About tropics, merchants, and personal preferences

Again, some far-fetched contradictions and problems are being inflated...

The topic is still painful. IMHO, the trouble is that we don't know how to treat each other's interests with equal respect. And, as Dmitrich said , you don't have to be categorical in your judgments. I understand Omar's answer. But the IchMan post is an application for a postulate. And, if you remember why the battles flared up - again a dogmatic statement is expressed by a professional. Dear IchMan-entomology does not end only with taxonomy, and not everyone (take my word for it) in entomology is engaged only in groups where you can still describe something. And condescending and unfriendly attitude towards amateur does not contribute to understanding your point of view in any way.

Entomology is the most fun when doing it, you combine science, work, leisure, travel, and an interesting social circle.Entomology is similar to hunting and fishing.Expeditions-living in nature in different natural areas, landscapes-a great experience.Vysotsky sang-only mountains can be brighter than mountains.Read Le Cartoon "My Butterfly Hunt".How eager he was to go to French Guiana.How I lived in Paris.Both science and commerce.What an interesting life he had,how much he did for science.How to treat Romanov, Rothschild, Khrushchev, Aksakov, Bunin?

I didn't want to break spears here, I'm not in the mood to get involved in such unproductive disputes, I've already sworn off… But I don't want to be credited with something I've never said, so I'll write it again and hopefully I won't produce any more flooding.

And in what, dear Entalex, did you see an application for a postulate and dogmatic statements? Trying to support omar, I expressed my point of view on the subject. I know about entomology, which is exactly what I had in mind, as you can probably guess, firsthand. What makes you think I'm reducing all entomology to taxonomy? It's just that since I do it myself, it's closer to me.
Collecting insects, which I separate from science, was out of the question on my part, at least. In response, I heard that I was almost "a fool myself", because Miklukho-Maklay and others caught butterflies far from home - ??? What did I say-no one should go anywhere? Don't collect anywhere else? Read it again more carefully, the appeal was only not to forget your native fauna in the pursuit of exotics, I think it should somehow be closer. But some people for some reason took everything personally and almost as an encroachment on their rights.
And where did you see in my words condescension and ill-will towards lovers? Being an expert in the narrow field of entomology, I know the rest of the insect groups and it is at the level of an amateur, and I am not at all ashamed of this (we do not live in Iceland, tea). A large workshop on the fauna of different orders of insects was held at the university a long time ago, and many things that were not immediately claimed were already forgotten. And why would I visit this forum if your words were true? After all, in the group where I am a specialist, no one will help me here… But the fact is that I am interested in all insects to one degree or another and beyond my narrow specialization. In addition to this work, I am trying to participate in an inventory of the entomofauna of Eastern Fennoscandia (on Russian territory, mainly in Karelia). And here I can sometimes help in answering any questions that arise, including ordinary amateur entomologists. I live in an entomological province and I don't have the opportunity to constantly communicate with my colleagues in various groups, but I do have the Internet. I already roughly represent the level of forum regulars and am able to adequately assess their knowledge and ability to identify an insect from even not very good photos. I have already used them many times, and I hope that they will help me again in the future. I know both "professionals" with a level of knowledge below the baseboard, and amateurs, who are often able to give odds to other pros, and in this case, whether a person receives a salary for studying entomology or does it in his spare time is secondary to me. Only the level of his knowledge is important.

I agree with Gundorov that combining your favorite activity, etc. with work is a buzz, this is what you should ideally strive for, I myself once spent several years to achieve this goal, which I never regretted later.

2 rhopalocera.com
About gray nicknames and adherence to principles. Jumping out of the forum, I wrote then that these are my words. I will repeat once again: posts # 282-283 belong to me. You chose not to answer the questions, that's your right. And the quote from Matthew is completely out of place here, IMHO.

Dixi.

