Hesperiidae

I started cooking Armenian pyrgus and immediately came across
Pyrgus cirsii (Rambur, 1839),
and from two points at once! Similar? I've never encountered this species before. Apparently a late butterfly flying in August.
Has anyone heard about the finds in Transcaucasia? There are 9 locations in Eastern Turkey...

Congratulations, this is a classic cirsii! A very interesting disjunction of the range of this species - it also seems to have been found in the Balkans, but there are no new finds.

To be honest, I haven't really looked at this topic...
То Zdravko:
Is URL #27 under number 8 really armoricanus?

To be honest, I haven't really looked at this topic...
Then Zdravko:
Is there really an armoricanus in URL B27 at number 8?

At least very similar to armoricanus...

At least very similar to armoricanus...

I haven't seen any armorikanuses from the Urals! I'd like to cook it...

By the way, are the reports of Muschampia cribrellum found in Crimea reliable? Nekrutenko doesn't have it, Efetov doesn't have it, but Chikolovets and Plyushch have it...

I asked I. G. Plyushch about this issue. Here is his response:
"M. cribrellum-there is a specimen from Karabi-Yayla (5.06.1957; collected by Lisetsky). I saw this copy during his lifetime in Kharkov. Now it should be in the collection of the Museum of Nature in Kharkiv. I don't have any other data on Crimea"
Personally, I haven't really explored Karabi. However, taking into account that in that area there are some plants that are not found anywhere else in the Crimea, and also almost only there (the plateau edges and adjacent territories) the Crimean Lycaena virgaureae is found, I conclude that the area has some unique natural conditions and I can assume that M. cribrellum may actually be present there. The lack of other finds may be due to the inaccessibility and, as a result, the lack of popularity of this karst plateau among entomologists. However, in my opinion, the presence of M. cribrellum there is still a very big question. It seems to me much more likely that this is a labeling error or an error in determining (aberrant instance?) M. tessellum. Within the Crimea, the latter species lives exclusively on yayla, occurs sparsely, locally, is not known from Karabi (although it should obviously be there), the nearest place of discovery is yayla Severnaya Demerdzhi.

I ask for help in finding the best option for dissecting female thickheads. This is my first dissection of a female Rhopalocera
A trial version is P. malva. I don't care about the image quality yet. I will solve the problem of photographing in the near future.

I will be grateful for any comments, suggestions and comments.

tessellum-yes.
cribrellum in the area, as far as I know, has not yet been caught.
I'll send the sample to your personal account later.
In winter, you will have to cook.

And what is the general situation with cribrellum in Ukraine and in the steppes of the European part of the former USSR? Here the Crimean point, it turns out, is in doubt. According to the book about the day butterflies of Ukraine, it turns out that the rest of the finds, or most of them, are old. We just sent an article to Nota lepidopterologica about cribrellum on the Balkan Peninsula and in Romania - in this area, due to new finds in Serbia, Macedonia and especially Bulgaria, we already have more points than on the Ivy disk and companies are listed for the steppes of the European part of the former USSR...

Interestingly, tessellum is wildly rare in Bulgaria, while cribrellum is quite common in one area. In Ukraine and European Russia, it turns out the opposite?

And another question - what is the basis for data on the forage plant of cribrellum (Potentilla)? Is there a reliable observation published somewhere? At least I didn't find anything like it. And all other Muschampia species, for which there are reliable data, eat only Phlomis - of course, there may be extravagant exceptions, like Pyrgus (for example, andromedae), but still...

Here, to support the most interesting topic, is a portrait of the Bulgarian cribrellum:

This post was edited by Zed-04.03.2010 15: 36

Pictures:

Muschampia_cribrellum_1.jpg — (40.93к)

  
And here is this pyrgus from a height of 3900 m, from the very top of Aragats. Shoddy of course, but still who, in your opinion? August 8, 2005

I can't say it's a strange specimen. And so, in general, pulls even on Pyrgus aladaghensis ... There were a lot of them there?

What's the situation with cribrellum anyway ?.. in the steppes of the European part of the former USSR?
Interestingly, tessellum is wildly rare in Bulgaria, while cribrellum is quite common in one area. In Ukraine and European Russia, it turns out the opposite?

Photo of cribrellum from the steppes of the European part of the former USSR (Rostov region, Belokalitvensky district) I have already given URL #122 in the post. In May and early June, cribrellum is quite common there, about the same as tessellum.

It's funny, but why did you take Zed that the Ivy and K * disk for steppes and FOREST-STEPPES displays ALL the KNOWN points of finds of cribrellum in the territory of the European part of Russia!?? This is a purely private project and a lot of things are not there at all.

