The Red Book and insects

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05.10.2011 12:47, botanque

And why not? I don't personally specialize in beetles, so I don't know about his findings. But as you know, the range of Hydrophilus piceus is confined to forest-steppe and steppe zones. There is a forest-steppe zone in Tatarstan.

You should not refer to the green determinant. Apparently, this confusion with the definition of Hydrophilus species began with him. All reliable finds of pitseus were made much further south, in the latitudes of the Volgograd region. There is no reliable data from the Samara region, although there are many much less expected finds.
And honestly, it is strange to see in a serious publication references to such books as the Illustrated Encyclopedia of Insects by Stanek and The World of Animals by Akimushkin here and here

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06.12.2011 20:22, Hierophis

No, I'm just learning

The subject of discussion of the kpo ca to me is this
: The CC contains direct bans on trapping, including insects, this is supported by all sorts of regulations and other garbage, which nevertheless obliges you to comply with these bans if you are a law-abiding citizen.
However..
... biologists, including collectors, or vice versa, say that trapping actually has little weight in this whole problem, and accordingly, such prohibitions will not help the case, they say, you need to protect biotopes-do not plow there, do not build anything(you need to eat less and eat less to breed a certain kind of mammal, in fact-but!!! this is inhumane!!!), and then everything will be fine.
And catch-catch, yes, you can. And sometimes you even need to, otherwise the population will die out, and nothing will remain but a note in the CC, and so-something will remain.

That's how I understand this "item".
But in fact, everything is decided by quantity, there are few collectors, but if half the country wants to collect collections, let's imagine that 50 million people wanted to have the simplest collection, with whiteflies and nymphalids, interseno, what will happen?
In general, it would be really interesting to see what will be

06.12.2011 20:33, Victor Titov

No, I'm just learning
The subject of discussion of the kpo ca to me is this
: The CC contains direct bans on trapping, including insects, this is supported by all sorts of regulations and other garbage, which nevertheless obliges you to comply with these bans if you are a law-abiding citizen.
However..
... biologists, including collectors, or vice versa, say that trapping actually has little weight in this whole problem, and accordingly, such prohibitions will not help the case, they say, you need to protect biotopes-do not plow there, do not build anything(you need to eat less and eat less to breed a certain kind of mammal, in fact-but!!! this is inhumane!!!), and then everything will be fine.
And catch-catch, yes, you can. And sometimes you even need to, otherwise the population will die out, and nothing will remain but a note in the CC, and so-something will remain.

That's how I understand this "item".
But in fact, everything is decided by quantity, there are few collectors, but if half the country wants to collect collections, let's imagine that 50 million people wanted to have the simplest collection, with whiteflies and nymphalids, interseno, what will happen?
In general, it would be really interesting to see what will happen

Read the topic from beginning to end. You will find answers to your questions. I'm sorry, but I don't think any further conversation is going to work.

06.12.2011 20:52, Hierophis

There are no answers there.
And the conversation personally seems to me not so much more empty, but rather inconvenient for some opponents.

It is more convenient, of course, to come up with an excuse and justify it, including through collectivism. I prefer honesty, first of all with myself, and when expressing my opinion, I promote this point of view in a certain way - I think it has a right to be, and it has been here for more than one year, well, at least if we take the "old days" when "the trees were big"here

That is, my opinion is that catching at least a series of objectively rare species for compiling individual collections, on which no scientific papers are expected, is most likely not worth it. And even more so, you should not catch for the sake of selling. But alas, a sense of possession and gain..

07.12.2011 14:25, Victor Titov

There are no answers there.

There is. If you didn't find them, it means that you didn't read them carefully or thoughtfully.

And the conversation personally seems to me not so much more empty, but rather inconvenient for some opponents.

Why uncomfortable? I just don't want to repeat myself when everything has already been said about the issues you raise.

That is, my opinion is that catching at least a series of objectively rare species for compiling individual collections, on which no scientific papers are expected, is most likely not worth it. And even more so, you should not catch for the sake of selling. But alas, a sense of possession and gain..

There is such an opinion. And not just for you. And there is the opposite. If you have read the entire topic, then you should also know the arguments expressed in support of this opposite opinion of yours. I will only note that when prohibiting the trapping of insects by collectors, one should be consistent: then it is necessary to prohibit the protection of highways (and close the existing ones) - did you pay attention to how many insects die on radiator grilles, windshields, lying on the roadsides? Yes, what is there - to ban all economic activity to hell! Introduce criminal liability from a young age for killing insects, especially caterpillars (impudent toddlers, crush "worms" wherever they get!). And then, you see, for the sake of the comfortable survival of one species, Homo sapiens threatens the existence of all others.