Ichman: I don't really understand why you think that collecting insects is not a science. Collecting insects is a subtle combination of science and art. Things are MUCH more complicated here. Without knowledge of the bare science (biology and ecology of the species), it is not possible to collect the desired species. To this is added the constant self-improvement in the mounting of insects, the endless pursuit of the ideal (even if unattainable). After all, for a purely scientific collection, it is not necessary to reject broken specimens, albeit rare species, and then do everything possible to catch a whole and unharmed insect.

Without knowledge of the bare science (biology and ecology of the species), it is not possible to collect the desired species.

It is not possible to collect-but it is possible to buy or exchange - without any knowledge.

Ichman: I don't really understand why you think that collecting insects is not a science.

Let me quote: "Science is a historically formed form of human activity aimed at cognition and transformation of objective reality, a spiritual production that results in purposefully selected and systematized facts, logically verified hypotheses, generalizing theories, fundamental and particular laws, as well as research methods."
Based on this, collecting itself is not a science. At best, a method.

Collecting insects is a subtle combination of science and art. Things are MUCH more complicated here. Without knowledge of the bare science (biology and ecology of the species), it is not possible to collect the desired species. To this is added the constant self-improvement in the mounting of insects, the endless pursuit of the ideal (even if unattainable).

There is no need to confuse the concepts. The application of scientific achievements and scientific knowledge in any branch of human activity does not make this branch itself a science. And in general, what does "naked science" mean? Self-improvement in the insect mount is not a promotion in science, but rather in craft.

After all, for a purely scientific collection, it is not necessary to reject broken specimens, albeit rare species, and then do everything possible to catch a whole and unharmed insect.

And for "purely amateur", in your opinion, this culling should be done? Oh lee! It depends on the individual choice. For example, I, like so many of my friends, never do such a cull for my personal collection. I absolutely agree with the respected Vlad Proklov, who recently said in the topic "Definition of butterflies": "But to throw out the material is an outrage!" Another thing is that the collection is "purely commercial" - for it, a broken copy is nothing.

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 27.09.2009 00: 19

Oh, what happened....God knows I didn't mean to. But I also don't want to tolerate groundless and extremely stupid attacks by Yakovlev off-topic just like that. Their value to the forum is so questionable that it sometimes overrides its noble knowledge of cossides. One "more Japanese than Russians" what is it worth

My friend Omar, I didn't call your words stupid, so why the hell are you writing about me like that? Doubtful is the value of reasoning about spreading moths, where, sorry, my friend, entomology does not smell. I was just glad for you that Omar stopped avoiding the necessity and interest of traveling to Papua and tropical Africa, despite the urgent need to dig in his garden in order to find a new species of leiodids for the south of Lyubertsy district. Try against your will to never call other people's words stupid - believe me, this will play into your hands. Thank you to Korolev and Korb for their support.
Now the people I respect from the Russian Federation are sitting in Zimbabwe and Vietnam, and they are leading Russian entomology in these areas - Vietnam, South Africa. This is certainly not the level of a new bembidion (with all due respect to bembidions, pterostichus, amaras, leiodides...) for the surrounding area of Kaluga, but still something. Regional faunalism is a great destination. I strongly support him. Why and why it is maniacal to oppose it to the study of tropical regions - I do not understand. What is worse than the zoogeographic analysis of Zimbabwe-that of the Vladimir region is not clear to me. The USSR was closed for many years, and most of our scientists thought that there was nothing outside the USSR... But time has changed. Many of us don't.
This is Yakovlev, so frankly stupid arguing with Omar. I'm sorry. Don't forget to take a picture of the moth from 16 sides. Please

Entomology is the most fun when doing it, you combine science, work, leisure, travel, and an interesting social circle.Entomology is similar to hunting and fishing.Expeditions-living in nature in different natural areas, landscapes-a great experience.Vysotsky sang-only mountains can be brighter than mountains.Read Le Cartoon "My Butterfly Hunt".How eager he was to go to French Guiana.How I lived in Paris.Both science and commerce.What an interesting life he had,how much he did for science.How to treat Romanov, Rothschild, Khrushchev, Aksakov, Bunin?

