About tropics, merchants, and personal preferences

Entalex:

DISAF:

Hi!
I was repeatedly under arrest - border zones, borders...

if it weren't for guys like Vitya Sinyaev, Ron Brechlin, and Volodya Gurko, entomologists would have worked with insects collected in the parks of their native cities. More than 200 species, possibly more, have been described in Vitya collections. Brechlin also sat in Yunnan, Sulawesi. They produce unique material, which you (and I among others) crack in cozy entomological offices in Leipzig, Berlin or London and do our own science.
Sorry for the men. I'd like to give each of them a big handshake and drink to their frayed nerves.
And nature protection is the right thing to do, but not in cretinous ways.

I fully support you!
Even though it is illegal to catch and export insects, but somehow we need to do science! And the commercial side is justified. Work must be rewarded. And the work of a professional collector is colossal. First, you need to get to the country, and this is a considerable amount of money, often a long and grueling flight with jet lag.
Secondly, it is necessary to find a place of collecting, more precisely to find, pick up. To do this, you need to move (and it is good if you ride deer or porters) to the most inaccessible places, well isolated and not affected by human influence. But this is not a guarantee that the collector will be trampled here, and rarities in three layers will fill the screen or run under your feet in a multitude.
In tropical high-altitude conditions, the collector is more likely to chatter his teeth at night from the cold (and this is with high humidity), rather THAN drink rum and Cola near the bungalow under the light sound of the surf.
Third, you need to keep the material from the same humidity. After all, the expedition can last at least a month. (it's not 10 days at the resort).
Fourthly, you have to live in Spartan conditions: among humidity, cold at night, bloodsuckers flying and crawling, and so on, so on, so on. We have a separate topic on the forum about the human factor.
Fifth, the problem of removal, which threatens to face the collector at the finish line. It would seem that everything - check-in, luggage, Duty Free, Departure and "have a nice flight", but there are conscious (in this case, Peruvian) customs officers who find something to find fault with.
And on arrival home, there is no full guarantee against withdrawal of fees.

So, I see, some kind of demagogy has started again. The demagoguery is endless. It is already clear to everyone that those who shout about the law and legality prefer to "collect in the city park", but"away from picky eyes"
to Each his own.

And this is the situation: if a person was driving on the road through an unguarded area where Apollo flies, and Apollo got into the radiator, how should this be regarded?

  DISAF:

We are with you and Dmitrich, the most normal on this forum! Definitely! Don't even hesitate!

You quickly decided on the diagnosis of a good half of the forum!

My friends!
I was also in Peru, and also jittered at the export, took out the same KLM, and then to Kiev. And they took it in Bryansk. Russians. And Andrey Aniskovich helped me! This is solidarity. saved all my material. Many thanks to him!
So many boundaries. Kazastan is hard. Not so good with Mongolia. And those who have experienced it know it. And who goes to the park and catches there will not understand. I myself saw the condition of Anatoly Barkalov (sirfid specialist, Professor) which was snatched by Russian customs officers on the border of Kazakhstan and the Novosibirsk region. And many here write-apollons, ornithopters. With flies, a respected person was pulled.
And entomology, like any other field of activity, is also connected with money, of course. I bought a lot myself, sold a lot, and exchanged a lot. Hence the best collection beyond the Urals, and the best collection of Cossidae in the country-three times better in terms of representation than in ZINA.
We have to use different methods to get new material - and when I saw Gurko's new type of cossida from Pakistan at the Burzee in Munich, I told him directly about it. Give me a little thing - I'll describe it in your honor. All is well. And me. and Volodya. And Thomas Witt, who happened to have the holotype. And for those who catch at their dacha, I advise you to go to Pakistan and frolic there. And then write your impressions here.

Just do not do this: "I advise you to go, frolic" Go for what (why)? Describe the new view? A new type of beetle can also be described from a suburban dacha, as practice has shown. I, for example, have little interest in cossides. Therefore, I do not see an urgent need to frolic in Pakistan for myself yet. And if it comes back, I'll go. But I will not curse "these freaks-Pakistanis, stupid gentiles who robbed a good Russian guy who trembled and suffered for science". As well as elevate, if you are lucky, your act to the rank of a feat to save the world of science.

