About tropics, merchants, and personal preferences

Somewhere in the middle of the debate, I mentioned the ban on the creation of private zoological collections in our country as well

yes, there doesn't seem to be a ban, but it should be registered with all the consequences. And a lot of difficulties in registration. Therefore, according to the law, we don't even have a ZINA collection registered. At least, that was the case until recently.

"The waters I am entering have never been crossed before!" (sorry, quote from memory). A sense of novelty and phenomenal diversity. To see what no one else has ever seen!

My boss went to great lengths to get me to the tropics in his time. The person who saw this is already poisoned for the rest of his life. There are, of course, those who are immune to miracles: "There is no Carib Sea, there is this stunted palm tree, but there is no sea" (again, I can't fully quote from memory, and it's not fair to go for a book).

And yet all people are different. I really liked to relax in the tropics, but in terms of catching insects, the Russian or Ukrainian steppe is a hundred times more interesting to me. Well, I have tropical eardrums. And one hundred percent guarantee that I will never determine them. Will he apply for help from specialists in the ZIN for identification? I'm not really interested. For me, 90 percent of the fun is in self-determination. Most suffer, make mistakes, fill bumps.... I'm much less interested in the aesthetic side of the question. I take it easy in lacquered boxes with even rows of beautifully spread bright large tropical beetles or butterflies. And I would never trade a shoe box with gray, nondescript bees near Moscow for them.

I have heard such a story (for what I bought, for what I sell).
Entomologists in Peru, in addition to their collections, also used the services of local collectors. And they caught insects in the intervals between collecting coca and legitilates.
As a result, when the luggage was already packed and passed through customs, the local drug police allowed trained dogs to pass through it. Dogs honestly working off their piece of meat, stood up in a rack.
The autopsy showed that there were no drugs in the luggage, but there is a large amount of entomological material. And then the flywheel spun.

I really didn't want to flood in this topic anymore. But one point was really missed, as DISAF said. I am also interested to ask the zealous "lawyers" - do they have Red Book insects in their collections? Are there any papers with seals for this? And insects from countries where fishing and export are prohibited by law and which are probably present in collections for exchange (or as a gift)? The" immorality "of others is always clearer when it's not about "your shirt". I also suspect that the hidden (I would even say subconscious) hatred of hunters comes from the inability to do the same for any reason.

I have heard such a story (for what I bought, for what I sell).
Entomologists in Peru, in addition to their collections, also used the services of local collectors. And they caught insects in the intervals between collecting coca and legitilates.
As a result, when the luggage was already packed and passed through customs, the local drug police allowed trained dogs to pass through it. Dogs honestly working off their piece of meat, stood up in a rack.
The autopsy showed that there were no drugs in the luggage, but there is a large amount of entomological material. And then the flywheel spun.

They attracted paid collectors, caught themselves for a month and only 6 thousand copies were collected? This is very small for four people. Strange even.

PS I'm still waiting for offers to spend the spring to winter traveling in the Palearctic: D

I don't care if you like small things or big things, like everything shiny or dull, I value the company. Join the army. Catch, kill, spread, add to your collection!



PPS This dispute is endless, the campaign is so bad that everyone is swearing. In fact, this is not due to some ardent position that everyone wants to adhere to (although this also affects), but more due to the fact that everyone is sitting at home at computers, frosts are outside, there is nothing much to do, and there are few pleasant emotions. So the feuds begin, just to yell, so to speak.
If we were in the field, I assure you, it wouldn't matter if there was a merchant next to you or a scientist. Everyone would just have fun, get high from fishing. Those who need only large and beautiful ones would give small and "terrible" things to their neighbor and everyone would be happy..

So stop grinding what you've already abandoned a month ago.
In general, I went to glue dorkash, weevils, nutcrackers, letruses, hoplias and bedbugs on the dies. And you are sitting here swearing

Gyyyyy. And they also say in Peru you can buy material for a penny and go back )
Gyyyyy. And also about the fact that one friend of a friend in Peru found 1 thing and bought 1, a white squirrel, very small, the size of a pigeon, and like exactly a new species, but does not want to describe it, and there seems to be no one. Sells a pair for 50 bucks. And no one takes

2Ripper
Rip, I'd love to, but for now I've got a pitchfork on the water. I do not abandon the idea of the Obruchev ridge in Tuva. But to do this, you need several different pieces to grow together, and this will only be visible in the spring.
And so, Astrakhan in early May for a couple of weeks is more or less realistic.