I don't know how to treat Khrushchev. This is Yakovlev. I can't log in

My friend Yakovlev, as always, you can't hear me. I have never denied and will continue to deny the benefits of traveling to the most interesting and remote corners of our planet. I only strongly object to the fact that a person, as soon as he appears in the entomological environment, having decided on a group or groups according to his interests, immediately rushes to the tropics or Pakistan, so dearly loved by you, completely ignoring the fauna of the region through which he walks every day. Moreover, he takes it as a credit to himself, proudly proving that what he brought from there is undoubtedly real happiness, and the fact that I don't know anything here and can't do it is nothing, here only suckers collect, and at my dacha I will somehow catch everything, maybe in my old age, and maybe not, if the hands do not reach, but it's okay, everyone can catch in the garden... This approach is certainly justified only in one case - if the studied group is distributed only in the tropics or in Pakistan due to zoogeographical reasons. Then, of course, one should live in Pakistan in general for the greater benefit of science. I'm sorry, I can't explain it more popularly, and it's been chewed ten times already, and you can't seem to swallow it. I'm sorry, my friend Yakovlev, but I don't have the energy to discuss this topic anymore. I will not answer this question further.

Maybe I repeat myself and this idea has already been expressed....
1. You need to study EVERYTHING AND EVERYWHERE, even on your six acres, even in South Africa
2. The dispute is smoothly reduced from regions to individuals
P.S. I would very much not like to divide the forum into super-pros and amateurs

In my opinion, this is an eternal topic.
What is beauty, the vessel, or the fire that glows in the vessel?
And everyone decides this for themselves in their own way.
You go to the same place from year to year, and every time it's different, it's gone, it's appeared, and another one appeared again after fifteen years, and sometimes it seems that you don't understand anything, but there are other places, and it's exactly the same, and year after year flies by, and at one point, you realize that you don't even have enough time for your "own garden", let alone for work...

I don't want to continue the topic, it's just an answer to your questions.

  
And where did you see in my words condescension and ill-will towards lovers?

On this forum, the vast majority of participants want to know nothing but Rhopalocera, Cerambycidae and Carabidae... Everything else is not very interesting, because it is too small or complicated "for a boy with a wooden head"...

Regarding the postulate - there is nothing wrong with your message. But the intonation is more like the cry of an unsatisfied soul. You don't take into account that most of the people here are amateurs. How many people have a lot of free time from work and family, good consultants, high-quality optics and the Lenin Library on the nose?
Do your favorite thing, describe new species, instill interest in the world of small insects among fans. The benefits and gratitude from your activities will be huge. But there is absolutely no need to "tear your hair out" and look for the only right way.
If I said something unpleasant - I apologize in advance!
I don't want to answer any more - I have no interest in continuing the topic of satisfying my ambitions.

It is not possible to collect-but it is possible to buy or exchange - without any knowledge.

This is no longer interesting and even somewhat vulgar!!!

Let me quote: "Science is a historically formed form of human activity aimed at cognition and transformation of objective reality, a spiritual production that results in purposefully selected and systematized facts, logically verified hypotheses, generalizing theories, fundamental and particular laws, as well as research methods."

In the practical collection of insects, not everything is logical

And for "purely amateur", in your opinion, this culling should be done? Oh lee! It depends on the individual choice. For example, I, like so many of my friends, never do such a cull for my personal collection. I absolutely agree with the respected Vlad Proklov, who recently said in the topic "Definition of butterflies": "But to throw out the material is an outrage!" Another thing is that the collection is "purely commercial" - for it, a broken copy is nothing.

To each his own... Personally I don't like to see broken copies in my collection

This is no longer interesting and even somewhat vulgar!!!

