About tropics, merchants, and personal preferences

it depends on what aspect of entomology is being discussed.. For taxonomy, such specimens are not suitable; for faunistics, information is often more important than the accumulation of specimens. But here is the history of the development of zhentmology yes, as an example of biodiversity yes, etc.

to SIVKOVDM-commercial interest......???? Hardly....... Collecting insects,in particular butterflies, is such a thing - here the commercial side of the issue goes hand in hand with the scientific one. and there are no labels - scientific value = 0.....
I'd just keep it for myself. like a family heirloom ! maybe soaked, but outweighed from the sunny side, that would be less faded.

For me, commercial collectibles: I went somewhere, helped myself, returned to my homeland, attached it for money, while paying off not only the trip, but also remaining in profit

That yes... so it is
Often this commercial collecting gives more for science than all the "scientific" ones taken together.
If we talk about professional catchers, then Gurko, Sinyaev, etc. are wonderful professionals in their field. And let their luck smile more often.

For me, commercial collectibles: I went somewhere, helped myself, returned to my homeland, attached it for money, and at the same time paid for not only the trip, but also remained in profit

In my opinion, this is not called "collecting", but "commercial collection".
Collectibles are all about putting things out and putting them in boxes, so to speak.

In my opinion, this is not called "collecting", but "commercial collection".
Collectibles are all about putting things out and putting them in boxes, so to speak.

Vladimir, you just don't know the defendants. Sinyaev and Gurko are exactly collectional entomologists and secondarily commercial collectors. They have very good scientific collections and, as a result, publications describing new species.

I recently read an article by V. I. Kuznetsov - I will try to scan it and put it on the site-about the peculiarities of fees in the tropics. This is a very funny article. Considering Kuznetsov a remarkable specialist in leaf wrappers-at the same time he was laughing at this article - a kind of feuilleton. How mud stuck to his feet, how they caught the light from the 7th floor of the hotel, how hot it was and sweat blurred his eyes.
It is a pity that Sinyaev does not write about his trips - I think he could earn good money from these stories.

Vladimir, you just don't know the defendants. Sinyaev and Gurko are exactly collectional entomologists and secondarily commercial collectors. They have very good scientific collections and, as a result, publications describing new species.

Quite right, but, in my opinion, T. Okoem would not argue with this; and he did not talk about specific persons here, just clarified the concepts, because the previous colleague limited himself to words about collecting and selling, for some reason not saying a word about the fact that after the "payback" of the trip, something will happen.this is also left in your own collection (either you just forgot, or by collecting at all, I meant collecting, i.e. exclusively collecting-it's hard to say).

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 05.12.2009 04: 35

to A. J. Elez -
and probably......
THE CURTAIN !!!!!!!

Vladimir, you just don't know the defendants. Sinyaev and Gurko are exactly collectional entomologists and secondarily commercial collectors. They have very good scientific collections and, as a result, publications describing new species.

Can I link to articles? Preferably in the Palearctic?

By default, I am very skeptical about the first descriptions made by merchants, given that one of the mentioned ones does not distinguish (did not distinguish) Eudocima from Catocala and the fact that extensive series of paratypes are then sold at European fairs...

Can I link to articles? Preferably in the Palearctic?

By default, I am very skeptical about the first descriptions made by merchants, given that one of the mentioned ones does not distinguish (did not distinguish) Eudocima from Catocala and the fact that extensive series of paratypes are then sold at European fairs...

Gurk has co-authored articles with Dubatolov, Sinyaev and Zolotukhin. In fact, their most important merit is the release of a huge amount of interesting material to the world market. Their profile is to catch new species. And they handle it successfully.