It's funny, but why did you take Zed that the Ivy and K * disk for steppes and FOREST-STEPPES displays ALL the KNOWN points of finds of cribrellum in the territory of the European part of Russia!?? This is a purely private project and a lot of things are not there at all.

As I understand it, such works contain published data and copies. available to authors and defined by them. Everyone understands that you can't poll all collectors, but if you do, what kind of data will you get!? This forum page is particularly visible.

It's funny, but why did you take Zed that the Ivy and K * disk for steppes and FOREST-STEPPES displays ALL the KNOWN points of finds of cribrellum in the territory of the European part of Russia!?? This is a purely private project and a lot of things are not there at all.

And I didn't think that all the known ones were there - but I believe that at least all the published finds (ili?) were there by that time. Because of this, I wrote down what source of information I have (I have the only one, by the way, where the point maps for this area are).
Anyway, I was interested in comparing the cribrellum and tessellum maps - the second one has a much larger point density.

I haven't seen any armorikanuses from the Urals! I'd like to cook it...

I agree, it's worth cooking.

As a result of the discussion here, I doubted something in my plans, please clarify.
Dagestan, Termenlik, 28.06.88, thought it was Alveus

As a result of the discussion here, I doubted something in my plans, please clarify.
Dagestan, Termenlik, 28.06.88, thought it was Alveus

It is necessary to cook...

Summary: in such dubious cases, it would be good not to draw a conclusion from one instance at a time... it would be nice to have a series. And then genitals with a wing pattern like those swan, cancer and pike... IMHO...

Returning to the topic of female genitalia: I still found a second female (2 copies in the photo) on old mattresses: the same point, the same day, stood out among all the sizes. The genitals were the same, and the habitus was the same, except that "the costal edge (of the hindwing) is white" and "the marginal edge is without a clear light band of the same width."
Now I don't know who's lying at all: Lvovsky's book/Blink or my eyes.
Does anyone have any opinions?
And who is instance # 3?

This post was edited by bora - 07.03.2010 09: 09

Pictures:

Pyrgus_female.jpg — (296.72к)


female.jpg — (245.57к)

1,2 on Lvovsky and Morgun typical alveus.
3. similar to armoricanus, but painfully short apophyses (longer in the book)

The 3rd specimen can not be armoricanus, because I specially took a butterfly from Udmurtia.
In addition, if you believe the books, armoricanus has no sclerotization on the post-and antevaginal plates, and alveus has 2 round areas of sclerotization. The serratula should have a square area of sclerotization, as in ex. 3, which, however, does not draw along the habit of the serratula (if we take into account the previous remarks).

This post was edited by bora-07.03.2010 09: 25

I took Lvovsky to the gym.

Alveus, armoricanus, seratule.

I took Lvovsky to the gym.
Alveus, armoricanus, seratule.

And I'm talking about the same thing, where are the genitals, and where is the morphology?

This post was edited by bora - 07.03.2010 09: 53

P. armoricanus female for the kit. There are no sclerotizations at all.

This post was edited by bora - 07.03.2010 10: 53

Pictures:

armoricanus_female.jpg — (263.46к)


armoricanus.jpg — (69.08к)

I ask for help in finding the best option for dissecting female thickheads. This is my first dissection of a female Rhopalocera
A trial version is P. malva. I don't care about the image quality yet. I will solve the problem of photographing in the near future.

I will be grateful for any comments, suggestions and comments.

[attachmentid()=83655]

I traditionally use a weak solution of Evans Blue dye. it turns out quite well. Soft coloring. The main thing is to dilute the paint very much.

I found two Pyrgus serratulae females in my collections.

Yalta Yayla, Lapata, June 23, 2008



Simferopol district, Krasnolesye village, Kosh-Kaya, June 27, 2008



Images from Yu. P. Nekrutenko "Bulavous lepidoptera of the Crimea"

Returning to the topic of female genitalia: I still found a second female (2 copies in the photo) on old mattresses: the same point, the same day, stood out among all the sizes. The genitals were the same, and the habitus was the same, except that "the costal edge (of the hindwing) is white" and "the marginal edge is without a clear light band of the same width."
Now I don't know who's lying at all: Lvovsky's book/Blink or my eyes.
Does anyone have any opinions?
And who is instance # 3?

My opinion - 1 and 2-serratula.
"marginal edge without a clear light band" - in Crimean serratula, the band can be expressed in various degrees-from almost complete absence to very bright and wide.
I don't know who number 3 is.

Also, according to the books

I don't really believe in books anymore. Especially after yesterday stories with Murzin's book and Spilosoma urticae.

I found two Pyrgus serratulae females in my collections.

Do you have two separate areas of sclerosis in your preparations, or one continuous one? It's not very visible...

My opinion - 1 and 2-serratula.

I am concerned that one male alveus and two female serratulae were caught in the same place on the same day.

