Number of Hymenoptera species in Russia

let's try it

Sawflies and horntails-2500
Ants-397
Bees-260
Wasps-4000


Nemok-510
Road wasps - 297
Vespid - 196
Burrowing ones - 480
Spangles - 320

Well, finally, at least someone was honored to express their assumptions about the number of species of eels in Russia.
I would also like to know what exactly these figures are based on. Especially when they are accurate. And also, why did the bees get so offended and the Germans get so praised?

Yes, with the bees too. The collector clearly missed. Some andren probably will be more.

Hardly more than that, but about that, probably. But 4000 oss is probably too much.

I want a simple catalog, the numbers are approximate, but I often get lucky

How can you "roughly" count 196 vespids?

This post was edited by Carcharot - 02.11.2017 23: 11

Pictures:

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And I want a directory
So:
All Hymenoptera species in the Russian fauna are ~16,000 species, of which:
slightly less than 10% are Symphyta (~1400 species);
ants ~300;
all Anthophila 750-800;
it is unclear that there are "wasps"; the main groups below
mutilids ~100;
pompilids ~200;
vespids ~160 species;
if "burrowers " are sphecids+crabronids, then 550-600;
chrysidid - there should be at least 150, but perhaps less than, say, 100 were found;
scoliid ~ 25;
the vast majority of other webs (75-80%) are ichneumonids + braconids.
When will the results be summed up? It would be fair to give a bonus to early answers when summing up, even if they are less accurate, and then not sporty, the whole interest is in the accuracy of express assessments by people who are far from the subject

We will sum up the results very soon. We will identify the winners in several categories
I am somewhat surprised by the approach of my colleagues to these figures. After all, sometimes there is no logic at all. For example, it is quite clear from the title what was meant by "wasps" - Aculeata, but not everyone seems to read the task text carefully
Then, 4000 types of wasps. Where can such a figure come from, if the sum of the largest families according to your own calculations ("German-510; Road wasps-297; Vespid-196; Burrowing-480; Blestyanok-320") is 1803?! I.e. less than half?!
Burrowers, in addition to "sphecids+crabronids", are also ampulicides.
It was thought that the proposed versions of the figures would be more evidence-based assumptions or at least reflections than "pointing your finger at the sky".

We will sum up the results very soon. We will identify the winners in several categories
I am somewhat surprised by the approach of my colleagues to these figures. After all, sometimes there is no logic at all. For example, it is quite clear from the title what was meant by "wasps" - Aculeata, but not everyone seems to read the task text carefully
Then, 4000 types of wasps. Where can such a figure come from, if the sum of the largest families according to your own calculations ("German-510; Road wasps-297; Vespid-196; Burrowing-480; Blestyanok-320") is 1803?! I.e. less than half?!
Burrowers, in addition to "sphecids+crabronids", are also ampulicides.
It was thought that the proposed versions of the figures would be more evidence-based assumptions or at least reflections than "pointing your finger at the sky".

Nothing in the title is clear, especially if you don't use scientific names. Aculeata - stinging, or stinging; strange to call wasps also bees and ants. And in this volume there are significantly more than 15 families. If you do not mean all Aculeata, but minus Apoidea (including burrowing wasps)+Formicoidea, then there are still even more abstract families in the world fauna (at least 16). If we mean only those of the latter that are marked in Russia, then it should obviously be less, but I'm not an expert and I don't know for sure. And I don't want to guess whether you include sphecoid wasps or not. It's easier to count species by family.
Ampulicide in Russia is about an order of magnitude less than cockroaches, and those and 50 species are not typed (probably), so +/- up to 5 species do not play a significant role in the calculations.
As for supporting the facts, either you need to do the same work as the group of specialists did when preparing the Catalog, but it is unlikely that its authors will participate in your survey, or you need to point your finger at the sky, based on well-known estimates. Everything else is just as much speculation. For example, you can open a similar Catalog for the Far East in 2012, find 7,500 species and their distribution by family, take the corrections in your mind by group and output the result (or just roughly multiply everything by 2, this often works when comparing the faunas of the Far East and Russia in fairly large groups). Something like this.

I think it's more than twice as much, mostly at the expense of Eumenins. Although I don't rule out the possibility that half of them haven't been found yet.

It seems that there is no place for so many people to come from, this is not the USSR, Russia is large, but cold, and the group is warm. There are 20 species of eumenes proper, but several genera of up to 5 species, and several of 1-2. I don't think it's even 50th. Also East. Ciscaucasia and the border area with Kazakhstan, I believe, are not well studied.

It's simple: wasps are Aculeata minus ants (1 family) and bees (6 families). Naturally, we are talking about operating system families registered in Russia. And according to vespids, the Collector almost hit the nail on the head, which is surprising.

East. Ciscaucasia and the border area with Kazakhstan, I believe, are not well studied.

It's true. And this fully applies to the border with Mongolia.

