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Hesperiidae

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11.02.2010 7:37, bora

And the visually depicted butterfly is a 99% serratule.

And in pursuit of the butterfly serratulae, defined genitally.
And visually, alveus is 99%. So?

This post was edited by bora - 11.02.2010 08: 20

Pictures:
picture: serratulae.jpg

serratulae.jpg — (89.45к)

Likes: 1

11.02.2010 9:49, Сергей-Д

And in pursuit of the butterfly serratulae, defined genitally.
And visually, alveus is 99%. So?

My serratula is visually slightly different from alveus-armoricanus, but on the underside: there are at least some remnants of a strip along the edge, and the mace of the antennae is dark and not orange from below. Although maybe it's only I have such differences, IMHO on the genitals at times more reliable. Here are my serratulas:
picture: _Pyrgus_armoricanus_4_up_5. 06. 2009_Находкин_Яр.јрд

picture: _Pyrgus_armoricanus_4_up_5. 06. 2009_Находкин_Яр.јрд

picture: _Pyrgus_armoricanus_4_un_5. 06. 2009_Находкин_Яр.јрд

picture: _Pyrgus_serratulae_5_up_5. 06. 2009_Находкин_Яр.јрд

picture: _Pyrgus_serratulae_5_un_5. 06. 2009_Находкин_Яр.јрд

Not bad with Alveus turns out! Can de Jong send a picture?
"lobes" according to Lingvo in biology and medicine - "share; petal".
by the way, this specimen was caught in a biotope that is not quite typical for alveus-a dry chalk gully, near tanais and croaticas.

This post was edited by Sergey-D-11.02.2010 09: 50

11.02.2010 10:35, okoem

And in pursuit of the butterfly serratulae, defined genitally.
And visually, alveus is 99%. So?

So they are on top and do not differ in my opinion. Serratula generally has a very variable top. We need to look under the covers.

this specimen was caught in a biotope that is not quite typical for alveus - a dry chalk gully

In the Crimea, the serratula inhabits similar biotopes - rocky calcareous slopes.

11.02.2010 11:37, bora

So they are on top and do not differ in my opinion. Serratula generally has a very variable top. We need to look under the covers.

Here are your gentlemen morphologists and underparts (as well as genitals). And now please explain to me, a peasant, what is the difference between habitus? I only see differences in the genitals. The morphology completely overlaps.

Pictures:
picture: serratulae_alveus.jpg

serratulae_alveus.jpg — (170.95к)

Likes: 2

11.02.2010 13:50, Сергей-Д

In the Crimea, the serratula inhabits similar biotopes - rocky calcareous slopes.

serratula yes, and I'm writing about the discussed female alveus from Luhansk.

bora: now ALL cook after such foto

11.02.2010 15:39, bora

bora: now cook EVERYONE after such photos

It is not necessary to cook all males. In the field, I take the butterfly by the abdomen with tweezers in front of the genitals, press, the genitals come out of the abdomen, and the details are perfectly visible through a magnifying glass with a magnification of more than 10.

This post was edited by bora - 11.02.2010 19: 02

Likes: 3

11.02.2010 19:50, Kharkovbut

In my post about monkeys photographing genitals, I did not want to offend anyone in any way, but only once again admire the drawing of palvasru4ko. I sincerely apologize if I did offend you.

bora: Thank you again for a lot of useful information! Tell me, please, in the genitals of the female serratulae, how many of these lobes are there? Also two (not very clearly visible in the picture)?

To be honest, the instance from Luhansk still baffles me a lot. (Or am I the only one so dead-end?

You can also send de Jong, why not? I can do this (because I have a positive experience of correspondence), if palvasru4ko and Sergey-D authorize me to do so. Or send it yourself.

Likes: 1

11.02.2010 20:00, bora

Yes, there are only two blades. Just the genitals are slightly turned sideways (they float in glycerin).

This post was edited by bora - 11.02.2010 20: 04

Pictures:
picture: serratulae.jpg

serratulae.jpg — (74.53к)

Likes: 1

12.02.2010 4:40, bora

Another interpretation of the "middle finger phenomenon"is possible. Several times I came across females, though Callophrys pigeons, who had a spermatophore sticking out of the antrum in the form of a sort of outgrowth. If you gently pulled it, it popped out like a cork from a bottle. The third (middle) lobe on the preparation of Pavel may be just a spermatophore between the two lobes of the post-magnetic plate. True (lateral on the preparation) blades may look more compact than in my photos, if the preparation is a little undercooked.

