Hesperiidae

Photo of the alveus caterpillar from the website:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/silvonen/lnel/pap/Pyralveu.htm

This post was edited by bora - 23.02.2010 07: 14

Pictures:

alveus1.jpg — (74.12к)

Has it already been removed? I.e. how well-tested is armoricanus?

A series of caterpillars was collected, and two of them reached the imago (one of them is in the photo below). I didn't cook the butterflies myself.
In the collection point (east of the Kerch Peninsula) for several past years of observations, not a single pyrgus (no!) it was not met. On the Azov coast, Pyrgus armoricanus is common in similar biotopes, and Pyrgus malvae and Pyrgus sidae are rare. In the center of the Kerch Peninsula, Sergei Trotsenko found Pyrgus serratulae.

In the collection point (east of the Kerch Peninsula) for several past years of observations, not a single pyrgus (no!) it was not met. On the Azov coast, Pyrgus armoricanus is common in similar biotopes, and Pyrgus malvae and Pyrgus sidae are rare. In the center of the Kerch Peninsula, Sergei Trotsenko found Pyrgus serratulae.

This specimen was caught by Ivy - he found it, I cooked it. As for my campaign with Arthur in the vicinity of Leninsky, indeed, there was not a single pyrgus... It was the very beginning of May.

It was me.

Someone recently wrote that alveus is an invention of taxonomists?

Well, I don't know. A strange suggestion. These species have been studied by many experts (Alverti, de Jong, Higgins, Kudrna, de Prins and Pourten, Jaksic (or whatever you call this Serb who made a wonderful atlas of genitals)...) and no one thought to doubt them. Everyone drew or shot genitals and cooked them in many copies...
Personally, I can see the differences in the genital images (between the first and the next three), and they seem quite good to me. Perhaps it is really worth another cook to make sure and understand where the variability is, and where it is worth looking with emphasis. In pyrgus, the basal process of the garpa (i.e., the lower part of the so-called stylifel) primarily works well (it is relatively weakly variable). Perhaps you should also pay attention to the bristles of the apical process of the garpa. At one time, I thought that alveus & jupei did not have them, but the rest of the Russian species of the group did. It would be good to check. You may be wrong. For illustration, I attach table 5 from my book. "The butterflies of Russia: classification, genitalia, keys for identification". By the way, the book is still available. You can order from me. The price is the same (450 rubles), + shipment (about 100 rubles, weight is more than kg).

Pictures:

Tab_05.jpg — (160.41к)


Tab_05a.jpg — (193.6к)

Barko asked for help with literature on thickheads. I will now post in Scans of Entomological Books a taxonomic revision of the Alveus group from Greece to Western China with descriptions of two new species from Turkey (Prins & Poorten, 1995). Please tell me if anyone has seen De Jong's publications online. I really don't want to do any extra copying work.

And here is how the basal process of the stylifera works in the Pyrgus centaurea group:

Pictures:

Tab_04.jpg — (146.03к)


Tab_04a.jpg — (130.31к)

Barko asked for help with literature on thickheads. I will now post in Scans of Entomological Books a taxonomic revision of the Alveus group from Greece to Western China with descriptions of two new species from Turkey (Prins & Poorten, 1995). Please tell me if anyone has seen De Jong's publications online. I really don't want to do any extra copying work.

I sent you an email with what I have de Yenga. Just a few articles.

Please tell me if anyone has seen De Jong's publications online. I really don't want to do any extra copying work.

Here you can find something:

http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/

A series of caterpillars was collected, and two of them reached the imago (one of them is in the photo below). I didn't cook the butterflies myself.

I'd like to cook it... to clear your conscience.

And where is this "photo below"?

I'd like to cook it... to clear your conscience.

And where is this "photo below"?

"boil it?"... But I don't have the slightest reason to assume the presence of Alveus in the Crimea. That's as soon as the grounds appear....

- URL #223, photo located at the bottom. A rider emerged from the upper track, as far as I can remember now.

Perhaps you should also pay attention to the bristles of the apical process of the garpa. At one time, I thought that alveus & jupei did not have them, but the rest of the Russian species of the group did. It would be good to check.

Garpa armoricanus - no setae.

Pictures:

armoricanus_гарпа.jpg — (342.44к)

Perhaps it is really worth another cook to make sure and understand where the variability is, and where it is worth looking with emphasis.

Here's more alveus and expanding the boundaries of mutability

Pictures:

alveus_male_2.jpg — (228.49к)


Pyrgus_spp.2.jpg — (96.48 k)

"boil it?"... But I don't have the slightest reason to assume the presence of Alveus in the Crimea. That's as soon as the grounds appear....