And how do you like the number 107 only for the European part? Not Russia, however, but the entire post-Soviet Union, but in the European part of the Russian Federation, almost all of them should be, in theory. It seems that in the Asian version - no less. Plus other subfamilies. So if only 160 were counted, it means that they counted poorly. Russia is not all cold, do not forget the Caucasus and Crimea, and Primorye is very different from Kamchatka climatically.

You're both slightly wrong. See my previous post - the number of Vespid species known in Russia was almost guessed by a collector. How he did it is not known.

So, they hurried with this catalog. Because this is clearly a very low figure.

Well, why did you hurry up right away? First, making a catalog does not mean that the study of fauna is finished. Secondly, on the example of the same vespids, take at least the closest analogue - the catalog of the Far East for 2012, it indicates that there are 147 species in Russia, and now, according to my data, 197. In other words, 50 types were added in 5 years. Of these, 40 have already been cited in various publications, which turned out to be very time-consuming and difficult to collect and analyze. In other words, the information was scattered, and there was no general list that could be used. Third, 10 species turned out to be new to Russia, and if it were not for the analysis of all these data (which would not have been done if they had not decided to make this catalog), they would still remain not listed in publications for the country. Fourth, the publication of such works as a catalog simplifies, and therefore encourages further study of fauna - you can immediately see what is new and what is not, which areas are well studied, and in which there are gaps, etc. And fifth, no one will forbid this work to be republished in the future if there are significant additions, for example, in 10 years. And I have no doubt that there will be more finds, since only this year 10 new eumenins are indicated.

Of course, I am far from Hymenoptera, and I think that the volume has already gone to print, but how "painful" it was to look at the" Blue Catalog " without sources (at least b. m. review by region) I understand that this will take 20-30% of the publication volume, but this is just important!

Here we will use a different format, such as the catalog of hymenoptera of the Far East (2012).

well, when already?

The catalog will be published next week. A pdf file of the entire book will be available for download on the ZIN Proceedings page. Anyone, including those who consider themselves the winner of this survey, can easily download it from there.
Below is a list of included families with the number of genera/species:
Xyelidae 3/13
Argidae 7/88
Blasticotomidae 2/3
Cimbicidae 9/72
Diprionidae 8/28
Heptamelidae 2/5
Tenthredinidae 107/1120
Pamphiliidae 9/99
Megalodontesidae 1/12
Cephidae 10/57
Siricidae 5/20
Xiphydriidae 4/21
Orussidae 2/4
Dryinidae 8/63
Embolemidae 2/5
Bethylidae 20/34
Chrysididae 23/330
Sapygidae 5/9
Scoliidae 5/20
Tiphiidae 6/28
Sierolomorphidae 1/2
Mutillidae 20/74
Bradynobaenidae 1/2
Pompilidae 37/246
Vespidae 38/196
Formicidae 44/264
Ampulicidae 2/4
Sphecidae 11/68
Crabronidae 74/613
Colletidae 2/100
Andrenidae 5/245
Halictidae 13/263
Melittidae 3/25
Megachilidae 18/198
Apidae 25/384

Ants were counted more than vespids, and even in terms of the number of genera? Fresh giving, but hard to believe... With great curiosity, I will look at this PDF.

Fresh giving, but hard to believe...

Arguments to the studio!

Well, I wrote "I believe", and the arguments are from another opera. I haven't seen the catalog yet, so I don't have any "iron"ones. But there are some considerations. For example, we, in the Donbass, clearly have more species of vespids than ants. Further, in the "Green" genera vespid (in the current sense) and formicide equally - 42 each. Although, of course, since then many people have been taken away, plus there is only the European part, plus a lot has disappeared from this part now, plus someone was found after, however, in theory, the approximate ratio should be similar. Intuitively, it seems that vespid should be even larger. Just finding them is much more difficult than finding ants (this is no longer intuitive, but quite reliable). But, again, these are just thoughts, not arguments.

The study of these two groups is different, and there have not been any serious studies on vespids (solitary ones) for quite a long time. Now, thanks to new collections (mainly from the Caucasus and Altai), the number of known species is growing. New views are added with each new batch of content. Even after the catalog was already put to print, there were several more-now there are at least 200 of them. I suppose that's not quite the case with ants.

That's what I needed to prove. The fauna of ants, despite their small size and difficulties with identification, is easier to study, because they are active throughout the warm season and there are always quite a lot of them. That is, if you come to a certain biotope at any time from early spring to late autumn and do some simple work, the specialist will study all the local myrmecofauna, or at least most of it. With vespids, everything is much more complicated: you need to get to the right place at the right time to the minute. I hadn't seen katamenes in years, and if I hadn't known for sure that it was found here, and hadn't purposefully kept watch at the spring for a few hours, I would have continued not to see H. Z. for how many more years. Although, it would seem, such a prominent wasp.

