Concept of development of protected areas of the Russian Federation until 2020

I think that it can, because I myself have repeatedly observed it in the blueberry forests, where blueberries did not smell.

Certain subspecies, according to the Study, can also live on blueberries. I haven't seen any of them in Russia. There were blueberries everywhere sineno flew. It's just hard to find it sometimes. Butterflies often do not fly where they are hatched.

Certain subspecies, according to the Study, can also live on blueberries. I haven't seen any of them in Russia. There were blueberries everywhere sineno flew. It's just hard to find it sometimes. Butterflies often do not fly where they are hatched.

well, you can't say that blueberries grow in the steppes, can you? and palaeno does fly! it still seems to me that this is not such a narrow monophage...

Palaeno in Siberia feeds on any Vaciinium. If the forage plant disappeared, then the palaeno naturally disappeared. The question is what it eats "in the steppe" near Omsk and Novosibirsk. I have a strong opinion about serdobskaya euryala - I don't believe it. Two strong "contraindications" - and the subspecies is not the same, and the biotope is not suitable. Where it came from in the collection is a mystery, but it is better not to seriously think that it was found near Serdobsk in the 60s.

There is another (less powerful) counterargument about the Serdobsky euryale. In all habitats, without exception, it is a mass species. The locus may be a point, but there will be clouds of it. This is the case in the Carpathian Mountains, and it is the same with c jenisseiensis in the Novosibirsk region.

Palaeno in Siberia feeds on any Vaciinium.

Let us know who was watching and where. That would be a revelation. No kidding.

I have a strong opinion about serdobskaya euryala - I don't believe it. Two strong "contraindications" - and the subspecies is not the same, and the biotope is not suitable. Where it came from in the collection is a mystery, but it is better not to seriously think that it was found near Serdobsk in the 60s.

I have already written that biocenoses are changing, and certain stations are disappearing. We don't have half of the high swamps that we had 100 years ago. Blueberries are gone, cranberries, wild rosemary and other plants of the "taiga zone" are disappearing. There is a global succession going on. We also have a forest-steppe region, however, "taiga islands" still remain inside large areas of mixed forest (for example, in Verkhnevoronezh). There are still chances even for Lipetsk euryals. Hardly, though. Late...

Let us know who was watching and where. That would be a revelation. No kidding.

Korshunov has Vaccinium uliginosum, V. vitis-idaea, and Vicia amoena.
Lvovsky and Morgun have grapes and blueberries.

This post was edited by Konung - 29.01.2012 15: 17

To hell with the Euryals, this is an empty argument. There is also the same "Vitebsk", also from the 60s and also from the collection of a single honest collector. When the collection opens (now the museum is under repair), I'll see who the catcher is. Although near Vitebsk (in polutaezhka), its detection is 99% more likely than near Serdobsk, And, unfortunately, it is very Carpathian in appearance and genitals. East-Russian and Carpathian populations are very different, and it is difficult to confuse them. To the upper marshes, since they have been preserved, euryala has nothing to do with anything, so look for jutta, pales (aquilonaris), eunomia and freya. Euryala has a very different biotope - dry mixed grass meadows on the edges of coniferous forest and woodlands, in the mountains there are also grassy slopes above the forest border.
As for palaeno, according to Korshunov's personal observations (2002), "it places eggs ... on the leaves of Vaccinium uliginosum, V. vitis-idaea". In the Novosibirsk region, "this species is typical of taiga biocenoses and upper swamps, since its caterpillars develop on lingonberry trees, but in different regions individual individuals are found in a wide variety of biotopes, even practically treeless ones "(Dubatolov and Kosterin, 1999). However, whether it lives on blueberries (V. myrtillus), I did not find a direct indication.
But what is interesting - for palaeno in open biotopes - Yurinsky (1907) in Irkutsk observed laying on the leaves of Vicia amoena.

This post was edited by sergenicko - 29.01.2012 15: 50

Korshunov has Vaccinium uliginosum, V. vitis-idaea, and Vicia amoena.
Lvovsky and Morgun have grapes and blueberries.