To each his own... Personally, I don't like to see broken copies in my collection

1) I agree, to each his own. And that is why you should not use the definition of "gone" in relation to the method of adding funds to the collection chosen by others. Suffice it to say that you are not personally interested in buying and changing (and thank God, by the way, I don't buy either, although I change, but I never judge those who decided to buy - it's their choice).
2) What does "unpleasant to see" mean? If we are guided by this, then from the Zinoviev collection it would be necessary to discard the specimens collected by the Great Ones in the old,old times! And if you are not happy to see broken specimens in your collection (and, as you said earlier, even rare ones are subject to culling if they are flawed), then the main purpose of collecting your collection is aesthetic. But what about science, the thirst for knowledge?

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 28.09.2009 00: 03

by the way, just the other day I had an interesting idea of how to make the collection have both an aesthetic and a scientific side. Namely, to divide the collection into 2 parts-the indicative (reference) and scientific parts.
The help desk will not have a large amount of material-from 1 copy, a couple and up to several of the type-perfect, well-straightened. This way it will be both very pleasant to watch and very convenient to view the collection and compare different views.
The second part will consist of the accumulated material-large series ( if necessary), which will serve more for research, references and other things. They can not be straightened, they can be without paws and whiskers ))

here is such a strange suggestion, but in my opinion the result may not be bad for those who are interested in both sides of the collection.
I would have done it myself, but I don't have enough material and series yet for such a division.

And so, by the way, they often do. Quite a sensible decision, IMHO.
The only thing is that more often they are selected for the" reference " list not on the whole/broken principle, but in order to present the species composition as fully as possible (usually no more than 5-6 copies for each species). Everything that remains is put up in another place.
Well, which copy to put where, then everyone decides for himself.

This post was edited by Fornax13-28.09.2009 00: 42

This is no longer interesting and even somewhat vulgar!!!

I don't even have any questions - if the material is needed for work and there is an opportunity to buy it, then I will buy it.

Another thing is that my animals are either not collected or they are too expensive for Ph. D., S. N. S.

This post was edited by Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg - 09/28/2009 12: 09

I don't even have any questions - if the material is needed for work and there is an opportunity to buy it, then I will buy it.

And this, in my opinion, is not even subject to discussion . If you need it for work, then you need it, and that's it. After all, I did not talk about this before, but about amateur collections. Here, everyone has the right to choose the formation method. And if the majority, unlike me, buys the material, then why should I think that they are doing the wrong thing (as, in other respects, they are in relation to me)? They want to buy, and they buy; I don't want to, and I don't do it. But that doesn't make their collection any less interesting to me. Although, when you view the collections made by the owner of the collection, you listen to his explanations firsthand... Agree, there is a special flavor here. And again (I repeat): perhaps my opinion is controversial, but the issue of reliability and accuracy of labeling the purchased material is relevant.

I support you! For me personally, content matters only if I know the collector well and am sure that he is a sincere person. How can you buy from a Chinese person you see for the first time? What kind of reliability of the label can we talk about in this case?

I support you! For me personally, content matters only if I know the collector well and am sure that he is a sincere person. How can you buy from a Chinese person you see for the first time? What kind of reliability of the label can we talk about in this case?

I almost totally support this, but why is it so bad about the Chinese?
Confusion in labels is common, unfortunately.
If you come to bursa or buy by mail, it is difficult for me to think of a way to control this process. For example, there is a completely unknown dealer and offers very interesting material. And you need it. Well, how to brush it off...
In general, the strongest cheating happens at African dealers. But they rarely offer scientific material. Mostly large beetles, although in this case the exact label does not hurt.

I don't even have any questions - if the material is needed for work and there is an opportunity to buy it, then I will buy it.

Another thing is that my animals are either not collected or they are too expensive for Ph. D., S. N. S.

What kind of band do you have????

I almost totally support this, but why is it so bad about the Chinese?
Confusion in labels is common, unfortunately.
If you come to bursa or buy by mail, it is difficult for me to think of a way to control this process. For example, there is a completely unknown dealer and offers very interesting material. And you need it. Well, how to brush it off...
In general, the strongest cheating happens at African dealers. But they rarely offer scientific material. Mostly large beetles, although in this case the exact label does not hurt.