But I don't mean that there "alveus" can arise (whatever it is - "alveus" - means ). It's just that since such a reference specimen has already appeared - and the caterpillar has been photographed, and the pupa, probably, too - then it would be necessary for the imago-this particular specimen! - explore comprehensively. I'd cook it if I were you."

- URL #223, photo located at the bottom.

I was the one who stepped in - I thought you wanted to post a photo of imago, but I forgot...

It's just that since such a reference specimen has already appeared - and the caterpillar has been photographed, and the pupa, probably, too - then it would be necessary for the imago-this particular specimen! - explore comprehensively. I'd cook it if I were you."

Yes, as if the study of the Crimean armoricanus is beyond my interests. In any case, there were two pupae, and I do not know which of the two released butterflies corresponds to the caterpillar in that photo.

Yes, as if the study of the Crimean armoricanus is beyond my interests.

Eh... sorry.

Here, for example, I was told by Kharkiv residents that in the old days people were interested in the question of who lives in our Kharkiv region, and decided it: Alveus lives. I don't know how it was decided, but history is silent... But what did it actually turn out to be?

This is just me, I don't have enough time myself, I don't have time to do everything that follows... But if anything happens, I can cook someone on occasion.

Here, for example, I was told by Kharkiv residents that in the old days people were interested in the question of who lives in our Kharkiv region, and decided it: Alveus lives. I don't know how it was decided, but history is silent... But what did it actually turn out to be?

It is not a question of time, but of the fact that I have no reason to doubt that all Crimean Armoricanus are a single species. They look identical, the biotopes are the same, the specimens brewed by me and my colleagues turned out to be armoricanus.
Yes, and flying around a lot of much more interesting animals Here, last season there were two fires, new to the fauna of Europe... And I don't count the species that are new to the Crimea for a long time

It is not a question of time, but of the fact that I have no reason to doubt that all Crimean Armoricanus are a single species. They look identical, the biotopes are the same, the specimens brewed by me and my colleagues turned out to be armoricanus.

OK...

It is not a question of time, but of the fact that I have no reason to doubt that all Crimean Armoricanus are a single species. They look identical, the biotopes are the same, the specimens brewed by me and my colleagues turned out to be armoricanus.

That is, there is no reason to doubt that there is no alveus in the Crimea, and Nekrutenko, Chikolovets, Ivy, etc. are you wrong in your monographs?.. Then just do not put an end to it, but rather formulate and publish it. I can ask Vadym Chikolovets to check the copies of the collection of ZM of the Kiev University. Surely there are some "alveus" from the Crimea. It should be in place by now.
For my part, I can still cook my Armenian alveus & armoricanius, who met together, and not only.

That is, there is no reason to doubt that there is no alveus in the Crimea, and Nekrutenko, Chikolovets, Ivy, etc. are you wrong in your monographs?..

Nekrutenko's" Lepidoptera of the Crimea " is compiling other people's (obviously erroneous) data. No original data is provided.
At the expense of reliability of data of Chikolovets already Ivy spoke out.
At the expense of I. G. Plyushch - and what kind of monograph?

In general, you can bring one or another type for the Crimea as much as you want, but as they say, how many times do not say "halva", and your mouth will not be sweet. IMHO, real habitat points should be given, and not someone else's mistakes should be copied endlessly. And the actual populations are not known. And even if there is an alveus with a Crimean label somewhere, it doesn't mean anything until it is caught in the Crimea. This isn't a once-in-a-hundred-year Yasius. Alveus if there is, then there is. And you can write any label, the paper tolerates. Here in Germany there are Z. cynarae with Crimean labels, but who saw them in the Crimea? K. A. Efetov has been searching unsuccessfully for many years ...
Right now, a colleague has brought it for the Crimea Polygonia egea and as many as two specimens. Limenitis reducta. What does this mean?

But this Ivy under Alveus article doesn't say a word about Crimea. But on his (together with Morgun, Dovgailo, Rubin, Solodovnikov) disk (2005-2008) in the Southern Crimea, specific points on the map for Alveus. You can also ask, write... I have an address.

Here and Kudrna in " The Distribution Atlas of European Butterflies "(2002) for the Crimea specific points for both Alveus and armoricanus. Among the likely suppliers of this information is "Efetov, Dr. Konstantin A."mentioned there

But this Ivy under Alveus article doesn't say a word about Crimea. But on his (together with Morgun, Dovgailo, Rubin, Solodovnikov) disk (2005-2008) in the Southern Crimea, specific points on the map for Alveus. You can also ask, write... I have an address.