Perhaps Korshunov and Morgun "copied" the data from European data, and in Russia everything is, as usual,"wrong". I've seen peatlands everywhere, laying their eggs only on blueberries. At the same time, there were also lingonberries and cranberries in the area. Observed in Eastern Siberia, Altai and Primorye. It is necessary to look at specific places in the summer, what they are putting off for. Blueberries sometimes form single curtains, among the" fields " of lingonberries and cranberries. Females "curl" only near them! I found freshly laid eggs.

  
But what is interesting - for palaeno in open biotopes - Yurinsky (1907) in Irkutsk observed laying on the leaves of Vicia amoena.

Cool! Maybe it's not singe, but a doppelganger species? Example: hiale-alfakariensis. Paleno can be expected to develop on rosaceae, but on Viaceae... It is necessary to look at the preimaginal stages. Possible new view.

Or maybe it was tyche? It is very easy to confuse a flying female tyche with that of a paleno, especially when observed from afar...

Western European data is unambiguous-blueberries, it is possible that this is the case throughout Europe. Korshunov described his own observations, which are always accurate. I don't have any text for Blinker. Blueberries are not directly mentioned by anyone, but if they are on blueberries, and on lingonberries, then probably on blueberries. Perhaps "preferably on blueberries". Dubatolov-Streltsov (2005) has blueberries for the Far East (and Transbaikalia).

This post was edited by sergenicko - 29.01.2012 16: 34

Here, I found it on blueberries - on an Italian website http://www.leps.it/indexjs.htm?SpeciesPages/ColiasPalae.htm. This is a compilation, but they copied it from someone else.

Here is a serious site, Swedish lepidopterologists, Vaccinium myrtillus, Vaccinium uliginosum. http://www.lepidoptera.se/species/colias_palaeno.aspx.

Okay, let's continue our observations in nature. We have moved away from the topic of protected areas.

In Norway, it is only marked (!) on blueberries http://www.lepidoptera.no/en/vertsplanter/?or_id=280

In Lithuania, it seems to be only on blueberries http://www.macrogamta.lt/e107_plugins/cont...php?content.202

So blueberries and blueberries for sure, one Kite was observed on cowberries. But I watched it accurately. You can use your diaries to find out where.

Cool! Maybe it's not singe, but a doppelganger species? Example: hiale-alfakariensis. Paleno can be expected to develop on rosaceae, but on Viaceae... It is necessary to look at the preimaginal stages. A new view is possible.

The females don't look alike. The new look is a joke. But what Omsk palenos eat in an open field, you need to find out.

Okay, let's continue our observations in nature. We have moved away from the topic of protected areas.

The composition and ecology of the fauna, on the contrary, are close.

The females don't look alike. The new look is a joke. But what Omsk palenos eat in an open field, you need to find out.

Well, if the topic continues, I note that the "old" females tyche and paleno in flight are still similar, and you can make a mistake.
As for the twin species, there are not so few of them, and new ones are constantly being described. A classic example: alfakariensis and lugovaya yellows. It is necessary to work on preimaginal stages. A lot of interesting things will open. Nothing can be rejected a priori.
As for Omsk paleno, there are also pegs. There may be blueberries in the pegs. We need to look for her, watch the females. And everything will be found out!

In the Omsk region, there is at least a subtaiga with upper swamps, forests, and associated fauna. Therefore, C. palaeno can easily fly into the forest-steppe there - and by the way, there are also extrazonal taiga islands in it. But S. tyche is the northern taiga and mountains of Southern Siberia. So, no closer to Altai. But mountain species live in the southern mountains at altitudes where the taiga belt is. They will never come down and fly across the steppes.
By the way, in optium aroeal butterflies are more eurytopic, in pessimum - more stenotopic. Hence, where it is more eurytopian , there is a wider food supply, confinement and migration mobility. And don't be surprised that in Siberia the taiga species turns out to be an oligophagus, and in Europe, where the settlement from Siberia was at the limit and the taiga was not in such an optimum, it is a monophagus (or only a potential oligophagus consisting of coenopopulations of actual monophages - somewhere it is used to blueberries, somewhere to blueberries).
Finally, if a stray butterfly has nowhere to lay its eggs, it can do so anywhere. Question: what is the fate of eggs laid on completely different plants in nature? If in a cage and you can sometimes achieve development on the wrong plant, then in nature it is extremely unlikely.