I agree, and I am ready to stand up for the Chinese in this matter. They label their material in great detail, even if it refers to commercially significant species and "not encouraged" to be collected. The only special feature is that they almost never specify the collector (apparently followers of Elez, as well). And from the"black" continent, if the date is specified, and in addition to the country, its region is the limit of dreams.

What kind of band do you have????

Cockroaches, mantises, and earwigs...

In general, the strongest cheating happens at African dealers. But they rarely offer scientific material. Mostly large beetles, although in this case the exact label does not hurt.

Wouldn't it hurt?" That's putting it mildly! But for me, any beetle, if it is without an exact label (not all the necessary data are indicated), loses at least 50% of its collection value, and if it is without a label at all, then I don't need it. We are talking about the absence of claws, mustache segments, and the label will be more important!

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 29.09.2009 14: 39

Wouldn't it hurt?" That's putting it mildly! But for me, any beetle, if it is without an exact label (not all the necessary data are indicated), loses at least 50% of its collection value, and if it is without a label at all, then I don't need it. We are talking about the absence of claws, mustache segments, and the label will be more important!

IMHO, you are also somewhat going to the extreme. For example, old material is often labeled "Turkestan", " Brit. India" or "Brasilia". And these are all types... There are also cases of obviously erroneous labels.

Real-life examples.
I. A successful top executive who left his corporate job overnight and became a traveler. His material level collapsed, but the man himself finally felt the fullness of life, found his dream.

Wouldn't it hurt?" That's putting it mildly! But for me, any beetle, if it is without an exact label (not all the necessary data are indicated), loses at least 50% of its collection value, and if it is without a label at all, then I don't need it. We are talking about the absence of claws, mustache segments, and the label will be more important!

I also do not need no label, more claws will be broken off than without a label, the claws can be glued or drawn in Photoshop (if the beetle is photographed for some purpose)and there is no label and everything is lost, you can't guess it, imagine a person's grave in the cemetery and nodpisano is questionable

This post was edited by Liparus - 09/29/2009 23: 45

I have repeatedly bought from the Chinese-the material is very decent and the labels are very good.
Unfortunately, dealers from Africa (Africans) label the material terribly, which is compensated by the wonderful Europeans who work there and send excellent quality material. On my last visit to Munich, I was taken aback by the collection of German electrical engineer Heinz Polizar (now deceased) that ZSSM received. The man spent his entire life servicing the power plants of some German corporation in Africa. I came across some amazing materials that cover the whole of Africa, except for the south, in a dense carpet of dots. A new genus, about a dozen new species (including from Somalia, Mauritania) and a lot of rare species. I will try to perpetuate the memory of this beautiful collector as much as possible with two specific and one generic epithets.
And the labels are cool!

to SIVKOVDM-commercial interest......???? Hardly....... Collecting insects,in particular butterflies, is such a thing - here the commercial side of the issue goes hand in hand with the scientific one. and there are no labels - scientific value = 0.....
I'd just keep it for myself. like a family heirloom ! maybe soaked, but outweighed from the sunny side, that would be less faded.

to SIVKOVDM-commercial interest......???? Hardly....... Collecting insects,in particular butterflies, is such a thing - here the commercial side of the issue goes hand in hand with the scientific one. and there are no labels - scientific value = 0.....
I'd just keep it for myself. like a family heirloom ! maybe soaked, but outweighed from the sunny side, that would be less faded.

That's not necessary: commercial and scientific collectibles don't overlap at all!

MAY THE GREAT MODERATOR FORGIVE me !
Again verbiage........ et about the previous post.
Well, explain to me, stupid, what is "commercial collecting"? I always thought that commerce is an activity aimed at making a profit.......
and what is the profit - I am a collector, bought-exchanged-sold-bought and as a result
put a wonderful butterfly in my collection. and where is the profit ??? my deep inner satisfaction ? oh yeah! It costs 500 kilobucks. minimum!!!