I have heard such a story (for what I bought, for what I sell).
Entomologists in Peru, in addition to their collections, also used the services of local collectors. And they caught insects in the intervals between collecting coca and legitilates.
As a result, when the luggage was already packed and passed through customs, the local drug police allowed trained dogs to pass through it. Dogs honestly working off their piece of meat, stood up in a rack.
The autopsy showed that there were no drugs in the luggage, but there is a large amount of entomological material. And then the flywheel spun.

In Peru, coca is sold in the bazaar. There is such a baaalshoy bag on the counter and the inscription - here you can legally buy coca...

And yet all people are different. I really liked to relax in the tropics, but in terms of catching insects, the Russian or Ukrainian steppe is a hundred times more interesting to me. Well, I have tropical eardrums. And one hundred percent guarantee that I will never determine them. Will he apply for help from specialists in the ZIN for identification? I'm not really interested. For me, 90 percent of the fun is in self-determination. Most suffer, make mistakes, fill bumps.... I'm much less interested in the aesthetic side of the question. I take it easy in lacquered boxes with even rows of beautifully spread bright large tropical beetles or butterflies. And I would never trade a shoe box with gray, nondescript bees near Moscow for them.

And you don't have to be in the tropics to enter waters that no one has ever crossed before. There are many groups that are very poorly studied in the European part of the now deceased USSR. For me, the main thing is the feeling of new things. I remember how amazing the world is discovered with the help of an ordinary eclector in the Leningrad region. On the other hand, the "commodity krupnyak" is already well studied even in the tropics.

But this is already off top.

once again, the topic has already moved to the flame stage.

yes, there doesn't seem to be a ban, but it should be registered with all the consequences. And a lot of difficulties in registration. Therefore, according to the law, we don't even have a ZINA collection registered. At least, that was the case until recently.

Illegal immigrants we are all, N E L E G A L S!

  
PPS This dispute is endless, the campaign is so bad that everyone is swearing. In fact, this is not due to some ardent position that everyone wants to adhere to (although this also affects), but more due to the fact that everyone is sitting at home at computers, frosts are outside, there is nothing much to do, and there are few pleasant emotions. So the feuds begin, just to yell, so to speak.

My friends! Collectors are passionate people, hence such a temperamental argument in defense of their passion, love of insects!
There is a good method that unites all interests - to gather everyone at your own, Russian entomological "fair" and exchange your material to your heart's content without any "dirty" money!

They attracted paid collectors, caught themselves for a month and only 6 thousand copies were collected? This is very small for four people. Strange even.

only a few types of beetles were bought from the locals

Only one thing is absolutely true - that almost all of us are illegal immigrants!
Only biofactors and researchers are right in their fees. and then, if the material is not in the collection goes, and completely in the museum.. Eh..

The worst thing is that they are forbidden, but there is no sense. In principle, there are not so many of us, and if we are allowed to carry everything, go everywhere, then people will practically no longer go. Perhaps not a lot, since everyone still goes and spits on all the bans, and all the bans spit on themselves, and no one takes them into account, except in Brazil, Peru, India, Turkmenistan, etc.
But if you start to follow all this strictly, then the world entomologist will not have a sweet time. Then you won't catch it, or buy it, or anything at all.. You'll sit there like an Australian and chew pictures on the Internet

And to the congress that all! And then there will be no quarrels. And it's time to close the topic, otherwise the chatter will be endless.

And it's time to close the topic, otherwise the chatter will be endless.

That's right! There is no desire to respond to posts addressed to me. It's all said so. I will note only one thing: contrary to the opinion (assumption?) some participants, personally, I have neither envy, nor, moreover, hatred for the so-called commerce is not.

My friends! Collectors are passionate people, hence such a temperamental argument in defense of their passion, love of insects!
There is a good method that unites all interests - to gather everyone at your own, Russian entomological "fair" and exchange your material to your heart's content without any "dirty" money!

Yes, "without any" dirty "money!" still will not do And maybe it's for the best.
I don't have any hatred or dislike for merchants either.Still, they go and take risks for us.

Ha!
As practice has shown, abundance in the tropics still needs to be looked for. Not only do you need to take into account a lot of factors - climate, weather, altitude, lunar, you also need to have at least a drop of luck.
Then, if we want to sell,we need to be sure that there will be a buyer.

well, if you don't want to go to the tropics, no one drags you there by force.
Someone likes to pull rotans in the pond near the Moscow Ring Road, and someone grayling Siberian serve. For example, I am one of those who are "for grayling".