And, by the way, a new species of beetle from my own dacha will be much more interesting and expensive for me and for others than a new species from Pakistan. Because a new view from there is normal, and a new view from the park is a glaringly rare exception.

Yes, you're welcome. It's great and nice to find something new in your dacha.
It depends on what interests you.
You can, of course, consider the rest of them "rabid collectors who spit on the laws", while you can imagine yourself as a normal person who spends his whole life walking in the park waiting for something new to come across among the Carabus nemoralis.
Everyone determines the scope of interests and its width for themselves. Well, you are only interested in what crawls in your asphalted yard, or flies on the peaks of the Himalayas - just your own business. No one has the right to change your mind.
Well, I'm not interested in small beetles, which I don't always pay attention to (previously they were generally on the side).
Personally, I have an opinion that those who catch "in the yard and surroundings" are trying to prove to themselves and others that they are no worse than those who catch in Yunnan or Pakistan.
Is this an inferiority complex? please explain, but don't be offended.

And in the yard you can catch trouble. A dog will bite someone's ass, a car will throw mud at them

Obviously, this is a kind of patriotism, or something. How can you not know (badly know) what is walking under your feet? And in general in the country? At the same time, I proudly report "well, I don't collect..."-I also remember such people, and not experts exclusively on traffic lights, as you might think. Yes, if my health allows (the rest is not the reason), in April I will go further than my dacha, and I know why.

It's a strange argument. The law is a generally accepted moral norm that is mandatory for execution. Compliance with the law is a prerequisite for staying in any country. Whether you like it or not, you have to do it. Knowingly violated, caught - please answer.

And in general, the topic turns into a discussion on the topic "Which is better, to catch at home or abroad?"
These disputes will lead to nothing but bickering (or, let it be, flame) among the forum participants.
Everyone starts to prove that they are right. This is especially true for those participants whose interests extend to their own (and at best adjacent) region. Well, to each his own, I repeat. Everyone is free to choose according to their needs and capabilities. AFTER ALL, IT IS TRULY GREAT that small opportunities allow you to moderate your immediate needs.
Naturally, someone can afford both Peru and other hot countries. Do you think I went to Nepal so easily? So I just took tickets and flew to Primorye? I had to tighten my belts a little. Believe me, it was worth it.
Yes, someone can't because of financial difficulties, someone "life is stuck".
But people are chosen! Although I did not go to Nepal so well in entomological terms, I was able to convey at least a drop of the mood, the feelings that I received in Nepal. I didn't post photos with landscapes and insects to show off, but to share my emotions from a dream come true.
As a rule, a favorite business, a serious one, begins with a dream. Today - a suburban dacha, tomorrow-Tibet.
The only difference is that everyone has their own dream. And the tasks according to the dream are different.

And about compliance with the law-definitely, it is impossible to make full-fledged fees without bypassing one or another note of the local law. The local law enforcement officer, if he wants to, will find something to complain about.
I, for example, collect P. apollo, and P. mnemosine, and, as it so happens, I caught Camptoloma interiorata. The Red Book, however.

So, I don't care about the laws. For example, have you read the law on private collections?

And in general, the topic turns into a discussion on the topic "Which is better, to catch at home or abroad?"

Yes, that's definitely not necessary. We finish about "better".

AFTER ALL, IT IS TRULY GREAT that small opportunities allow you to moderate your immediate needs.

I disagree already shouting! How terrible it is that small opportunities force us to moderate our immediate needs.

In short, we will finally reduce to one thing:
If you want to catch-decide where exactly. If you can freely turn on a light bulb and run with a net, turn it on and run.
If something is not allowed , take care of the authorization documents, etc. Or just not a corn in the eyes of the locals, and then, you know, you catch their own food here in front of their eyes (and even with a net with a "forbidden hoop diameter") and no shame and conscience.
Probably so.

I disagree already shouting! How terrible it is that small opportunities force us to moderate our immediate needs.