Well, if the topic continues, I note that the "old" females tyche and paleno in flight are still similar, and you can make a mistake.

Who knows? But, most likely, the author caught the butterfly and identified it in vitro. In addition, tyche is a monophage, living only on astragalus.

As for the twin species, there are not so few of them, and new ones are constantly being described. A classic example: alfakariensis and lugovaya yellows. It is necessary to work on preimaginal stages. A lot of interesting things will open. Nothing can be rejected a priori.

There is a lot of uncertainty about alfacariensis. 1) It is not obvious that our jaundice ("saretensis Alph.") is the same taxon that Verity had in mind - the differences between hyale and" saretensis "are not at all the same as in the South European hyale and"australis". 2) It has not been proven that Western European hyale and alfacariensis are different species. They do not differ in genitalia and premarginal stages, and external differences in the series can be attributed either to population variability, or to active hybridization with erate (hybrids are apparently infertile, but they appear en masse every year). 3) To the east of the Urals, these two species do not differ - the definitions of alfacariensis were made ad hoc, and in some cases according to the signs of "sareptensis", and in others - according to the signs of" Australis" (!). I worked on them, understanding the rich material in the Novosibirsk region and its environs. Here, as well as in the Omsk region, in Northern Kazakhstan and, as far as I know, in the Southern Urals, there is one species, C. hyale.
Another thing is such pairs as britomartis-aurelia, ilia-metis, niobe-adippe, sinapis-reali (now it seems that the 2nd one should be called differently) - when living together, the differences are sharper than in places where only one species from the pair occurs.

As for Omsk paleno, there are also pegs. There may be blueberries in the pegs. We need to look for her, watch the females. And everything will be found out!

This, of course, was found out, see Kosterin-Ponomarev.

The differences between hiale and alfacariensis have been proven long ago and by many. Including preimaginal stages. Photos from the site www.ukbutterflies.co.uk. Chyale caterpillar on the left, alfakariensis on the right.

Pictures:

9c682d40e5e6e7157e693e43c257e7a0.jpg — (409.87к)

But S. tyche is the northern taiga and mountains of Southern Siberia. So, no closer to Altai. But mountain species live in the southern mountains at altitudes where the taiga belt is. They will never come down and fly across the steppes.

It was about the Irkutsk paleno, which could be confused in flight with tyche. Both types are there.

The differences between hiale and alfacariensis have been proven long ago and by many. Including preimaginal stages. Photos from the site www.ukbutterflies.co.uk. Chyale caterpillar on the left, alfakariensis on the right.

In England, there is no Australis, " Relatively good numbers were seen each year from 1947 to 1949. However, such numbers have not been recorded since and this species is now considered one of our rarest migrants.... The latest-ever sighting of this scarce species was at Glynde, East Sussex on 27th October 1945". This means that the caterpillar of at least alfacariensis is not English, i.e. the comparative photo is somehow a fraud. The Italian and French sites talk about the difference between imagos, and much more vaguely than in English (where it's just a quote from Higgins), but nothing about the difference between caterpillars. The distinctive features of the imago of the Southern European hyale and alfacariensis have little in common with the distinctive features of hyale and sareptensis. The identification of alfacariensis=saretensis seems to be mechanical. We need to re-understand both the imago and the caterpillars.

