members really went there..

to Mantispid

Well, I'll collect all the beetles that come to hand. I plan to distribute/exchange groups that are not very valuable for me personally (including curculionide).


to Hierophis

If I really go there, of course, there will be a report. In general, surely someone from the forum has been to Tuva, it is not so much a "white spot" on the entomological map.

I'm also going to Tuva, but a little earlier-at the end of June, there is a conference in Kyzyl (20 years of the Ubsunur Basin Nature Reserve), then in the fields (to the south, to the border with Mongolia). Details are being worked out. Ideas and advice from experienced people would be welcome.

We have already written about this - probably the most criminal region of the Russian Federation (Dagestan and Chechnya, of course, are not considered). We were in Tuva in the second half of May - everything was just starting to go (bugs). At the same time, there is a possibility that there will be little on the plain in the second half of July. Povyhoret already mustache. But in the mountains, essno, there must be a beetle. The nature there is fantastic. A photographer's paradise)

The topic is called Yakovlev

About the criminality of the region-yes, I have heard. However, I read on the Internet reports of tourists who went to Kara-Hol (or past Kara-Hol) on hikes, they seem to have done well, even with some hospitality from local pastoralists encountered...

In general, Kara-Khol is a high-altitude (approx. 1400 m) lake on the north-western edge of Tuva. Judging by the reports, the local population there, as far as I understand, is not so much, and it does not seem to be the most aggressive. I hope so. No need to take precautions, though.

By the way, does anyone know if you should be wary of ticks there at this time of year? At an altitude of 1400 m, they should no longer be there, especially in the second half of summer. But you never know...

I was in Tuva once, in 1997, with a band. They went from Khakassia, through Kara-Khol, then along Khemchik through the Upper Yenisei to Kyzyl.

In general, a peculiar impression.
Especially considering the fact that just before that I was in Vladikavkaz and the surrounding area-by contrast, so to speak.

There was no crime as such-well, they just lived like this, such a way of life. Whoever fired the first shot, that's the sneaker.
A stranger is an enemy by definition, and Russians were not considered people in principle. And their own, in general, also did not particularly favor, the cops said so - you were not invited here, if you leave in one piece-well, but there will be problems-these are your problems, we have a lot of things to do here without you.

In the cities-fuck knows; I generally got the impression that they could have killed not "because", but "just like that" - well, really, they looked at us with that expression. Yes, and a few local Russians said so.

The further away from the settlements, the more sane the population turned out to be - shepherds who graze cattle in the mountains for six months were generally quite friendly and in a sense even hospitable.

You could negotiate with them somehow-buy food, stand next to them, or something else. They usually do not know Russian or know it very poorly, but at the level of gestures and emotions, they understood it.

It's a bit difficult in the villages. They were not inclined to communicate with strangers at all. The eyes are angry, everyone is either drunk, hungover, or looks like it, not excluding women. If there are trunks, then ready and at hand, full of sawn-off shotguns.

We go along the river, on the bank - children with some gear, we stop the cat, ask if it is possible to stand next to it - the children run away, two men with sawn-off shotguns appear, they point the sawn-off shotguns at us and start yelling - what they are yelling is unclear, but we didn't find out.
And so-constantly.

They tried to get up as inconspicuously as possible, masked tents, hid kats under the shore. And they always went so that at least three of them were in the group, and at least one of them had a gun.

Then the locals lived almost on a subsistence farm-M. B., since then it has become better, and morals too.

Climate - normal continental climate. We were in July-during the day +30, at night +3, the wind-sometimes knocked down on open passes.
The wildebeest was plentiful and angry, but it didn't pose much of a problem - well, the wildebeest and the wildebeest, we didn't see the wildebeest.
A tick in the mountains in July was enough to pay attention to it. Not "horror-horror", but enough.

Yeah. What a wonderful picture is being drawn. I've heard before that things aren't going well there, but I didn't think it was that bad.