Gee-y-y, I meant if a person is satisfied with this state of affairs

In short, we will finally reduce to one thing:
If you want to catch-decide where exactly. If you can freely turn on a light bulb and run with a net, turn it on and run.
If something is not allowed , take care of the authorization documents, etc. Or just not a corn in the eyes of the locals, and then, you know, you catch their own food here in front of their eyes (and even with a net with a "forbidden hoop diameter") and no shame and conscience.
Probably so.

That's it.
I would also like to remind you that they (the locals) are the hosts in their country, and we are their guests. And to a strange monastery...

Gee-y-y, I meant if a person is happy with this state of affairs

I thought about keeping my mouth shut, but I see that it is necessary to indicate my position.

I decided everything for myself a long time ago and I don't have any doubts. I also catch what I think is necessary and interesting for myself. Laws, local residents, security and other difficulties are considered collectively before each trip. I'm ready for anything, I don't take offense to anyone.

Adding to the collection and accumulating material on the topic of interest, I buy, exchange and catch it myself.
I respect and appreciate collectors who bring material from faraway places. They are our guides to the world of the new and unknown. The dedication and courage of some of them is simply amazing (Gurko, Sinyaev, Vashchenko).

I consider the" normality " of other entomologists to be equal to mine until they begin to prove the correctness of their position (to prove is to repeat the same thing in all sorts of ways over a long period of time).

By reading this and other forum threads. How many watchmen and watchmen there are among us. Hidden and explicit ones.

"Tahiti-Tahiti, we have not been to any Tahiti, we are not poorly fed here!!!" - lovers of fishing in city parks.

"I don't know what it's like in France, I haven't been there, but our manager is a friend of man" - for those who like to speculate on the topic "laws for people or people as fuel in the locomotive of a state car"

PS In Hungary the same garbage

This post was edited by barko - 12.01.2009 15: 00

I didn't post photos with landscapes and insects to show off, but to share my emotions from a dream come true.

I must say that the goal was achieved. Thank you.

Dear colleagues, don't you think that this dispute has long passed into the stage of flame: senseless and merciless?

"When I go about my business, I don't ask God or the devil!" or "To imprison, mercilessly imprison poachers, they knew what they were doing, I don't want to feel sorry for them." I would like to hope that all this is just a "transition to principle" in the dispute. I hope that everyone understands the unacceptability of extreme positions, and the truth, as always in such disputes, is somewhere in the middle.

"When I go about my business, I don't ask God or the devil!" or "To imprison, mercilessly imprison poachers, they knew what they were doing, I don't want to feel sorry for them." I would like to hope that all this is just a "transition to principle" in the dispute. I hope that everyone understands the unacceptability of extreme positions, and the truth, as always in such disputes, is somewhere in the middle.

These two approaches do not contradict each other at all.

Yes, for God's sake, small beetles are just as good as cossids or fatheads. Why take everything so literally?
Simply, if we want to know biodiversity, we need to know it. And this is still the Palearctic or the Globe. Just our blindness, lack of opportunities - this is the reason for the dislike of commerce (I first heard this word here). Of course, any sensible person should assess the degree of danger, there are places where I will never go. But when one of the braver ones breaks through there and brings not new species (as apparently lovers of garden plots believe), but brings a sector of previously unknown fauna, which is included in the already built-up system with a small puzzle. That's really cool. And this is the material for the biogegraph. To describe 100 or 200 new species is not an end in itself! The goal is to study the group, specify its biogeographic boundaries, and so on. Scrupulous work in the field, a lot of material, studying points previously not visited by anyone. This is the work of a zoogeographer. And what a blessing that there are merchants who often fill in these gaps. I'm not talking about those who spend their entire lives on Aram Kungei or Aktash and catch some eversmanns or Charltons and think they're an entomologist. We are not talking about them, but about those who, like Kindermann, Haberhauer, Docherty, go into the wild and bring us grains of biological knowledge in the form of material

