Hesperiidae

And in general, it's time to convene the 1st All-Ukrainian Congress of Hesperidologists.

Golden words, join us.

I will also add that dissecting genitals is a fascinating and, in principle, simple task. Thanks to my colleagues, including okoema, for their advice - thanks to them, everything worked out for me from the first time.  

If necessary, I am also ready to provide assistance to those who wish/need it.

I'm a lazy guy, so I can't do anything about dissecting the genitals, but it's high time, not a few controversial issues have accumulated.

dissecting the genitals is a fascinating and basically simple task.

Absolutely not complicated and very exciting, so it is. If I had known it was so easy, I would have started cooking much earlier.

damn, well, just spur you to go look for lye, well, oh!

damn, well, just spur you to go look for lye, well, oh!

Andrey, you can even do it without lye. I once cooked small scoops in plain water. At the same time, there are certain advantages. The structures of the genitals retain a special elasticity and strength, and everything superfluous is easily separated. Cooking in plain water is suitable for scoops, I guarantee, as I have tested on several dozen butterflies of the genus Chryphia. For pyadenits I think it will not work. I didn't try it for daytime ones.

it will be necessary to try ))

Pyrgus carthami, male,
identification error, after cooking the genitals became Pyrgus serratulae, thanks okoem
Ukraine, Zaporozhye region, end of May.


Photos in nature with 100% confidence that it is carthami on the map.
Cooking is not difficult, it is difficult to figure out later with images, what and where to look, but over time there is an epiphany and everything is really simple. But there are exceptions.

This post was edited by Djon - 11/23/2009 12: 41

Instead of Pyrgus carthami.
In the nature of Muschampia tessellum,
Ukraine, near Zaporozhye, late May.

Guys, I don't understand what the bazaar is about at all. I'm sorry for that expression. Genital dissection is such a daily and simple task for an entomologist. You try to allocate some temporary arrays for it. AUTUMN, after the New Year...
One evening I watched 50-60 butterflies and that's it. You will not be rolling drugs in euparal. What problems. I hardly understand.

Pyrgus carthami, male

And in my opinion quite normal P. serratulae.

Guys, I don't understand what the bazaar is about at all. I'm sorry for that expression. Genital dissection is such a daily and simple task for an entomologist. You try to allocate some temporary arrays for it. AUTUMN, after the New Year...
One evening I watched 50-60 butterflies and that's it. You will not be rolling drugs in euparal. What problems. I hardly understand.

On the forum not only, entomologists are pros. There are a lot of amateurs who don't know how to cook, what to watch and what to watch.

And in my opinion quite normal P. serratulae.

Opinions are divided, so I will cook.

tolkyo just tried cooking the bellies of Pyrgus malvae and Erynnis tages.
The first one was boiled in water with a drop of fairy, and the other in ethyl acetate.

As a result, nothing happened - the structures did not soften enough, the genitals could not be separated.. We need lye..

Some results are ready.
To begin with, I will note that for the definition I used:
alveus / armoricanus - Obraztsov, Shelyuzhko (1939), Nekrutenko (1985), Lvovsky, Morgun (2007)
carthami/serratulae - Nekrutenko (1985), Lvovsky, Morgun (2007).

The alveus and armoricanus are defined as:
1. If the cucullus is wide and clearly more than half the circumference, it is the alveus, otherwise it is the armoricanus.
2. In addition, if the end of the uncus is not sharply bent down and reaches or slightly does not reach the most distant edge of the valva - this is the armoricanus, if it is sharply bent and very much does not reach this edge - this is the alveus.

The difference between Serratule and maps is as follows:
1. On the top of the cucullus there are clearly visible sharp spikes - these are maps, there are no sharp spikes - this is serratule.
2. On gnathos there are no large teeth - these are maps, on gnathos there are very large, clearly visible teeth - this is serratule
3. Uncus is almost naked, does not contain a bunch of hairs - this is maps, uncus contains a bunch of clearly distinguishable hairs - this is serratule.

In principle, this can be seen quite clearly in the book of Lvovsky and Morgun.

So, P. alveus was not found, all the cooked butterflies were
P. armorocinus (males):
- 20.05.2004, Cherkasy region, Cherkassy, Dakhnovka
- 11.08.2007, Cherkasy region, Cherkassy, Dakhnovka
-04.08.2007, Cherkasy region, Mankovsky district, Buki village
-10.08.2008, Odessa region, Kalinovka
village - 22.09.2008, AR Crimea, Belogorsky district, Belaya Skala
- 16.07.2006, AR Crimea, Kerch district- n, Kazantip
- 29.07.2007, Kiev region, Ivankovsky district, Khochevo village

Oh, it's a pity that there is no opportunity to take a photo, illustrate... But still.