I Googled it right off the bat:

http://www.biologiezentrum.at/biophp/arti_...95&artinr=91610

http://www.ekoi.lt/uploads/docs/AZL_2007_0...is-Ivinskis.pdf

V. Murzin and V. Sinyaev. A new subspecies of Erebia kifersteini from the Kuznetsk Alatau. - Described by E. k. otteni ssp. n. and discusses the distribution and characteristics of all known subspecies of the named species (mentioned: http://entomolog.narod.ru/news_ent.html)

But in general, there are more references to the material from Sinyaev, to his merits as a field worker. So it certainly benefits entomology. Without the likes of him, I would have looked at the writing fraternity. Here is not metaphysics, here is empirical material, and the first one is perhaps sometimes much more difficult to get than the first one to describe. But paratypes end up in the hands of the right people, and the purchasers should not be interested in hiding it from science for any reason (except, of course, in cases of scientific competition and rascality, but this is not a matter of the fairground origin of the material). In itself, the circulation of scientific material is not a problem, as long as the material eventually works for science. It is unlikely that suckers often buy paratypes on bursas to decorate their homes.

By the way, T. barko said that the result is the described new species, but he did not say that the described ones are necessarily by the collectors themselves. And according to Sinyaev's collections, for example – that is, precisely because of his dedicated work – entomologists have described many new taxa, and something is named in his honor.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 05.12.2009 20: 27

I'll give you another example. A huckster is sitting and selling undefined material on Bursa. The scientist is all such a refined European. He buys something, and wildly haggling, knocking down the price by 2 times. Then he describes it-he knew what he was buying and sells it 100 times more expensive with red labels.

no one had forced the huckster to sell who knows what. ignorance and laziness have never been in favor. so the European is right, and well done.

I don't like anyone here, although technically I can't find fault with a European. I would have been happy to be that European myself if I had bought a good book for my home library on the cheap from a drunkard who doesn't know the market price of the goods he sells in the underpass. But this is not for resale, but for yourself.
But, needless to say, knowledge is power. In the absence of knowledge (in particular, about your own product), there is always a risk that they will profit from you (there are a lot of such examples), what can you do? Just learn, learn and learn. In the 1920s, a poster was distributed with the text: "The illiterate is the same as the blind. Failure and misfortune await him everywhere." And scientific knowledge in market conditions, sometimes, alas, is only a help to scoundrelism and greed. But one foreman said (hardly invented it himself): there are no thieves in the army, only people who don't know how to protect their belongings. This formula should not be absolutized, of course,but it should not be forgotten.

However, the example of the European, who in fact, with all his scholarship, is the coolest huckster, compared to whom the first huckster is just a modest associate professor, is given here, in my opinion, not to pose the problem of abusing someone else's ignorance, but to show how relative the edges are and how unjustified it is to put on one side on one side is a pure black "huckster", and on the other side is a pure white "man of science".

When such a thing is done to you by well-done Europeans, having previously explained to you that your material costs nothing at all... the opinion will change dramatically. A dealer who knows all the stuff that rowing in Papua or Peru does not exist. It's just that there are certain decencies that, unfortunately, are violated by both sellers and buyers alike. And about laziness, Roma, it's you who bent it... From a beer-swollen and contented rich burgher, or the guy who, after going through fifty customs offices and getting sick with typhoid and malaria, delivered this material to his desk. Sometimes buyers openly sneer at the seller, knowing that he has no choice... Of course, there are people who know their own worth, who are strong on their feet, but there are not so many of them.

However, the example of the European, who in fact, with all his scholarship, is the coolest huckster, compared to whom the first huckster is just a modest associate professor, is given here, in my opinion, not to pose the problem of abusing someone else's ignorance, but to show how relative the edges are and how unjustified it is to put on one side on one side is a pure black "huckster", and on the other side is a pure white "man of science".

Brilliant!
In fact, it is.

You just need to know something about what you're collecting, and don't be too lazy to show that you don't know who needs it. How long? Troublesome? It is much easier to collect everything in a pile and sell it all in a bag by weight, as grandmothers sell seeds. Why then be surprised that you are being bred? And about typhoid - don't, Rum, we've already discussed it. If you don't want to, don't be sick, you don't perform a feat in the name of humanity, and you stick out in the jungle of your own free will.

Can I link to articles? Preferably in the Palearctic?

By default, I am very skeptical about the first descriptions made by merchants, given that one of the mentioned ones does not distinguish (did not distinguish) Eudocima from Catocala and the fact that extensive series of paratypes are then sold at European fairs...