Yakovlev, what you just said is correct and healthy. But your advice about Pakistan - why? I doubt that a sector of new fauna can be imported from Pakistan. But to get a bullet in the stomach or go to jail-easily. So should I go there? It is important to understand why you go to difficulties and dangers. For the sake of satisfying the adventurous nature of your nature, for new impressions, or really for the sake of science? Or for profit? But in any case, you need to understand that you are not a Panfilov hero who threw himself under a tank with a bunch of grenades in the name of the motherland, and not an Afghan warrior who unwittingly defends the honor of his country on a foreign land, but a person who is consciously looking for adventures on his head (ass). No luck? Bitten off a crocodile leg, tortured and robbed by evil Negroes in the dungeons, fell ill with sleeping sickness? So who's to blame for this but yourself? And the abundance of your adventures does not give you the right to look contemptuously and condescendingly at those who catch in Melitopol or Zhmerinka, as one frame argued here. Because the reasons for collecting not in Pakistan and not in Somalia can be very different indeed.

who catches in Melitopol or Zhmerinka, as one frame argued here. Because the reasons for collecting not in Pakistan and not in Somalia can be very different indeed.

I don't think it is correct to contrast the park-dacha-hometown and Pakistan-Somalia. There are other exotic places in the world. Where you can go without the risk of getting shot. Maybe there will not be an indescribable fauna, but there will be interesting views and unforgettable impressions for those who go there. I very much doubt that if the lovers of collecting at their dacha were offered a free entomological trip to Nepal, they would refuse. So I think the reason is still primarily finance.

ps In Pakistan, judging by the stories of the Russian traveler Anton Krotov who visited there, hospitable and friendly residents.

I won't judge about Pakistan - I don't know. But Yakovlev offers to frolic there - why would that be? You guys are saying strange things right now, okoyem. The fact is that if you offer a few thousand pupaars, they will also take it, they will not refuse. And not the fact that they will spend it on the trip. And they will be happy to go to the restaurant at someone else's expense. Even if they're not hungry.

This post was edited by omar - 13.01.2009 16: 01

Good afternoon!
The most important thing, Omar, is the goals of your research. If, in fact, the tasks include studying the surroundings of Zhmerinka , this is normal and correct. Moreover, entomology provides such opportunities and if you catch leiodide or collembol, then something will be found. And the faunal material will be good.
The fact that you can't bring a sector of new fauna from Pakistan is a mistake. There are no daylight hours. And small beetles... microbeads, scoops, flies, etc. And the point is not in heroism, but in the fact that the" greed " of commercial collectors is directly proportional to the greed of entomologists who want to look at the material, work with it. See how much has been published in recent years for Lebanon, Yemen, Iran, and Mongolia... That's great - we get new information. And remember the series of articles on the fauna of Northern Vietnam, where every second butterfly was a new species and where it was revealed that the boundaries of palearctic genera are much further south than it seemed before. And, believe me, and for Christ's sake forgive me, this is more important for science than a new species (one or two) from Zhytomyr. Although all this is wonderful and important information for entomology, but the weight of any information is different. I myself adore driving around my native Altai Territory, riding through our forests and steppes. Turn on the generator somewhere in Kolka and enjoy the eye-shaped hawk moth. And I know that in OCD. Barnaul or Zhytomyr can be perfectly engaged in entomology. For example, I am very interested in the fauna of the very south-west of the Altai Territory-near the border with Kazakhstan. After all, there are even new species of diurnal butterflies for the Russian Federation. In short, everyone enjoys communicating with insects both in Zhytomyr and on the Molluk Islands. And success to all. Find a new species in Zhmerinka, return without Ebola from Zaire. And hello!

And small beetles... microbeads, scoops, flies, etc.

My favorite scoops between microbeads and flies! How different we all are!

Hi Ronkayam, Giule Lachlo. Scoops are the national sport in Budapest. Great band. My student does scoops. I can give you the address. Smart guy.

Hi Ronkayam, Giule Lachlo. Scoops are the national sport in Budapest. Great band. My student does scoops. I can give you the address. Smart guy.

I'll be happy to pass it on! The first two are here today, but Gylai Laszlo doesn't come to Budapest often. We traditionally meet at European bursas
Address of your student sovochnik give of course (in PM).

But when one of the braver ones breaks through there and brings not new species (as apparently lovers of garden plots believe), but brings a sector of previously unknown fauna, which is included in the already built-up system with a small puzzle. That's really cool.

"The waters I am entering have never been crossed before!" (sorry, quote from memory). A sense of novelty and phenomenal diversity. To see what no one else has ever seen!