Moreover, I'm not going there alone, but as part of a large scientific and educational expedition, in which a) there will be a bunch of middle-and high - school children, and b) there will be no firearms. Before that, we traveled in this format to various places in southern Siberia (Altai, Baikal, northern Mongolia), but the local population was not aggressive. Yes, and there was very little of it in the vicinity of the places where we were standing.

And in this case, judging by the reviews (and not only from this forum), the place is extremely unfavorable for such an expedition... for social reasons. Perhaps we should change our plans.
Unfortunately, the choice of travel location is not only up to me, but I will try to convince those responsible of the extreme risk of this venture.

A friend of mine here, who visited an archaeological camp in Tuva last year, says that Tuvans 'aggression towards newcomers is not even hostility to "Muscovites" and "outsiders" (which, to one degree or another, is found in many places in the outback, even with the civilian population), but purposeful and deep chauvinism towards Russians, supported by separatist sentiments... Even some Tuvan historians came to them at that archaeological camp to give lectures about how the Stalinist regime repressed Tuvans there in the 40s.

In general, I will try to come up with some other option, approximately in the same part of the world (southern Siberia, maybe Central Asia). If someone experienced can give you some advice , I would be grateful...

This post was edited by Dergg - 07.04.2013 14: 28

IMHO-these are already rotten roses on a rotten cake. There, the story is long and ancient, and in itself just not particularly interesting - it is interesting to apply and justify.

Well, that goes without saying. You'd think they were the only ones who were being repressed at that time...

M. B., since I was there, something has changed for the better - at least, I hope. Time passes, and many things change.

That's where I doubt it. In the remote villages of such regions, living on subsistence farming, it is unlikely that anything could change much. Especially the human character. I don't believe in evil%#* some scumbags with sawn-off shotguns could turn into good-natured farmers in 15 years, greeting guests with bread, salt and kumiss... you can't trample on human nature.

And if the Eastern Sayan? there are beautiful places there...

In general, yes, but in principle we were there recently (Khubsugul Lake in northern Mongolia)... We usually try to find new places. If you only try to look for places in Buryatia...

Be afraid of wolves, do not go to the forest

Be afraid of wolves, do not go to the forest

Yes, of course, but to drag children into this forest... IMHO, overkill.

Several of my friends (teriologists) went to Tuva a couple of years ago. Despite the fact that they were accompanied (by no means all local scumbags and nationalists), the stories are close to the impressions of headshotboy.

If you're interested, I can ask you more specifically about the trip.

There are no conversations for children. With them, even on a civilized beach, you will not get enough problems, not like in Tuva
We are waiting for stories (and horror stories too) from any participants in the events.

  
If you're interested, I can ask you more specifically about the trip.

Yes, it would be interesting to listen.

We are waiting for stories (and horror stories too) from any participants in the events.

Horror Story # 1

"For one hundred thousand people, most murders are committed in Tuva." - http://lenta.ru/articles/2013/04/06/crime/

I've been to Tuva 5 times. The region is very interesting. Very! I advise you to go. There are enough fools. I have problems with my knowledge of the Russian language. At least the level of foreign language proficiency in Kyzyl is 15 times worse than in Alma-Ata.
anyone who will go to Tuva (and it will be a couple of companies as I understand it), please help with the collection of leaf beetles (5-10 of the type). If there is a fishing trip to the light, Cossidae are very necessary.
Any places in Tuva are very interesting, except for Azas - there is just a wilderness, taiga, but beautiful reservoirs. And everything in the center, everything in the south and in the west is just fine. Try NEVER AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES to give water to the locals. The most problematic ones are villages such as Ak - Dovurak and Shagonar. No walks in the evening Kyzyl - it's funny. Try to set up a camp unnoticed. But there are also quite decent people. As elsewhere, you can expect help from border guards. if you are in the Sogly area or something, you can easily go to Mongolia, because there are no signs. It can also be on Terekhol near Erzin. This should be very much feared, because the case smells of crime and out of stupid mischief or simple human enthusiasm for beetles - it is not necessary to get into problems.
Anyone who goes to Tuva, Mongolia or Altai can safely write or call me - I can help with some advice.