PS
Read the article posted by Pleco, made the following conclusions:
2) Regional QCs may soon appear(if there is a precedent).

And what makes you think that there are no regional CC's now? Yes, a dime a dozen! After all, you haven't read the whole topic yet! Or can't you read?

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 07.12.2011 14: 28

07.12.2011 17:45, Hierophis

"What makes you think that there are no regional CC's now?"

*Because we don't have any regional control centers in Ukraine.

"There is. If you didn't find them, it means that you didn't read them carefully or thoughtfully."

* Answers to my question about what would have happened if 50mn. people on the territory of Russia would catch all the whiteflies and nymphalids for their collection one piece at a time. This is logical

"There is such an opinion....."

This is all sophistry, I also like it, but there are objective criteria-roads, economic activity - these are processes without which civilization in its current form cannot exist. Without trapping butterflies by collectors, civilization can exist.
Therefore, guided by the principle that even if the damage from the fact that it is objectively impossible to prohibit and is much greater than from catching rare species, then in order to do at least something, you can limit this very catch. Well, or oblige those who catch them to organize reintroduction programs - that is, they caught appolons there, created a culture based on them, bred caterpillars - released most of them into nature, and used a smaller part for commercial gain.

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07.12.2011 22:42, Bad Den

*Because we don't have any regional control centers in Ukraine.

* Answers to my question about what would have happened if 50mn. people on the territory of Russia would catch all the whiteflies and nymphalids for their collection one piece at a time. This is logical

In Dnepropetrovsk, it has already been released. In Donetsk, heavy training is underway.
These are official ones.
Almost every region has regional lists of protected plants and animals. This is in Ukraine.

And Roman still wonders why I consider him a troll ("in" and "in Ukraine", by the way)

* Answers to my question about what would have happened if 50mn. a person on the territory of Russia would be caught

If only my grandmother had...

This post was edited by Bad Den - 07.12.2011 22: 45

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07.12.2011 23:44, Hierophis

Well, yes, I wrote about this by the way in Botany, but if something, then this is not all

I probably participated in this forum since 2003, then there was no Classical Biology and Entomology at all, but it was very interesting to read the topics. Now I looked at those old pages - I was already nostalgic-what discussions there were, with what enthusiasm and sincerity, and now...

Now the forum is "no longer the same"

Most of us know each other personally, as a result of such openness as before is no longer there, everyone looks back at each other-like what they think about it, academic pomposity is some kind of thing, well, plus the growth of middle age with all the ensuing boo boo boo, in short, a little more and there will be a complete stagnation(they will write something like - this has all been discussed, and so on), and not only here

the current youth and students are mostly involved in all sorts of contacts and upyachkah, but if any of the newcomers appear and are active, then they immediately press with academic pathos, well, alcohol propaganda is everywhere, yes yes.

When I abandoned this forum at that time, I thought that I would mine that there were still 4 years left, and it would collapse. Well, two more years left, you need to see)))

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08.12.2011 2:16, А.Й.Элез

Answers to my question about what would happen if 50mn. people on the territory of Russia would catch all the whiteflies and nymphalids for their collection one piece at a time. This is logical
"There is such an opinion..... "
This is all sophistry...

Of course, this is logical, this answer (from 24.03.2009 07:07) I did not immediately find out myself today: it is now in the topic "Collecting insects in series". Please note that it is not something else, but the question you now put more than two and a half years ago, that was actually considered there as an example of sophistry. There may have been other answers somewhere, but I don't remember exactly now.

Topics are sometimes reshaped; sometimes participants forget, over months and years, which of the two topics that are very similar in content were once answered, although they remember exactly what answers were given. In general, " Collecting insects in series "(a branch that is not very long) is also recommended to your attention from the very beginning.

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08.12.2011 5:20, А.Й.Элез

So let's continue the topic - the use of the preposition " on " in relation to the continental state is usually used only in the case of describing an attack.