I probably can't provide links to articles. I don't follow their work on purpose. And I don't follow it in any way. From memory, I can name Palearctia ammosovi Dubatolov et Gurko, 2002 http://209.85.135.132/search?q=cache:QJoZD...1&hl=en&ct=clnk
This spring in Prague, Vova Gurko showed me a bear in a box, said a new species, but who collected and who described I do not remember.

Paratypes, someone's knowledge or ignorance ... please do not insist on my comment, and I have no less skepticism than you by the way. or

This post was edited by barko - 05.12.2009 23: 32

Here's a quick Google:
...
V. Murzin and V. Sinyaev. A new subspecies of Erebia kifersteini from the Kuznetsk Alatau. - Described by E. k. otteni ssp. n..
..

IMHO, E. kefersteini. otteni-dubious subspecies = synonym of nominatives

[quote=barko,06.12.2009 00:25]

That yes... so it is
If we talk about professional hunters-then Gurko, Sinyaev, etc. - these are wonderful professionals in their field. And let their luck smile more often.

I don't know about Gurko. And I know V. V. Sinyaev personally. This is a super professional in his field.

Exactly all said.

Exactly everything is said in the message of A. J. Elez "photos of collections" yesterday 04.41

If you don't want to, don't be sick, you don't perform a feat in the name of humanity, and you stick out in the jungle of your own free will.

Fieldwork deserves respect to the extent that it provides a scientific result, and not because it is done out of hand. Voluntary work, work not in spite of "one's own song", but in harmony with one's own scientific interests, I think, is just more effective and useful than work without internal personal motivation, under compulsion. And it is not only the work that the worker himself hates that should be rewarded. We are talking about the need to take into account these simple things, and in my opinion, no one was going to complain and complain here. If you don't want to, don't get sick, right? But if one person doesn't go, the other person will go (or won't go either), but in principle, you can't catch some forms without hassle and strain. And if no one goes, the object will simply not be provided to science.

Thanks for attention.

This post was edited by Stapleton - 04.03.2010 06: 37

I found a link to myself indirectly. Thank you, Victor.
I think the worst thing about commercial entomology is deliberate label confusion.
The opus itself is good - there is a lot of truth in it. However, why so abruptly... If there were no chitin collectors , there would be no magnificent materials from the most remote parts of the world. I recently received a cossid from Ghana. I was very happy, although I paid a lot.
What did you do in entomology, Viktor Titov? Two subspecies of Parnassius have been described-co-authored-and the group is far from the most innocent.
The essay contains no information about foreign "paraentomology". Only Russian sinners?
The letters " Dr."- means having a degree, not a doctor of science sensu of the Higher Attestation Commission of the Russian Federation.
Victor, you've taken offense to someone for writing such a beautiful essay. I write this without irony. You either have to fall in love or get mad at someone to write beautifully.

to write beautifully, you just need to be able to write beautifully and without mistakes. that's all. generally.

The good old denunciation is stigmatization.

I immediately remembered Burtsev and his "Just Cause"

"...Burtsev was grabbing a pen with his dry fingers, and
his nose was hanging over the hurried illegible lines, over the ink
splashes.

"...who have lost their sense of basic decency; people in
whose presence you fear for the integrity of your handkerchief! And we
every right to throw them in the face: curse you, Bolsheviks!.."
Burtsev carefully placed the pen on the glass stand and rubbed his dry
palms together. Lisovsky was standing in front of him, grinning as always. Burtsev said:
"I finished the editorial... Hardly anyone wrote such merciless
words. They will fall like thunder on their head. If they even have a hint of
conscience left, they won't survive the shame..."


and then


"Vladimir Lvovich Burtsev, using the last money of the Denisov grant
, published the famous issue of Obshchego Delo with the full-page headline
'Aspen stake to you, Bolsheviks'. With a fresh print of the newspaper, he burst into
a meeting of the Paris conference (declared continuous) and demanded
fifty thousand francs for the final discredit of Lenin and Co... "

And in my opinion, the most disgusting thing about commercial fees is that the material may fall out of scientific circulation. Who knows who will buy it in Bursa?