I took my son with me when I was 9 years old. He had enough impressions. I especially remember the hero city of Shagonar. On the extreme West Tuva is very sparsely populated. Try not to hang out too much in Mughur-Aksy and tell everyone you meet, including policemen, about the place of your deployment.

...
Moreover, I'm not going there alone, but as part of a large scientific and educational expedition, in which a) there will be a bunch of middle - and high-school children, and b) there will be no firearms..
..

Duergg, my simple advice: don't push your luck.
Go yourself. And do not take children in any case.

And for dessert, Google about the excess on oz. Azas. I will immediately say that Todzha (the attackers were from the village. Adyr-Kezhig-everything happens in Todzhinsky kozhuun) just the most peaceful place in Tuva.

  Duergg, my simple advice: don't push your luck.
Go yourself. And do not take children in any case.

Well, since the educational program for schoolchildren is, in fact, the main part of these expeditions, then most likely the place of the expedition will simply have to be moved - somewhere in the Altai, for example. For a number of reasons, it is not possible to take precautions (hide the camp, or organize its protection), and it is certainly impossible to expose the expedition members to such a serious risk.

Yes, judging by most reviews, you can almost as well go somewhere in Afghanistan as to Tuva-it will not be much more dangerous At the same time, the potential catch looks much more promising

Well, since the educational program for schoolchildren is, in fact, the main part of these expeditions, then most likely the place of the expedition will simply have to be moved - somewhere in the Altai, for example. For a number of reasons, it is not possible to take precautions (hide the camp, or organize its protection), and of course, it is impossible to expose the expedition members to such a serious risk.

Exactly.
I am glad that you made the right decision, in my opinion.
Moreover, I advise you not only and not so much as a "seasoned" person, but as a teacher who has repeatedly traveled with various groups of children outside the Garden Ring.)

Yes, judging by most reviews, you can almost as well go somewhere in Afghanistan as to Tuva-it will not be much more dangerous At the same time, the potential catch looks much more promising

I can't say that - I haven't been to Afghanistan. )
But in spite of everything, I love Tuva...
And I'd argue about the catch. But this, of course, depends on your interests.

  Exactly.
I am glad that you made the right decision, in my opinion.
Moreover, I advise you not only and not so much as a "seasoned" person, but as a teacher who has repeatedly traveled with various groups of children outside the Garden Ring.)

Well... I'm not sure. It is necessary to convince the expedition leader of this, who, based on a couple of reports read on the Internet, in which small groups of tourists managed to get along without much trouble, decided that Tuva is an excellent place for such a trip.

These expeditions, organized under the auspices of the MSU Biofactory Department, have a fairly long history, and before that, due to the correct selection of places, any serious troubles and conflicts were avoided... at most, attempts at petty theft from the camp. I don't want the system to fail this year.

I must say that in most of the places we visited, the local population is quite sane... with the right approach. The same Mongols, Kazakhs, and Kirghiz look like gentlemen and intellectuals compared to the Tuvans (as they are called here). The Altaians have a different problem... financial pollution... in popular places like Lake Teletskoye, they are simply dumbfounded by the endless stream of money that carefree tourists pour on them from the cornucopia... and they completely lose their measure. But better financial pollution than banditry

I can't say that - I haven't been to Afghanistan. )
But in spite of everything, I love Tuva...
And I'd argue about the catch. But this, of course, depends on your interests.

I haven't been to Afghanistan either, it's just that there are clearly fewer of our people there than in the regions of the Russian Federation, so the catch from there is more unique As far as I know, new species of diurnal butterflies are still often described from there.