The pdf file of the Catalog can be downloaded on the page Proceedings of the ZIN - https://www.zin.ru/journals/trudyzin/supplements.html

I expect from ENO "iron", because all that he wrote above is complete amateurism

Yeah)) Again, the expert is not appreciated)

What the "author of the vespid catalog section" wrote is generally very difficult to interpret in any way, since the questions were about genera, not species.
But if we take the general data on vespids and ants, then ants are 1.4 times ahead of vespids in terms of genera, and why they are equally divided in the post-Soviet period is still a question, maybe this is real data or maybe an underestimation, wasps fly during foraging and are caught in traps, and ants can live locally and live with them for years at different times and very briefly.
And if I also "searched for katamenes" as this expert, I probably wouldn't have found him at all

Perhaps it will be a revelation for the pan of the Southern Ukrainian meganaturalism, but it is not necessary to see these ants at all in order to study the myrmecofauna of the region well. And ants are better than wasps in traps. But usually they are simply collected from the surface of the earth with an exhausteror dug out (then all sorts of eclectors or just sifting). In general, collecting ants is dusty, but not difficult. The only exceptions are the socio-prazitic species that are completely devoid of the caste of workers, but there are not many of them. The main difference between ants and single wasps is the population density, if there can be less than one catamenes individual per square kilometer, which is not so easy for an entomologist to stop, then the number of ants, even the rarest species, will go at least by thousands. But looking for them is certainly not the same activity that Pan is used to-snapping a photo of beautiful, well-visible insects, here other skills are needed. So it is understandable why pan even saw the ubiquitous tetramorium cespiticum for the first time in his life only in the test tube I sent and was very surprised. But it is obvious to me that the catalog is much more deeply developed in terms of ants than in terms of vespids. Considering that in the Far East, where ants were closely studied by such major specialists as A. G. Radchernko, and eumenin was collected only by non-specialists, this is natural. Now, if Carcharot were sent on a "tour"of all those regions of the Russian Federation where myrmecologists worked hard after the collapse of the USSR, and with good pay, then, perhaps, the list of species of vespid would grow by a third.

Well, at least straight to the quotes parse )))

 
But if we take the general data on vespids and ants, then ants are 1.4 times ahead of vespids in terms of genera, and why they are equally divided in the post-Soviet period is still a question, maybe this is real data or maybe an underestimation, wasps fly during foraging and are caught in traps, and ants can live locally and live with them for years at different times and very briefly.

And nobody cares about your "expert opinion" at all. Read on with your Pedivikia and be proud of it.

But it is obvious to me that the catalog is much more deeply developed in terms of ants than in terms of vespids.

The vespid catalog is as thoroughly developed as possible - the fauna itself (i.e., our knowledge about it) is not developed.

Considering that in the Far East, where ants were closely studied by such major specialists as A. G. Radchernko, and eumenin was collected only by non-specialists, this is natural.

It was in the Far East that N. V. Kurzenko worked. And white spots in the south of Siberia and the Caucasus. Well, in the Volga region and the Urals there is still a lot of unexplored.

Now, if Carcharot were sent on a "tour"of all those regions of the Russian Federation where myrmecologists worked hard after the collapse of the USSR, and with good pay, then, perhaps, the list of species of vespid would grow by a third.

It would have grown significantly, but it wouldn't have caught up with the ants.

And you can't extrapolate the global distribution to a single area of the Palearctic. In the tropics, the species (and generic, respectively) richness of ants is much greater, and vespids - the same, or even less.

You're right about that, of course, but can't you just open page 16 of the catalog?
Vespidae - 256 genera and 5274 species in the world, 90/1181 in the Palearctic and 38/197 in Russia.
Formicidae - 485/13978 in the world, 94/1350 in the Palearctic and 44/264 in Russia.
Based on the data for the Palearctic, vespids in Russia should be less, although not so much. In the future, there will be additions, I hope.

 
Generally the Katamenese live in groups

Well, yes, one group for several km. And Celonites also live in groups, but one group of each species for the whole of Russia. And how do onychopterocheiluses live, have you ever heard, and what traps are they caught in?

then the question is, why are there more vespids in the Plearctic than ants? )))

WTF?

And nobody cares about your "expert opinion" at all. Read on with your Pedivikia and be proud of it.

It is not often possible to see a person who combines EVERYTHING ))) Just in case, I explain - to say from one person about the entire set of the human population, this is at least strong))

If someone on this forum (not necessarily in this topic) proves the opposite (i.e., expresses that they are interested in your opinion on the issue under consideration - the number of taxa of perepons in Russia), then I will publicly take my words back.

And the number of genera is generally a very subjective thing (compared to the number of species) and in different groups largely depends on traditions.

And how do onychopterocheiluses live, have you ever heard?

Here's how I'll find out)) Although, it seems to have already been found.

It is observed: at least a thousand entomologists went all over Donetsk to search - not a single swallowtail will be found. And so, for at least three months, but seriously, the number of swallowtails in my area has been growing in recent years, but slowly, much slower than it fell. And the autumn ones (that is, in theory, the third generation) are not to be seen at all. Only spring and summer ones. So, probably, it's still a matter of global (or local, but long-term) cooling. Earlier, I remember, in September and early October, there was a darkness of swallowtails, more than at other times of the year.

What's wrong with the trunk?

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B5%...%BE%D0%BD%D1%82