- This article describes the general level of reliability of information in the book of Mr. Chikolovets.
- Unfortunately, there are many different errors on this disk, although the disk is certainly good. As for the points on the map of Alveus-yes, there are points, but Alveus is not. You can also look at the map of A. damocles - the Kerch Peninsula is painted over, where it has not been since birth. And even the dot is located near Kerch. That is, there is no certainty in this case. And this is about a well-defined appearance! What can we say about Alveus, who has been mixed with armoricanus all his life? Here, by the way, on the maps of both Alveus and armoricanus, the points are approximately the same.

Here and Kudrna in " The Distribution Atlas of European Butterflies "(2002) for the Crimea specific points for both Alveus and armoricanus. Among the likely suppliers of this information is the "Efetov, Dr. Konstantin A." mentioned there.

The supplier is a probable one, according to your own statement. But it is really obvious that someone else's erroneous data was copied again. As for K. A. Efetov, I didn't talk to him specifically about alveus, but I did talk about his findings of another pyrgus - so, I quote from memory: "I'm not completely sure about the definition, because I didn't study them on the genitals."

For my part, I can still cook my Armenian alveus & armoricanius, who met together, and not only.

Why do you think they were two species that flew together if the genitals weren't examined? IMHO, it is based on the results of the study that you can draw some conclusions.

According to de Jong, alveus and armoricanus are extremely rare together.

Let's just say: "initially defined as two types", and now there is a desire to raise this material again. As far as I remember, " alveus "flew on Aragats above, in meadow steppes and meadows, "armoricanus" - in lower dry steppes, and in the area of 1800-2000 they were recorded together. And this docking point is the most interesting in terms of comparing butterflies. It's just a pity that the rich material on "alveus" collected by my friend, who constantly collects in Armenia, has all sold out. This question would have come up earlier.
And it is really strange that no one has counted the chromosomes of armoricanus so far...

"alveus "flew higher on Aragats, in meadow steppes and meadows, "armoricanus" - in lower dry steppes, and in the area of 1800-2000 they were recorded together.

Very well combined with the latitudinal distribution. I cooked butterflies from the Penza region, where alveus is common, in the Rostov region I found only one place (very relict - about 90 species of bulavous per 5 sq. km.) and only 2 alveus for 8 years of survey of this territory, armoricanus is common in this place. South of Alveus to the Caucasus itself, I have never found it in 30 years of research, only armoricanus.

This post was edited by bora - 02/25/2010 10: 33

Wow, what a boiling discussion on a question that has been of interest to me for a long time!!!

Yes, I confirm that tolko alveus has been found on the territory of the Penza region so far! And it is not rare-the population is certainly not very large, but it is widespread. Last year, in the south, I came across one very similar in appearance to armoricanus tolstogolovka, but, I look at it like that cat and I'm afraid to cook it (or rather, I'm afraid to spoil it - and suddenly it won't work...). In the Ulyanovsk region, E. Artemyeva announced the discovery of armoricanus on the right bank of the Volga, but, did she cook sexual device unknown (very likely not)!?? In Chuvashia, Albert Lastukhin's species is definitely unknown! In the Tula region Bolshakov found. Probably the middle belt (forest-steppe) is this the north-eastern border of its distribution in Eastern Europe?? Does this species exist in Bashkiria - or rather, is it confirmed by genitals ???

I started cooking Armenian pyrgus and immediately came across
Pyrgus cirsii (Rambur, 1839),
and from two points at once! Similar? I've never encountered this species before. Apparently a late butterfly flying in August.
Has anyone heard about the finds in Transcaucasia? There are 9 locations in Eastern Turkey...

Pictures:

Pyrgus_cirsii_0140.JPG — (136.59к)


Pyrgus_cirsii_unds.JPG — (119.03к)

I started cooking Armenian pyrgus and immediately came across
Pyrgus cirsii (Rambur, 1839),

I would also like to add genitals here, for the sake of completeness of the collection...

[...]
It's just a pity that the abundant material on "alveus" collected by my friend, who constantly collects in Armenia, has all sold out.
[...]

Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Come on, interested forumchane, continue to tryndit about the compatibility of entomology and commerce!

Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Come on, interested forumchane, continue to tryndit about the compatibility of entomology and commerce!

Poorly formulated. I don't do commerce. This is not my material. And my friend isn't an entomologist. But I think I would be able to use some of this material for my work...

Pavel, I'm not for you!
I formulated everything correctly

I would also like to add genitals here, for the sake of completeness of the collection...  