+1

.... According to the results of this discussion, it seems that commercial catchers need to put up a monument with the inscription on the pedestal - "from grateful entomologists". They also care about the advancement of science, and catch new sectors of fauna... Only at the same time, we should not forget that most often commercial hunters do not take all the fauna, but only what can have commercial value. So we are not talking about full-fledged faunal studies. It is unlikely that merchants will carry fly collections or microlepidopters from the tropics (unless of course there is an order for this). As far as I understand, most of the collections confiscated in Peru were destined to become souvenir boxes, but there is no need to talk about scientific significance...

I am familiar with a very small number of commercial mail fetchers. But there are no pure merchants among them. As a rule, in the process of commercial fees, they also deal with fees for groups that interest them, such as bark beetles. Moreover, professionally. And for them, commerce is not a pure goal, but, in many ways, a means to continue their scientific work and ensure a more or less decent life in material terms. At the same time, any commerce is always a risk in one degree or another and in another form. And yet-a lot of work...

Dear Salix, or do you think Dmitrich," crushing " his native entomofauna, observed all the laws about which you rubbed us?

Dmitrich, if he breaks the laws, does not shout at every corner that the laws are shit, and he is an angel and a judge of these laws (even admitting the absurdity of some of them), and clearly regrets realizing that he is breaking and that he is forced to do so. Tries to act according to the law, where possible. Where it is not possible, it reduces violations and risks to a minimum. And soberly assesses the possible consequences, unlike some of his opponents. Or so it seemed to me.

My friends! Collectors are passionate people, hence such a temperamental argument in defense of their passion, love of insects!

Don't you confuse the love of collaboration with the love of insects?

The whole point is that merchants are very different.
there are those who collect only Parnassus and Colias. This is of course last day.
And here are the people who row a shovel, a moth, a small thing... Do you know how much I bought myself for my group? WHOO...
But my friend Petya Ustyuzhanin is a specialist in finger flies - he also buys so many of them. In general, normal merchants know that it is much easier to sell small things than parnassus who have become tired.
Therefore, the monument should not be put to all merchants, as well as professional entomologists, but only a small part.
You know, I often go to Munich and watch new material coming in. So here is a lot of material from standard (albeit interesting) places-Varzob, Ashgabat, Issyk-Kul - but there are also non-standard points. And new taxa are immediately released there. And smart entomologists and smart merchants go to non-standard locations. Let's explore. Hey, comrades, who will go to the Altai-well, stop sitting in Aktash. Let's see what's available elsewhere. Although Aktash is certainly super!

[quote=guest: Yakovlev ,15.01.2009 06:00]

Yes, not only in his address
, it's just funny when you say - there's such a thing there, and they answer you-yes, it's not necessary to fuck on bursa
, but they say to themselves - entomologist!

A day of absence on the Forum - and you Salix, already so many pearls navydavali!You can see that you don't want to close the topic and go in peace at all...

Don't you confuse the love of collaboration with the love of insects?

Without the love of insects, we would collect beer corks or stamps!Don't make an idiot of yourself, you are our "most normal"...
I have a couple of questions for you:
If you have "no prohibited fees", then where are the "permissive" pieces of paper with seals from?And for what types?Put one sample on the forum - it will be informative for everyone to get acquainted...

Your suspicion is a figment of your imagination. I would say that there is clearly a tendency to judge by yourself. There is no hatred of merchants as a class. But there is no big love either.

I agree, you have no fantasies. And love, it seems, too. Boring.

It is interesting to ask amateur collectors: if the laws prohibit private characters from collecting military firearms or drugs (each type of bag from each region, with a label), but the collector really, really wants to, then you can?

You can, but carefully.

For me, the right of everyone to collect anything is not at all obvious.

For me, too.

Moreover, the benefits of private collectors in Russia are not very much.

A controversial issue, this is nothing more than a private opinion.

According to previous posts, it is clear that the main goals are to determine yourself (the process is important, not the result), show off in front of friends (see the section "Photos of Collections"), and of course the main thing is to satisfy the thirst for possession.

I think that photos of insects are more useful here than your "correct" views on life.

In this case, "collector" is a diagnosis, like kleptomania. The disease is basically harmless, and for the patient and others, as a rule, not dangerous. However, the disease, pathology.

You're not a therapist. And too often on the forum put diagnoses.

It is another matter when a private collection is just a tool, and is used for other purposes (e.g. for scientific purposes, but not necessarily) than the three listed above. To such collectors, the attitude is different, quite benevolent.