Central Ukrainian cartamiform pyrgus look like it is depicted in the photo of Gennady Palamarchuk. These are fairly large butterflies, with a wingspan of 33-38 mm, with a fairly light underparts and a well-marked, mostly fairly wide white stripe along the edges of the wings from below.
Cartamiform pyrguses from the Crimea, which I found (2 specimens), are smaller, 26-33 mm, but a white stripe along the edges is also present. In addition, the top white spots on both crl. are clearly defined, they are quite wide. That is, the top of these butterflies is identical to the top of butterflies from Central Ukraine.

As a result:
25.06.2006, Cherkasy region, Zolotonosha district, Khvylivka village - P. carthami
07.05.2009, Crimea, Kerch district, Leninskoe village - P. serratulae

Now for the comments.
1. Externally, the Crimean specimens that turned out to be serratulae are much more similar to carthami. In comparison, for example, with the serratulae depicted in Gennady (classical, mind you!), these seem to be different species. At different times, several subspecies of serratula were mentioned for Ukraine. In any case, we are probably dealing with very different ecological forms of the same species, and possibly with subspecies. Or maybe...

2. The subspecies P. carthami moeschleri was also mentioned for Ukraine, along with the nominative one, which at the moment are not clearly different. In addition, large cart-like specimens are also known from the Crimea, but at the moment, unfortunately, I do not have such materials for research. Therefore, I will continue to collect materials on this group and, if you are interested, I will post the results here. I want to get and refer to the European revisions of the Pyrgus genus - I am sure that then the situation will become clearer.

In the meantime, in Ukraine, with a high degree of probability, there are both carthami and serratulae, and in the Crimea, with the same share, there are serratulae. The presence or absence of carthami in Crimea should be confirmed, so I intend to explore as much Crimean material as possible.

Thanks for your attention

This post was edited by Damone - 11/20/2009 18: 31

 
07.05.2009, Crimea, Kerch district, Leninskoe village-P. serratulae

Interesting! The biotope there is certainly suitable, but I have never met them in the steppe Crimea, although I visited those places during this period (Leninsky district, not Kerch, for accuracy) quite a lot.

It may be dangerous, but I'm careful ))
But I would like a better result, so that at least something came out.. in the meantime..

Some results are ready.

Here's the deal!!!

Well, I would say that the fact of using maps in Ukraine can be considered proven.

Sergey, what are the "European revisions"? Do you have any links?

I know that from Central Europe they are described in the alveus/armoricanus group with the rank of P. trebevicensis and some other species. I had a link, but I can't find it...

As for the variety of serratula forms , I have been asking myself this question for a long time. I wonder if the variability is clinal in nature? Pictures in books, apparently, can not be trusted...

I'll post images of my genitals just in case. That is, of course, not their own, but... well, in general, it is clear.

P. armoricanus, 21 / VII / 2009, Novovodolazhsky district, Kharkiv region

Pictures:

P._armoricanus__m___7_21_2009__Kh__NVod.JPG — (135.97к)

P. serratulae, 28 / V / 2009, Kharkiv region, Dvurechansky district

Pictures:

P._serratulae__m___5_28_2009__Kh__Dvur.JPG — (141.61к)

so that at least something will come out.. in the meantime..

To do this, I think you should go to the nearest school, find a chemistry teacher there, give her a box of sweets (or a bottle of vodka, if this is a teacher) and she will be happy to share the alkali Just do not forget that dry alkali is very hygroscopic, you need to stock up with a hermetically sealed pharmacy bottle.

I found one revision:

de Jong, Rienk (1972): Systematics and geographic history of the genus Pyrgus in the Palaearctic Region (Lepidoptera Hesperiidae). - Tijdschr. Ent. 115, pp. [1-121]

But where can I get it?

Tijdschr. Ent. is one of the oldest entomology journals in the world. I am sure that this article is available at KNU and the Institute of Zoology of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. De Jong is not a bad guy, he works in Leiden, if you write to him and justify the need for an article, I think he will send it.
Cook only with lye. 5-10%. better in a water bath. For hesperides, 15-20 minutes. Lye is not a problem to find if you want. The signs of differences between thickheads are quite good. I myself am not an expert in this group and cooked a little, but everything looks decent.

Well, a normal post, unlike the previous one.(№95)

This post was edited by Egorus-20.11.2009 21: 58

De Jong is not a bad guy, he works in Leiden, if you write to him and justify the need for an article, I think he will send it.

I've already written to him. Let's look at the result.

As it turned out, this is actually his dissertation.

De Jong is very often on the road, he works very hard in Indonesia and Vietnam. I don't know if he will send it, but in general the guy is very nice and benevolent

Here is such an article found ...