Well, you nafig! I'm working here, and you're laughing and asking me to show you your genitals... I'd better go to bed and see my wife. Tomorrow genitals, with Armenian alveuses...

I would also like to add genitals here, for the sake of completeness of the collection...  

Here they are:

This is definitely cirsii. Fullness corresponds to images and distribution recommendations:


This post was edited by PG18-26.02.2010 09: 20

Now on the topic of alveus-group, which, by the way, thanks for P. cirsii...
I cooked about two dozen of them from different places in Armenia, about half of them from Aragats.
If you start from the top, then at the very top of Mount Aragats (above 2900 m), in alpine meadows, small alveuses fly with vanishingly small, dotted white spots on top of the front wings, a relatively dark background of the underside of the wings. They have valvae with a huge cucculus, which occupies more than half the area of the valva; the stylifer (basal process of the garpa) is wide and short, jagged not at the top, but along the entire POSTERIOR edge. The genitals are large.

These butterflies were described from Kazbek as Pyrgus jupei (Alberti, 1967) and are distributed in the highlands of the Caucasus, Transcaucasia, Turkey, and Northern Iran.

Lower, at 2100-1700 m on Aragats, more often in the meadow steppes, came across (infrequently) quite normal alveuses, similar to our [Central European, Uralic] ones, with an ochre background of the underparts of the Western cr., and with the structure of the valva characteristic of alveus. In the areas of Tsakhkadzor and Aparan (25-50 kilometers east of Aragats and much wetter), butterflies with alveus genitals (in other words, alveuses) are found in a wider altitude range, including much lower, from 1500 m, but in forest meadows.

At altitudes of 2000-2200 m, in the Aragats village area surrounded by stony steppes, butterflies with armorican genitals are already more numerous (than alveus). I have not yet seen any clear distinguishing features from the Alveus wing pattern. These butterflies are very variable, on average smaller, on the hind wings the background of the underparts is on average darker and mottled, in many cases it is cut with light veins, white spots are on average more compact. In addition to the characteristic differences in the shape of the cuculus and stylifer (both narrower), the genitals of armoricanus are always clearly smaller than the alveus ones, even with the same imago size.


In the vicinity of Yerevan, Meghri, in the Kasakh Gorge, at altitudes below 1500 m, only butterflies with armorican genitals are found. They develop here in two generations, flying in late May-June and July-August. Moreover, individuals of the first generation are more peculiar (with a darker and more variegated background of the underparts of the western cr. and more prominent light veins than they resemble large P. melotis ponticus) and are easier to distinguish from alveus (which is visible everywhere in one generation).

I don't want to impose my opinion, but everything suggests that alveus, armoricanus, and jupei are three real, individually variable species, and not climate - related variability ...the genitals.

This post was edited by PG18-02/27/2010 05: 25

That's nice! And then from the constant information in synonyms cheekbones reduces. In principle, the same differences in genitalia are observed in the lowland alveus / armoricanus. Now I would like to carefully consider the small transitional forms and understand their specific affiliation.

This post was edited by bora - 26.02.2010 12: 40

Yes, Vadim Chikolovits did nothing to help. From his letter:
"...Yes, I'm back, but
I have to fly to Budapest for another week on Tuesday.
Alveuses from the Crimea were checked by Yu Nekrutenko, so I have no doubt. In
the ZMKU collection, thickheads are very poorly represented,
and for some reason L. A. Shelyuzhko did not like them. It seems there was no Alveus from
the Crimea. But they were also repeatedly cited for the Crimea by Yuri Budashkin.
Unfortunately,I didn't collect this species in Crimea... "

Alveuses from the Crimea were checked by Yu Nekrutenko, so I have no doubt. ......

If only some researchers had more doubts, they would probably have fewer mistakes.

about a month ago, I wrote to Plyushch about the alveus point in the Luhansk region-on the CD Plyushch, Morgun, etc. it is, in the article on the book of Chikolovets it is indicated that the view is not in the area, in general, to sort out the confusion. As a result, it turned out that they were not cooked. And of the cooked ones, "only a few guaranteed (checked for genitals) finds are still from Ukraine, mainly from the West."

on his (together with Morgun, Dovgailo, Rubin, Solodovnikov) disk (2005-2008) in the Southern Crimea, specific points on the map for Alveus.

about a month ago, I wrote to Plyushch about the alveus point in the Luhansk region-on the CD Plyushch, Morgun, etc. it is,..... As a result, it turned out that they were not cooked.

Obviously, the situation is the same for Crimea...