Good. Here is the material of one of the participants of molbiol. Khiale and alfakariensis in Kharkiv region. http://kharkovbut.narod.ru/hyale.html

Во Франции практически нет hyale -- "Hyale seems to be quite scarce in France, and I am not sure this was always the case, so maybe it is diminishing, but identification problems probably preclude any such conclusions." http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html/Co...facariensis.htm. "The larvae are different", but since there is no hiale in France, the difference is not clear between whom. The same situation is in Italy, where hyale is sought out in the north solely for external signs, and the difference between the caterpillars is not mentioned. In Europe, north of the Alps, it is exclusively hyale (some people are trying to find alfakariensis there, but all this is done ad hoc). All Europeans unanimously cite the "reliable" coexistence of both species in Southern Russia, which justifies the specific difference between the yolks. However, the" classical " (Higgins) scheme for distinguishing hyale and alfacariensis (read, between northern and southern European hyales) for Yu. It doesn't work in Russia. So, most likely, there are 2 subspecies in Europe with a zone of coexistence of subspecies. And we need to deal with ours again!

Good. Here is the material of one of the participants of molbiol. Khiale and alfakariensis in Kharkiv region. http://kharkovbut.narod.ru/hyale.html

I do not know any Ukrainian egg yolks, except for the Carpathian ones - there is 1 species, nominative hyale, the caterpillars are variable. In the Novosibirsk hyale, the caterpillars are also variable, from mottled to green without a pattern. There are many different images on the Ukrainian site, but there is no evidence that alfakariensis and green chyale grow from variegated caterpillars. I don't want to suspect my colleagues of fraud, but I'm afraid they looked at European sites and "identified" caterpillars and butterflies separately. I am not aware of any papers that prove that caterpillars with different patterns are distributed according to the adult's habits. Rather, they are distributed, but hegoraphically, and not sympatrically

This post was edited by sergenicko - 29.01.2012 22: 19

But Kharkovbut figured it out! And Voronezh entomologists dealt with local hiale and alfakariensis. Large differences in imago in the series, caterpillars radically different, pupae... Different stations: khyale has meadows, and alfakariensis has dry steppe "uvalys" and various forage plants. Clearly two different views.

I do not know any Ukrainian egg yolks, except for the Carpathian ones - there is 1 species, nominative hyale, the caterpillars are variable. In the Novosibirsk hyale, the caterpillars are also variable, from mottled to green without a pattern. There are many different images on the Ukrainian site, but there is no evidence that alfakariensis and green chyale grow from variegated caterpillars. I don't want to suspect my colleagues of fraud, but I'm afraid they looked at European sites and "identified" caterpillars and butterflies separately. I am not aware of any papers that prove that caterpillars with different patterns are distributed according to the adult's habits. Rather, they are distributed geographically, but not sympatrically. Northern European caterpillars (rather) without a pattern, Southern European ones are (rather) mottled.

But Kharkovbut figured it out! And Voronezh entomologists dealt with local hiale and alfakariensis. Large differences in imago in the series, caterpillars radically different, pupae... Different stations: khyale has meadows, and alfakariensis has dry steppe "uvalys" and various forage plants. Clearly two different views.

I'm ready to believe it if I see a publication with evidence. Give us the link. In general, the features listed above are not specific, but characterize ecological subspecies.

Here's a picture of Europe:
http://www.lepidoptera.pl/show.php?ID=11
and
http://www.lepidoptera.pl/show.php?ID=15&country=RU.
Same differences.
There were a lot of publications on this topic. I'll give you the links tomorrow. I need to sleep tonight...

Here's a picture of Europe:
http://www.lepidoptera.pl/show.php?ID=11
and
http://www.lepidoptera.pl/show.php?ID=15&country=RU.
Same differences.
There were a lot of publications on this topic. I'll give you the links tomorrow. I need to sleep tonight...