N O T E S O N T H E G E N U S PYRGUS ( L E P I D O P T E R A , H E S P E R I I D A E ) by R . D E J O N G 4 april 1975

http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/150699

Here is such an article found ...

This is all I've already found.

  
Sergey, what are the "European revisions"? Do you have any links?

I meant De Jong. In addition, I was once told that there is still a revision, but I forgot the author, unfortunately. I will be in Kiev from Monday, I will find out all this.

I can also say that in my opinion, in your photos the definition is absolutely correct

For us, Ukrainian hesperidologists, other work will be more useful now:

http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/149628

It is devoted to taxonomic issues, and it is not about them now, but there is a curious table at the end, where P. serratulae major and P. carthami are depicted side by side. It works very well for me! (And written by a specialist, stupid mistakes are excluded.) In particular, it brings confidence that we still have maps in the region.

Subspecies major is indicated for Transcaucasia, but what we have here (Kharkiv region) and in the Crimea is very similar in habit.

I can also say that in my opinion, in your photos, the definition is absolutely correct

So it seems to me now, after watching de Jong, which is written above.

Maybe in Kiev libraries there really is a "basic" De Jong?

So it seems to me now, after watching de Jong, which is written above.

You probably meant a photo of genitals, and I - a photo of imago on my website...

In addition, P. serratulae uralensis Warren, 1926 was also mentioned for the territory of Ukraine.

You probably meant a photo of genitals...

Exactly.

This post was edited by Damone - 11/21/2009 00: 45

OK, de Jong answered and promised to help, i.e. send (maybe only partially) his work.

In turn, he asks for help from us. He is interested in information about the current distribution of Muschampia cribrellum in Ukraine. Also, do the specimens from Ukraine differ from those from the type locality (Southern Urals and Volga region)?

I do not have such reliable information, and I have never seen cribrellum from Ukraine. If anyone can help with this , please let me know. You can write to your personal account.

After studying all sorts of images, it seems to me that:

1) Material from the Khmelnitsky region (post #76) - really still with maps on the left, serratula on the right.

2) Material from Zaporozhye (post #93) - serratule!

But all this-IMHO, and it would be good to cook...

Kharkovbut
Muschampia cribrellum: Rostov region, close to Ukraine

Pictures:

Muschampia_cribrellum.jpg — (402.55к)

Throw off de Jong's address, the old one doesn't work!

While my pyrguses are getting to the Crimea help me decide on this





On top of the cartamiform serratulae from the Crimea, on the bottom a specimen from the vicinity of Zaporozhye also turns out to be serratulae?

On top of the cartamiform serratulae from the Crimea, on the bottom a specimen from the vicinity of Zaporozhye also turns out to be serratulae?

IMHO, it's almost certainly true.

Throw off de Jong's address, the old one doesn't work!

In the personal account.

Pyrgus carthami, male
Ukraine, Zaporozhye region, late May.
[attachmentid()=76128]
[attachmentid()=76129]

Cooked, definitely turned out serratulae. Thank you Volodya for correcting the definition. in parallel, I cooked three more pyrgus from the roc. Zaporozhye 2-alveusa, 1-armoricanus. It is strange earlier when cooking came across only the last. Photos of genetalia didn't work out.
Question addition to

Some results are ready.
To begin with, I will note that for the definition I used:
alveus / armoricanus - Obraztsov, Shelyuzhko (1939), Nekrutenko (1985), Lvovsky, Morgun (2007)
carthami/serratulae - Nekrutenko (1985), Lvovsky, Morgun (2007).

The alveus and armoricanus are defined as:
1. If the cucullus is wide and clearly more than half the circumference, it is the alveus, otherwise it is the armoricanus.
2. In addition, if the end of the uncus is not sharply bent down and reaches or slightly does not reach the most distant edge of the valva - this is the armoricanus, if it is sharply bent and very much does not reach this edge - this is the alveus.

The difference between Serratule and maps is as follows:
1. On the top of the cucullus there are clearly visible sharp spikes - these are maps, there are no sharp spikes - this is serratule.
2. On gnathos there are no large teeth - these are maps, on gnathos there are very large, clearly visible teeth - this is serratule
3. Uncus is almost naked, does not contain a bunch of hairs - this is maps, uncus contains a bunch of clearly distinguishable hairs - this is serratule.

1. On the top of the cucullus there are clearly visible sharp spikes - these are maps, there are no sharp spikes - this is serratule.
Mine has small spikes, but everything else is very clear in all the definitions.

In a pair of Alveus and armoricanus, only the length of the uncus does not work, all of them do not reach the edge of the valva.
There is another sign of the base of the garp in alveus that is almost twice as wide as in armoricanus.