By the way, in the army now the most terrible fraternities are representatives of Tuva. I am very happy that almost no one uses the term Tyva! That's good! Once I saw how 7 men in uniform got drunk from one half-liter - two fell, one sang, four fought. ADHD deficiency is incredible. If you bring a tank of alcohol to any village and open it slightly , in 2 weeks you will only be able to see children aged eight and younger. That's for sure... Such an experiment, thank God, was not carried out, but the result is obvious.
Just make a reservation in Tuva there is a real national intelligentsia, which understands that the people are in the abyss and trying to do something. Very nice people - I had occasion to communicate there with both scientists and government officials, who soberly assess the situation of the Tuvan (their) people as a terrible degradation. Who just cry because the reputation of Tuvans in the country is very bad.
About Toju I agree - this is a b. m. quiet place. Apparently, the eastern Tuvans-Soyots partially adopted Buddhism (special versions of Lamaism with an admixture of traditional beliefs), which makes people more peaceful. The proximity and mixing with the Buryats may also affect. It's hard for me to judge. In the west of Tuva and in most places of the central part, there is only one god - alcohol.
By the way, in Erzin I ate the most delicious belyashi in my life.
The nature of Tuva is an amazing phenomenon. Diversity of landscapes, beauty, and biodiversity...

Well... I'm not sure. We need to convince the expedition leader, who... ...
These expeditions, organized under the auspices of the MSU Biofactory Department, have quite a long history... ...

Hmm... The expedition leader isn't Konstantin, is he?"

I am very happy that almost no one uses the term Tyva! That's good!

Why should we say "Tuva", "Ashgabat", "Uzbekistan" or "Halmg-Tangch"? - there are well-established place names in the Russian language.
Although officially it will be the Republic of Tyva.

As an option: hire an armed guard from the local (say, Kyzyl)district CHOP-a, like tourists do in Afghanistan. And in the Magadan region, by the way, children-tourists in the forest are accompanied by two guards with carbines, in front and behind. These are the instructions. Bears are worse than Mujahideen. Children's tourism is not canceled there, as in a number of other places, because of the dangers. Just need a "man with a gun". If, of course, the expedition budget is sustained.

Today I talked to a friend who participated in an expedition to Tuva. The trip was, if I'm not mistaken, 2 years ago.

The trip was carefully prepared, and a car was hired. Most importantly, there was a local guide, and not a boy, but a serious guy, very authoritative in the places of work of the expedition. They tried not to enter any localities and avoid being seen by the local population. A couple of times there were incidents - local horsemen came to the expedition camp with very aggressive intentions. There were no women or children among the participants, on the contrary, people were quite experienced, but it was creepy. The "uncle" approached the horsemen and after negotiations they left. Negotiations were conducted in the local language, so what exactly was said is unknown. The expedition ended safely.

My friend hopes to return to Tuva again - the places are very interesting. But only with good preparation. He wouldn't have gone for a roll-up. Go with children - no comments.

This post was edited by Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg - 08.04.2013 22: 08

... ...Negotiations were conducted in the local language, so what exactly was said is unknown. ...

But they certainly should have remembered the word "sary." )))

Hmm... The expedition leader isn't Konstantin, is he?"

"Yes, and you know him, then?"

I talked to Konstantin today about all these cases with Tuva. Despite all the negative reviews, he is still full of optimism and hopes for a successful outcome of the case. His main hopes are connected with the administration of the Ubsunur Hollow Nature Reserve (on the territory of which Kara-Khol is located and with which we will have to negotiate a stay). K., apparently, expects that the reserve will give us 100% assurances of safety, place guards with automatic weapons around the perimeter of the camp, and train the locals for our arrival. so that they will meet us with bread, kumiss and singing Tuvan folk songs.

However, we have not yet communicated with the authorities of the reserve, so for now all this is written with a pitchfork on the water... let's see what happens.

However, what is encouraging is that now, at least on a par with Tuva, other options are being worked out.

So this is LASH, isn't it?

However, people were drawn to untrodden lands.
It seems that previous experience has assured the orgs that Everything will Always Be Fine...

So this is LASH, isn't it?

No, LASh has its own specifics... they don't want to go to particularly remote or exotic places... they usually stand somewhere in the EC. And they will definitely not go as far from Moscow as Tuva.

 
It seems that previous experience has assured the orgs that Everything will Always Be Fine...

Well, not all orgies are unanimous on this issue... But for some reason, the manager continues to insist on Tuva. Having received several more or less neutral reviews, he considered the rest "muddy", "not specific", "contradictory", "not corresponding to current realities", "not from that part of Tuva", etc.
In general, much will depend on the reaction of the Tuva nature reserve... if they are not particularly happy with us, the question will disappear by itself.