Thank you, I've known this site for a long time. According to it (pictures), caterpillars co-exist in Slovakia. Poles give both species just in case, in Poland there is no alfakariensis (and in the Balkans and Turkey, hiale.) I questioned Slovaks to see if the differences between caterpillars and butterflies were proven to be related. They replied that this is considered a common place, but no one checked it in Slovakia. As far as I understand, no one has checked in France, but they are engaged in separate distribution of imago and caterpillars-despite the fact that they practically do not have hyale http://www.scribd.com/xmerit/d/20684937-BL...e-alfacariensis. I'm not against alfacariensis - I just want to know for sure that mottled caterpillars in the same area are born strictly A., and from pale ones strictly X. That's what I need. And I still haven't been able to find it anywhere.
Goodnight!

But Kharkovbut figured it out! And Voronezh entomologists dealt with local hiale and alfakariensis. Large differences in imago in the series, caterpillars radically different, pupae... Different stations: khyale has meadows, and alfakariensis has dry steppe "uvalys" and various forage plants. Clearly two different views.

Well, here the main merit belongs to okoem... Here is a link to our publication: http://babochki-kryma.narod.ru/files/lib/K...Rhopalocera.pdf

And here is a rich discussion on this issue (starting with message 236): http://molbiol.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=214195&st=200

Well, here the main merit belongs to okoem... Here is a link to our publication: http://babochki-kryma.narod.ru/files/lib/K...Rhopalocera.pdf

And here is a rich discussion on this issue (starting with message 236): http://molbiol.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=214195&st=200

Females of hiale and alfakariensis are almost indistinguishable (as far as I remember, and in ultraviolet light). The article says that caterpillars were bred from eggs, but did they not grow up to the imago? Is there a fact of breeding from sympatric caterpillars, from pale - adult males with signs of hyale and from variegated adult males with signs of alfacariensis?

Females of hiale and alfakariensis are almost indistinguishable (as far as I remember, and in ultraviolet light). The article says that caterpillars were bred from eggs, but did they not grow up to the imago? Is there a fact of breeding from sympatric caterpillars, from pale - adult males with signs of hyale and from variegated adult males with signs of alfacariensis?

sergenicko: Read the topic "Colias" on the forum at the link above. Post 236 asks a riddle, and post 267 asks a clue + discussion about the correlation of caterpillar traits with adult traits. However, the signs of adults (even males), imho, are not guaranteed to be diagnostic. However, there is a certain correlation. Okoem might add something.

I will also add that the caterpillars grew up to the imago, and these imagos were also used in the riddle from post 236.

This post was edited by Kharkovbut - 29.01.2012 23: 49

PS: It would be nice to move this discussion (if it continues) to the topic "Colias"...

Is there a fact of breeding from sympatric caterpillars, from pale - adult males with signs of hyale and from variegated adult males with signs of alfacariensis?

There is. I displayed the series. Imagos are quite similar, but the difference is still noticeable.
In addition to the appearance of caterpillars, species differ in food plants.
For me personally, the question of the specific independence of these two types is closed.

PS: It would be nice to move this discussion (if it continues) to the topic "Colias"...

The discussion was accidentally formed, and smoothly flowed from Serdobskaya erebia to Kharkiv zheltushki. I watched "riddle" and "solution" there, and it didn't convince me. Until I am convinced that the habit of caterpillars is strictly correlated with the habit of males, I will remain of the opinion that in Europe Colias hyale has 2 good subspecies - hyale and alphacariensis, conditionally north-western and south-eastern, which consistently differ in the set of imaginal and preimaginal primates and features of biology. There is a wide "zone of uncertainty" between the ranges, in which subspecies co-exist, partly preserving specific somatic and ecological differences, while actively hybridizing, and their offspring are fertile. The transition zone includes black earth steppes in the Volga and Don basins, Black Sea steppes, and steppes south of the Carpathians (southern Slovakia and Hungarian Pushta). Outside of this zone, subspecies are represented in pure form and do not occur-with the exception of flights and migration results, to which alfacariensis is prone.

Goodnight!

This post was edited by sergenicko - 30.01.2012 00: 09

There is a wide "zone of uncertainty" between the ranges, in which subspecies co-exist, partly preserving specific somatic and ecological differences, while actively hybridizing, and their offspring are fertile.

Backfill question: is this just a hypothesis, or is there specific data?