Over there, the fatheads from Armenia - where are they now?

yes, he's "combed" a lot of people here. but it is not 500 euros to please everyone . The worst thing about commercial entomology, Roman, is not label forgery. This is putting shit on your colleagues. Real shit. To turn over a colleague to the environmental authorities is the most disgusting act. It's one thing - if it's merchants fighting among themselves, they share the money. It's a different matter if it concerns you. When science suffers because some asshole of money wants to cut down 100 more bach-it's a complete business...

You see, dear Stas, we don't go to Kyrgyzstan. And if anyone comes to our Altai-so welcome. And everyone who contacted me from the forum (at least 10 people) I gave extensive consultations. I met guests at my home. And how someone catches someone in the field and expels them from the territory is generally a crime. Just seeing dozens of footnotes on meanness - I saw a footnote on myself in the same row. And this is a little disturbing to me. Knowing all the chemistry of the process...

Actually, this topic is not very close to me, since I myself do not use the services of merchants when receiving material. However, some comments about the author-my namesake-seemed unfair and inappropriate.

The opus itself is good - there is a lot of truth in it. However, why so abruptly...

And the truth can't be more or less harsh (unlike a lie). The truth is what it is.

What did you do in entomology, Viktor Titov? Two subspecies of Parnassius were described-in co-authorship...

What's the point of that? The author is absolutely in the subject, as you, the Novel, have recognized ("...the opus is good - there is a lot of truth in it..."), what does his personal merits in entomology have to do with it? And after describing how many species (and not co-authored), do you think it is permissible to tell the truth about the mores that flourish in commercial entomology?

Victor, you've taken offense to someone for writing such a beautiful essay. I write this without irony. You either have to fall in love or get mad at someone to write beautifully.

And this, better than omar, can not comment:

to write beautifully, you just need to be able to write beautifully and without mistakes. that's all. generally.

And in my opinion, the most disgusting thing about commercial fees is that the material may fall out of scientific circulation. Who knows who will buy it in Bursa?

Over there, the fatheads from Armenia - where are they now?

This is exactly what is good in commercial fees, that the material is put into scientific circulation.

And in my opinion, the most disgusting thing about commercial fees is that the material may fall out of scientific circulation. Who knows who will buy it in Bursa?

Over there, the fatheads from Armenia - where are they now?

They are from Ernsta Brockmann or de Jong or M. Albrecht. You never know who on Bursa will buy P. davydovi, but only a few friends will buy fatheads, cocoonworms or cossids. Like alticin or cryptophagide. Isn't that right, Omar? Why do you need a table in bursa in Moscow? (adin)?

This post was edited by Yakovlev - 01.03.2010 21: 07

What's the point of that? The author is absolutely in the subject, as you, the Novel, have recognized ("...the opus is good - there is a lot of truth in it..."), what does his personal merits in entomology have to do with it? And after describing how many species (and not co-authored), do you think it is permissible to tell the truth about the mores that flourish in commercial entomology?

In my opinion, it is permissible to talk about the methods of inflating the already rubber taxonomy to someone who has really succeeded in this business. And not in the descriptions of the Apollons - a very slippery group from the point of view of paraentomology.

In my opinion, it is permissible to talk about the methods of inflating the already rubber taxonomy to someone who has really succeeded in this business. And not in the descriptions of the Apollons - a very slippery group from the point of view of paraentomology.

It's clear.

Come to Kyrgyzstan to see me. Meet me at your home.

I don't doubt it! And you come to me

They are from Ernsta Brockmann or de Jong or M. Albrecht. You never know who on Bursa will buy P. davydovi, but only a few friends will buy fatheads, cocoonworms or cossids. Like alticin or cryptophagide. Isn't that right, Omar? Why do you need a table in bursa in Moscow? (adin)?

You never know why. We will put a samovar and drink tea with a ripper

Second, read what you wrote again. in the " Brief Essay "

The author of the "Short Essay" is not Dmitrich

Yes, I took two Viktor Titovs for one. I apologize to them for that.