I talked to Konstantin today about all these cases with Tuva. Despite all the negative reviews, he is still full of optimism and hopes for a successful outcome of the case. His main hopes are connected with the administration of the Ubsunur Hollow Nature Reserve (on the territory of which Kara-Khol is located and with which you will have to negotiate a stay).

Well, if it's a nature reserve, then it's a different matter. People will rarely "hang around" there, and you can ask them to" attach " a local huntsman to you. If there is such a guard, I think it's worth going.

Well, since the educational program for schoolchildren is, in fact, the main part of these expeditions, then most likely the place of the expedition will simply have to be moved - somewhere in the Altai, for example.

I was in the Altai every time as in the war. Constant "harassment" of locals in the village: "give me a beer, who I came to, etc.", once they tried to rob me (I ran away), the second time they were looking for me to "insert" (there was a war between locals and entomologists, I once described it in "Tales"), and I was forced to go to the mountains. They are also no easier: tents are stolen, drunken shepherds can come to visit and sit all evening, swinging... And so on. If you go to the Altai, then put the camp as far away from the settlement as possible. For groceries, come to it in the first half of the day, when there is a "lull", but in no case in the evening. Or stay in one of the tourist areas (Chemal-Elekmonar, for example), where there are many campsites and campsites, and the locals "do not pay attention" to visitors. But there, too, it is better in a protected area, because theft is terrible, you can stay without a camp. Of the most beautiful and safe places, I would recommend the Karakol Lakes area, where local cabs can drop off from Chemal or Elekmonar on an all-terrain vehicle with kung (there are ads in these villages) and take them back. There is a campsite there. If suddenly the snow falls for a long time, you start to freeze, you can "stick" to it. A security guard can go to the sauna for little money... I would go there. If you go to the Altai and have children.

This post was edited by Wild Yuri - 09.04.2013 13: 11

Well, if it's a nature reserve, then it's a different matter. People will rarely "hang around" there, and you can ask them to" attach " a local huntsman to you. If there is such a guard, I think it's worth going.

It is a little alarming only that there is a Tuvan village in the immediate vicinity... so there are some people there.
Plus, judging by the descriptions of the area that I was able to find, there are some pastures and camps of local shepherds at the northern and southern ends of the lake... although, probably, this is still a harmless audience by local standards.

I was in the Altai every time as in the war. Constant "harassment" of locals in the village: "give me a beer, who I came to, etc.", once they tried to rob me (I ran away), the second time they were looking for me to "insert" (there was a war between locals and entomologists, I once described it in "Tales"), and I was forced to go to the mountains. They are also no easier: tents are stolen, drunken shepherds can come to visit and sit all evening, swinging... And so on. If you go to the Altai, then put the camp as far away from the settlement as possible. For groceries, come to it in the first half of the day, when there is a "lull", but in no case in the evening. Or stay in one of the tourist areas (Chemal-Elekmonar, for example), where there are many campsites and campsites, and the locals "do not pay attention" to visitors. But there, too, it is better in a protected area, because theft is terrible, you can stay without a camp. Of the most beautiful and safe places, I would recommend the Karakol Lakes area, where local cabs can drop off from Chemal or Elekmonar on an all-terrain vehicle with kung (there are ads in these villages) and take them back. There is a campsite there. If suddenly the snow falls for a long time, you start to freeze, you can "stick" to it. A security guard can go to the sauna for little money... I would go there. If you go to the Altai and have children.

Well, no one disputes that there are also problem areas there... however, we were there repeatedly on the Teletskoye and Multinskoye lakes, without any special incidents... perhaps, again, due to the fact that these were nature reserves. There was really petty theft on the part of local guides.
What was worse was that literally everyone with whom we agreed-from bus drivers, sheshig, to the authorities of the reserve, having requested one sum for their services in a preliminary agreement, sometimes doubled or tripled their appetites on the spot where we had nowhere to go from them... this style of doing business, what can you do?

The most normal locals there are shepherds.