My boss went to great lengths to get me to the tropics in his time. The person who saw this is already poisoned for the rest of his life. There are, of course, those who are immune to miracles: "There is no Carib Sea, there is this stunted palm tree, but there is no sea" (again, I can't fully quote from memory, and it's not fair to go for a book).

So, to go to the tropics, you need to go there not just to faint from the crazy variety, you still need to navigate at least approximately in this variety. At least to know what's good and what's bad. Miracles are also different. Unless, of course, the task is not to row everyone in a row with a shovel for sale. Since I, for example, am very poorly versed in tropical species, a trip there is little justification for me. At least for entomological purposes.

and for me it's good, because I collect everything, and I would row everything with a shovel, but only for myself and for exchange, not for sale
But personally, I have little interest in the local views, except that only for beauty to fill the boxes with unusual cute views and show guests And so in Wed Asia pulls But from the tropics would not refuse - to faint from abundance, it's so nice :D

Ha!
As practice has shown, abundance in the tropics still needs to be looked for. Not only do you need to take into account a lot of factors - climate, weather, altitude, lunar, you also need to have at least a drop of luck.
Then, if we want to sell,we need to be sure that there will be a buyer.

well, if you don't want to go to the tropics, no one drags you there by force.
Someone likes to pull rotans in the pond near the Moscow Ring Road, and someone grayling Siberian serve. For example, I am one of those who are "for grayling".

This post was edited by Morozzz - 13.01.2009 16: 49

Again, the discussion began - where to catch steeper... Like dig you here in your sandbox (pond with rotans), and we do not want this and will catch in the tropics, like big ones... Only the example with the Siberian grayling is unsuccessful-Siberia is located in the wrong direction. According to the results of this discussion, it seems that commercial fishers need to put up a monument with the inscription on the pedestal - "from grateful entomologists". They also care about the advancement of science, and catch new sectors of fauna... Only at the same time, we should not forget that most often commercial hunters do not take all the fauna, but only what can have commercial value. So we are not talking about full-fledged faunal studies. It is unlikely that merchants will carry fly collections or microlepidopters from the tropics (unless of course there is an order for this). As far as I understand, most of the collections confiscated in Peru were destined to become souvenir boxes, but there is no need to talk about scientific significance...

Well, who knows where and when, he will catch a whole bunch.
I would go everywhere - but there is no possibility. Can spit on everything in the world and go around the world to collect insects? And then sell some of it in Bursa, so that you can scrape together a new ticket and food and then wander around the world

Maybe we will organize an entomological society, which will be divided into companies of about 6 people of different interests and wander around the world, collecting insects all year round. Upon return, everyone will exchange their loot. Or even make a single museum, where everything will be put together. create your own journal with our reports, discoveries, and articles.. This will be a life I understand-entirely in my favorite business!

I would go everywhere - but there is no possibility. Can spit on everything in the world and go around the world to collect insects? And then sell some of it in Bursa, so that you can scrape together a new ticket and food and then wander around the world

That's how they become commercial entomologists
"A citizen of the Republic of Moldova detained at the South Mubakassa airport for attempting to export insects has been released... "(from a media report, 2014)

I read the posts and I see a hidden hatred for entomologists-merchants!And this is explained not by a naive "I'm not interested in this...", but by completely different psychological factors!
And regarding the "krupnyak" and "trifle",dear Anthrenus, you are deeply wrong!My entomologist friend, who falls under the name "Kommersant", in Vietnam collected just a small change from the screen when giant saturniums slammed against it!So not everything is so one-sided and primitive as it seems to you sitting in your dacha.
And yet... if "it's not interesting"(hence "it doesn't matter"), what's so annoying?..

Somewhere in the middle of the debate, I mentioned the ban on the creation of private zoological collections in our country as well.Salix & amara & Dmitrich, you somehow overlooked this fact!What, you're not familiar with this?Read it at your leisure,I guarantee you a fascinating read!Dear Salix, or do you think Dmitrich," crushing " his native entomofauna, observed all the laws about which you rubbed us?Or is it not Peru and there is no customs on the border of the garden?
I don't know if you personally collect insects,Salix,but it seems that it's time for you to "climb the barricades", at least for Dmitrich!