Denis, in your case, "profit" is the copy itself. purchased in the collection and, of course, self-satisfaction

"Oh, shit, that's really good. Good. my profit is self - satisfaction, for sure. and consider the option - I'm Dr. Skryabin write Afigitelnoe work well-u - u on
any bukeshkam. I'm giving birth to almost a new theory of speciation! Darwin etaki. New. and to complete the work of all zhisty have to buy materialchik..... well, 500 bucks ??? for example..... and this is the FINAL ! The work has been published and is indisputably recognized by all bug experts on the planet !!!!!! and nominated for an award. The Nobel Prize ? maybe even.?
And they did !!!! lemon evra !
And who am I after that.....???? A huckster. from science. Profit per person. REAL !!!!
invested 500 rubles. withdrew 1,000,000 rubles. that's ten percent of the profit, huh ?
Ka-aroche don't agitate me for the Soviet power ! And Basta.

Moderator, I'm sorry !!!!! I won't do it again !!!!! ches word!

It seems to me that commercial collectibles (or better, I would call collecting) not that it doesn't overlap with scientific collecting, but rather follows from scientific collecting. When you spend years collecting materials from the same territory for ecological samples, and then suddenly realize that certain types are valuable, it's a pity to throw them out, and there's no need. Then insects collected with the help of crown and soil traps listed in the annotated lists after that, can already become a "bargaining chip", whether it is an exchange or a sale. The goal is still the same-the entomologist spends money on entomology in order to finance owl trips. But when they just baryzhno rake in species only from commercial benefits and spit on everything,then this is pure commerce. But most of the entomologists who live here in the evolutionary plan are one step higher, those who have reached enlightenment are engaged in a noble cause, occasionally they sell or exchange excess. Only the laws are equal for everyone. In general, the line is very thin. And forgive me for the ooftop.

P.S. I distribute my reindeer to children in a circle. They have them framed. I teach that nature should be treated with care, that insects can be drawn, photographed, bred in captivity and only collected as a last resort. And that any insect that you killed without eiiketki you killed in vain. So, the younger generation is growing up, which at the university, I hope, will be able to distinguish a black heifer from a ground beetle and will supply their collection fees with labels.

Back to the topic. I'll have to take a picture of something, too. And the collections of the 19th and 20th centuries look very good aesthetically. And they will be of interest to the soul, so to speak-also not bad. But it's better when everything is labeled. Pros will not buy material without labels, unless they are amateurs, but they are unlikely to want to pay the real price

This post was edited by Trofim - 11/30/2009 17: 37

Let's not argue. Many scientists buy insects, because not everything can be caught and exchanged, but it is necessary to study )
And very few people will collect a group that is not of interest to them in order to give it to scientists. But a lot of people do it for money.
Therefore, commerce and professional entomology are linked.
Let's face it - right now, all human activity is connected to commerce.

I didn't understand anything from the dispute about scientific and commercial collecting. That is, if a person pays money for the material - this is commercial collecting.... This is stupid. In entomology, material was always bought and sold (even before Linnaeus). And there's nothing special about it. There have always been professional collectors-hunters, there have always been armchair scientists, there has always been an army of amateur collectors

It's not bad if such a collection gets to the museum, at least with some information.

Very sound judgment! It is not easy to sell these boxes at a high price, to put it mildly. And if the owner doesn't really need them, then giving them to a good museum is just the thing!

I didn't understand anything from the dispute about scientific and commercial collecting. That is, if a person pays money for the material - this is commercial collecting....

No one said that. No, not necessarily (although it is possible).

I would say this: there are scientific collections, and there are... unscientific ones. IMHO, the collection under discussion is a fairly typical example of the latter. Why such a collection is needed for a museum is not clear to me.