This post was edited by bora - 12.02.2010 05: 07

Pictures:
picture: 11.jpg

11.jpg — (66.02к)

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12.02.2010 4:54, bora

Here's another copy. True, Callophrys has a spherical spermatophore.

Pictures:
picture: 2.jpg

2.jpg — (26.81 k)

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15.02.2010 23:16, Kharkovbut

With Sergey's permission, I wrote to de Jong. No response yet. He might be out of town.

Just in case, under the influence of Pasha's pathetic post: I also do not pretend to do anything in this story, except perhaps to establish the truth and help my colleagues. IMHO, this is the main thing.

Thank you all and good luck.

Likes: 1

16.02.2010 0:31, okoem

1. Drop the "genital aberrant" option

The first thing I would do is build a series. And then everything else. If, of course, it is confirmed that this is not an aberration.

Likes: 5

16.02.2010 5:25, bora

Undoubtedly, it is necessary to catch fish and cook.
However, females are good, but don't forget about males!

I believe that with such a public discussion of the issue, there is hardly anyone who wants to grab this material and offend the "little ones".

I especially liked the antevaginal plate, completely sclerotized.

For "rags" there is another method of contrasting the drug. You can put the drug for a while in a dye that has a selective affinity for proteins, for example, Coomassie Brilliant Blue. Paul can find it in his honey. I once did this to contrast the genitals of females, but unfortunately I can't show you - the drugs have long been lost.

This post was edited by bora - 02/16/2010 10: 56

Likes: 4

16.02.2010 11:17, Сергей-Д

The first thing I would do is build a series. And then everything else. If, of course, it is confirmed that this is not an aberration.

The series would be nice to collect, but in those places where I visit pyrgus (except mallow) b-m are rare, come across single copies. I've been trying to catch everyone for the last 2 years. That day, according to the diary, there were 2 pyrgus. It turns out that I either didn't catch the second one, or sent it to a colleague, I'll find out today.
I would also not rule out aberration - well, some parts strongly resemble alveus.

16.02.2010 12:04, okoem

The series would be nice to collect, but in those places where I visit pyrgus (except mallow) b-m are rare, come across single copies.

I agree. However, it doesn't happen year after year. For example, in the fall of last season, we came across armoricanus in places where it seems to have never been before.
In general, if there is a butterfly (species), then somewhere it flies. In the neighboring gully or in the neighboring district - somewhere there is a must.

Likes: 1

16.02.2010 14:45, Alexandr Zhakov

Gentlemen, don't you think that the male already appears on this page, those armoricanuses that are not quite armoricanuses?

16.02.2010 18:26, Penzyak

Sorry not quite in the subject:
Has anyone ever compared the genitals of steppe and forest H. comma L.??? In our forest-steppe, how many did not look for "forest" did not find!?? Only steppe people...

16.02.2010 19:07, lepidopterolog

Comma has a fairly wide range of biotopic affinity - in the MO, I met it both on xerophytic and mesophytic meadows and even on oligotrophic swamps! And in the Caucasus, it flies in alpika.

16.02.2010 19:33, bora

comma in the Caucasus, she flies in alpika.

both in the subalpine and in forest clearings...

22.02.2010 20:56, Alexandr Zhakov

Images of genetalia for post # 129. In light of all the discussions. Doubts creep into Alveus. See and express your opinion.
What I think is Alveus.
picture: IMG_9718м.jpg

armoricanus.
picture: IMG_9724м.jpg

what I initially thought was Alveus. now with armoricanus.
picture: IMG_9729м.jpg

Likes: 3

22.02.2010 21:05, Kharkovbut

Images of genetalia for post # 129. In light of all the discussions. Doubts creep into Alveus. See and express your opinion.

IMHO, all armorikanusy.

Likes: 1

22.02.2010 21:21, bora

The first genitals are somewhat transitional

Pictures:
picture: alveus.jpg

alveus.jpg — (180.26к)

Likes: 2

22.02.2010 21:26, Alexandr Zhakov

It seems to me that if we cook a lot and persistently, we will fill the entire row: along the width of the cululus and the width of the garpa process. Other signs work even worse. An interesting picture will turn out.