Not necessarily attacks; but, indeed, quite common. That's very usually what we will do. And in exceptions - to do as it should be in exceptions, and in relation to Ukraine, use " on " also in the prepositional case, and in the accusative not only when attacking. but also at the entrance. The Netherlands does not have the audacity to ask English-speaking nations the rules for their languages, does not require them to name all cities as they are usually supposed to in English, i.e. without the article, and tolerates when their Hague is called The Hague, because these are the norms of English (and not only) languages that are definitely not set in The Hague. Otherwise, they would have forbidden us to use their "Netherlands" in the plural, since one state (and in general, one object) is usually called in the singular in Russian.. I can explain the Netherlands ' calmness about the subtleties of other people's grammar only by their national self-respect, by the fact that both in relation to Russia and in relation to the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and the United States, taken together, the Netherlands, at least after falling away from the Spanish crown, does not suffer at all (I will not be here discuss whether it is justified or not) with a historical inferiority complex and a need for bouncing around.

The use of prepositions in the Russian language in relation to Ukraine ("on" instead of "in", "with" instead of "from") is etymologically connected not with the opposition of the island to the continent, but with the opposition of the outskirts to the middle; however, residents of even the outskirts of the Russian Federation are not offended and do not see anything humiliating and continental (anti-island) in use it is precisely prepositions when we say "on the outskirts", but "in the center "(even if the political and legal status of specific entities is equal). Etymology is generally one of the main reasons for the appearance of exceptions in the language. If it were not for the original "kofiy" ("coffee") for the Russian language, would some fool then have confirmed "coffee" in the masculine gender for the Russian language, when it is known that non-declinable words ending in "o" and "e" in Russian are usually listed in the neuter gender...

A one-time exchange of remarks on a related issue may be forgiven; I consider it unnecessary to discuss it further in this topic. Moreover, it usually takes much more text to explain an error than it does to explain itself.

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08.12.2011 18:38, Victor Titov

Hierophis, weren't you called Sealor in your previous life? So, it suddenly became interesting....

Ah yes, I about this incidentally in Botany wrote, only if that, then this still not all I on this Forum probably with 2003 participated

Well, what did I say? A clone is also a clone in Africa!

plus the growth of middle age with all the attendant boo boo boo

Now the forum is "no longer the same" Most of us know each other personally, as a result of such openness as before is no longer there, everyone looks back at each other-like the fact that how they think about it, academic pomposity of some kind...
... then there was no Classical Biology and Entomology at all, but there was a lot to read very interesting. Now I looked at those old pages - I was already nostalgic-what discussions there were, with what enthusiasm and sincerity, and now...

Isn't that boo boo boo? With all the consequences?

...I think that there are still 4 years left, and it will collapse. Well, there are still two years left, you need to see )))

You can't wait!!!

(and an alcohol ad went

up ).

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08.12.2011 18:44, Hierophis

A. Y. Elez, so, I read the specified topic, it's interesting. Well, I will not write much about the fact that not exactly the answers there that I was talking about

In order for this not to be sophistry, this should be done, examples about birds and the like are not suitable here.

In principle, we can say that trapping for collections has little effect on the dynamics of the number of species affected by this trapping. Well, unless if it does, then just like the flapping of a butterfly's wing affects the weather, by the way, about the weather, here some butterflies are caught, and then cyclones do not unwind at full power and strength, and as a result we freeze in winter ))))
So, trapping has little effect, well, except if there is a special situation, a small population, but it's not even about influence, but about being principled, well, at least adhering to the principle of "do no harm". After all, a mosquito bite also practically does not affect a person, but nevertheless they try to avoid it. So here, even if catching a series of red book species for a private collection is like a mosquito bite for the population, but still a bite, and not a good thing

I will not comment on the rest, I was essentially joking, and then it started, someone just sarcastic, and someone wrote a whole treatise )))

Well, finally, you would need to write that unfortunately the authorities have a real opportunity only to get used to a person with a net, to calm their conscience, this is something like what I wrote above - for a collector and a trapper, the calm of conscience is a teza like
*In principle, you can say this - catching for collections it has little effect on the dynamics of the number of species affected by this capture.*
for a state environmental official, the consolation of conscience will be catching a person with a net and putting all the heavy sorrows and deeds on him.

But huge territories continue to be urbanized, polluted, and plowed up, and this will continue, because everyone wants to eat, consume, and breed, including environmentalists and compilers of the CC.
If it is so difficult for many to refuse to catch a series or a red book species, then all the more so from all of the above ))))))

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