Thanks for that, too.

This post was edited by Entalex - 15.01.2009 10: 11

My friends, don't get carried away with diagnostics.
If you have any problems with a certified psychiatrist, please contact us.
Madness is, unfortunately, a democratic thing. And everyone is affected by this disease. I am sure that among entomologists, collectors, and nuclear physicists there are many people with accentuations of character. No more than that. And as Kerbikov (the great Russian psychiatrist) said - if there were no accent, the world would suffocate from grayness.
Although there are also patients. But also among elevator operators and deputies.

Yes, I also noticed quite quickly that collectors "rule the ball" here.
I myself am just an amateur, for whom determining a beetle to a species is a favorite activity, or at least it has been until now.

Interestingly, amara, do you blow endophallus to live beetles?Or do your defining interests not extend beyond the rhino-Spanish fly?..

Interestingly, amara, do you blow endophallus to live beetles?Or do your defining interests not extend beyond the rhino-Spanish fly?..

Young man, if you ask questions a little more politely, maybe I'll answer them.

Dmitrich, if he breaks the laws, does not shout at every corner that the laws are shit, and he is an angel and a judge of these laws (even admitting the absurdity of some of them), and clearly regrets realizing that he is breaking and that he is forced to do so. Tries to act according to the law, where possible. Where it is not possible, it reduces violations and risks to a minimum. And soberly assesses the possible consequences, unlike some of his opponents. Or so it seemed to me

If you crushed a butterfly with love and affection (apparently not as a merchant), are you more pure before the law and the Almighty?Or to stay "clean" just a little pity?..

Young man, if you ask questions a little more politely, maybe I'll answer them.

I haven't been rude to you yet!While...And for the" young " thank you!!!

 
Defiantly excluding money from the relationship, do you want to emphasize the crystal clarity and loftiness of intentions? :- ) At the same time, are you happy for merchants who want to receive money for their insects? Merchants are not allowed to enter the fair? :- ) Correct me, I don't want to offend anyone, but isn't this hypocrisy?

Come to the next fair anyway.Whoever you are.You want to buy, you want to change.It is not pleasant to communicate with merchants - stand aside and listen to new information for yourself.

"In this case, "collector" is a diagnosis, like kleptomania. The disease is basically harmless, and for the patient and others, as a rule, not dangerous. However, the disease, pathology."

Of course it is. Sublimation of pathological addictions. And here-necropedozoophilia.

Why are you doing this to us?
You're a guest! And guests don't behave like that

 
Of course it is. Sublimation of pathological addictions. And here-necropedozoophilia.

Rather, in your inflamed brain. Contact Yakovlev.

let's call

Slow down, gentlemen. The topic is still open, but this does not mean that you can be rude and get personal

Thank you, Bolivar!
The right tactic!

Dmitrich, if he breaks the laws, does not shout at every corner that the laws are shit, and he is an angel and a judge of these laws (even admitting the absurdity of some of them), and clearly regrets realizing that he is breaking and that he is forced to do so. Tries to act according to the law, where possible. Where it is not possible, it reduces violations and risks to a minimum. And soberly assesses the possible consequences, unlike some of his opponents. Or so it seemed to me.

Thank you, Salix! And then I already began to think that I speak in some other (not in Russian) language, if some of the respected participants in the discussion do not understand me! It's nice that there are still people who understand exactly what I wanted to say.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 15.01.2009 15: 14

According to previous posts, it is clear that the main goals are to determine yourself (the process is important, not the result), show off in front of friends (see the section "Photos of Collections"), and of course the main thing is to satisfy the thirst for possession. We are talking about collectors, for whom the collection is the goal itself. There is no need to talk about self-education as an end in itself, in the vast majority of cases it is aimed at improving collecting, that is, it is quite applied (knowledge for collecting, and not vice versa). Such people here on the forum and beyond, apparently, are a serious majority. And among the beetle-butterflies in general, almost every first. In this case, "collector" is a diagnosis, like kleptomania. The disease is basically harmless, and for the patient and others, as a rule, not dangerous. However, the disease, pathology.

Salix,you should be more careful with your conclusions!Dmytrych also exhibited in the "photos of collections" section,and I remember that he was in "your team"...This is nothing less than spitting at a colleague!(Dmitritch, don't be offended that I mention it in the press.So it turns out that all disputes on the forum consist of examples, comparisons and links.I am deeply sympathetic to your collection (what I saw),so lovingly assembled and decorated.No kidding!