22.02.2010 21:33, bora

Someone recently wrote that alveus is an invention of taxonomists?

Pictures:
picture: Pyrgus_spp..jpg

Pyrgus_spp..jpg — (206.9к)

Likes: 5

22.02.2010 21:38, Alexandr Zhakov

Nice row. I'm talking about the same thing.

22.02.2010 21:39, bora

Now I got into the genebank, so everyone is lazy and no one has looked at the genetics of either Alveus or armoricanus. Only Americans watched their Pyrgus-ob

Likes: 1

22.02.2010 21:54, okoem

Someone recently wrote that alveus is an invention of taxonomists?

Only in my opinion, on the contrary, it was armoricanus isolated from the alveus. It turns out that armoricanus is an invention

This post was edited by okoem - 22.02.2010 21: 58

22.02.2010 21:55, Kharkovbut

Someone recently wrote that alveus is an invention of taxonomists?

I wrote...

But it still seems to me that the leftmost genitals are qualitatively different from the rest. Cucullus is too big...

Although this may be an illusion. The devil only knows...

22.02.2010 22:02, Kharkovbut

Only in my opinion, on the contrary, it was armoricanus isolated from the alveus. It turns out that armoricanus is an invention

I meant first of all that I did not see on real preparations what they draw in pictures, passing off as Alveus.

But now we've seen a lot.

22.02.2010 22:05, Egorus

22.02.2010 22:08, Kharkovbut

The genitals of the Alveus group, as depicted by de Jong in his dissertation.

Pictures:
picture: 0024.jpg

0024.jpg — (93.13к)

Likes: 2

22.02.2010 22:11, bora

And what did the Americans "look out for"?

Nothing interesting for us, unfortunately.

According to my observations, butterflies with alveus genitalia have only one difference from armoricanus-they are on average 20% larger. Perhaps this is the reason for the massiveness of individual structures of the genitals. I have seen something similar in M. tessellum: the smaller the specimen, the "slimmer" the structure.
By the way, in addition to size, morphological features overlap.

Pictures:
picture: M.tessellum.jpg

M.tessellum.jpg — (222.8к)

Likes: 4

22.02.2010 22:12, Kharkovbut

And what did the Americans "look out for"?

Duc, there pyrgusy our perpendicular at all. Only centaureae are found in America. And then, perhaps, these (in Eurasia and America) are actually different species.

Likes: 1

22.02.2010 22:16, Egorus

Actually, I thought they were looking at genetics...

22.02.2010 22:18, Kharkovbut

According to my observations, butterflies with alveus genitalia have only one difference from armoricanus-they are on average 20% larger. Perhaps this is the reason for the massiveness of individual structures of the genitals. I have seen something similar in M. tessellum: the smaller the specimen, the "slimmer" the structure.

How interesting!

22.02.2010 22:24, Kharkovbut

What about the caterpillars of these "species"? Namely-hetotaxy, coloring? Does anyone have any information?

There is.

Wolfgang Wagner, for example. Here you can view it:

http://www.pyrgus.de/download.php

Likes: 1

22.02.2010 23:13, okoem

Just like with egg yolks - we are waiting for Bruno
What about the caterpillars of these "species"? Namely-hetotaxy, coloring? Does anyone have any information?

Here is armoricanus.

Pictures:
picture: 20091129_110532.jpg

20091129_110532.jpg — (195.95к)

picture: 20091213_104340.jpg

20091213_104340.jpg — (250.28к)

Likes: 7

23.02.2010 1:59, Kharkovbut

Here is armoricanus.

Has it already been removed? I.e. how well-tested is armoricanus?

23.02.2010 3:06, Kharkovbut

Since we're talking about that, too... this is what some North American pyrgus look like (there is also an opinion that these are not pyrgus at all...

Pyrgus communis male, 5/V/2006, St. Joseph Co, IN, USA

Pictures:
picture: P_communis_m_5_05_2006_ND.JPG

P_communis_m_5_05_2006_ND.JPG — (186.59к)

Likes: 2

23.02.2010 3:07, Kharkovbut

Pyrgus oileus male, 1/I/2009, Dade Co, FL, USA

Pictures:
picture: P._oileus__m___1_01_2009__FL__Navy_Wells_PP.JPG

P._oileus__m___1_01_2009__FL__Navy_Wells_PP.JPG — (163.78к)

Likes: 2

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