Of course, the male is fresh, the females are broken, but still, still... My (very modest) experience with our Pyrgus (4 species) is as follows: species more than two are not collected, and if two, then one of them is malve.

This post was edited by Kharkovbut - 07.03.2010 19: 35

De Jong (1972) found the following about female genitalia:

Species of the alveus group "do not have a pronounced genital plate; a maximum of two sclerotized postvaginal areas".

Species of the group of " unclear origin "(which includes serratula) "have a genital plate; the latter is completely immersed in the membrane, and not free, as in Scelotrix").

This post was edited by Kharkovbut - 07.03.2010 19: 46

I am concerned that one male alveus and two female serratulae were caught in the same place on the same day.
still, still...

I mean, was I politely caught here?

Here's a mattress. Empty spots - 2 fatheads were removed immediately after the catch, 1-today. How many species are there?

Pictures:

IMG_2954.jpg — (442.21к)

De Jong (1972) found the following about female genitalia:

Species of the alveus group "do not have a pronounced genital plate; a maximum of two sclerotized postvaginal areas".

Species of the group of " unclear origin "(which includes serratula) "have a genital plate; the latter is completely immersed in the membrane, and not free, as in Scelotrix").

Very unclear diagnosis. What membrane is the genital plate embedded in, and which one is post - or ante?

I mean, was I politely caught here?

Boris, you misunderstood me, I didn't mean that at all!

I only meant that-IMHO - it is most likely that all three instances are one view.

Very unclear diagnosis. What membrane is the genital plate embedded in, and which one is post - or ante?

Exactly. Unfortunately, there are no drawings. Nothing specific is said about the genitals of serratula either (only as part of the group of species).

Do you have two separate areas of sclerosis in your preparations, or one continuous one? It's not very visible...

Here's how the photo shows - so it is. Ie, the site is one, but in the middle of the sclerotization is weaker, ie, the site is one, but as if from two halves.

I am concerned that one male alveus and two female serratulae were caught in the same place on the same day.

I agree with that. Odako, who knows these Alveuses, unfortunately I'm not familiar with them at all.

I meant ... that-IMHO - it is most likely that all three instances are one view.

The only question is: which one? The male is defined unambiguously as alveus, females - the opinion of the people that serratula.
In addition, on the mattress - mallow, seratulla and armoricanus (the latter in the enlarged photo). Well, two Muschampia.

Pictures:

IMG_2954_2.jpg — (357.62к)

I examined Malvais and Muschampias... But these two, you didn't cook them? Maybe they're worth it, too... throw it into the crucible of science? They're males, right?"

For my part, I will try to cook our female serratulae (they flew together with the males I cooked, I previously exhibited them; there were no other species nearby except for malve)... but it will turn out only in a month, because the owner of the material is now away.

This post was edited by Kharkovbut-07.03.2010 20: 40

I examined Malvais and Muschampias... But these two, you didn't cook them? Maybe they're worth it, too... throw it into the crucible of science?   They're males, right?"

It looks like males. No, I didn't cook them (I just took a picture of the mattress). Tomorrow, probably, I'll throw it in the furnace.
Still, I wonder what kind of specimen it is. #3 in the morning photo, post URL # 326.
It's just a pity that there are no data on the genanalysis of European pyrgus, or they were not submitted to the genebank. This could greatly clarify the picture.

This post was edited by bora - 07.03.2010 20: 30

One of the methods of collecting thickheads (in hot weather! And not only in steppe and settled places) this is a patient trapping at the "watering hole" - the best place where cattle are watered at the springs. Here you can not only see several species at a time - but also more than a dozen specimens!
I will never forget the picture of a hot afternoon (late June, early 90s), when our old university bus (I was still a student at that time and barely begged our botany teachers to take me to their field practice with jellies in one of the protected areas) crossed the Khopyor River (in the upper reaches) into the ford. I almost jumped out of the window when I saw several dozen" gray " fatheads of various sizes and colors (but larger than the lesser malva!). To all my demands and pleas to stop and wait for me "just a little bit", our nerds responded with a sullen silence, and the driver - here is a rise and I will not slow down...

Judging by the light veins-yes.

...Tomorrow, probably, I'll throw it in the furnace.

The diagnosis was confirmed: males seratulle and armoricanus.

A real Pyrgus alveus from Ukraine!
Collection of the Nature Museum of Kharkiv National University.

Pictures:

P._alveus__m___Novograd_Volynski.jpg — (102.19к)


P._alveus__m___Novograd_Volynski__UPP.jpg — (142.01 k)


P._alveus__m___Novograd_Volynski__UND.jpg — (148.58 k)

Does the label say "female"?

Yes. But if you see the inscription "female" on the male's cage-do not believe your eyes!