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30.10.2009 22:29, А.Й.Элез

If you think that the countries of foreign mentality are an example of the correct correlation between the price and the buyer's wallet, please tell a person with a local mentality:
1. Is it allowed to set prices for goods there before obtaining consent to these prices from all persons interested in the product? Or (except in cases of specially subsidized products) there is enough market regulator, "voting with a wallet"?
2. Is it allowed to carry out counterfeit distribution of even superscientific products without the consent of the copyright holder? The legal regulation of this area is limited to lamentations on forums (with a call under capitalism to distribute scientific products in a socialist way - as if some other product is not for people, but for Martians!) or does it include more stringent measures of influence?
3. Is it clear which questions I asked and which ones I didn't ask?

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 31.10.2009 04: 24

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30.10.2009 22:43, А.Й.Элез

A. Y. Elezu
I don't sell books. I don't have a registered legal entity, I don't have the right to engage in trade, I don't want to bother with paying sales taxes on the one hand, but I also don't want to break a number of laws on the other.

You don't need to register your face. A whole host of bookselling firms work directly and with authors who publish privately. True, then the book goes well from them, if not to the next dealers, but immediately to the store, and then it's hard to look at the prices after all this without valerian. As for the reluctance to break the law - I agree with you one hundred percent and hope that your opinion will be listened to by the supporters of counterfeit goods among us.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 31.10.2009 04: 40

30.10.2009 23:02, А.Й.Элез

The WHO figures (at least in our country) came up when they began to believe that a book should be much more expensive than a bottle of vodka, and not vice versa. And you don't need to get wrapped up in this evil bourgeoisie. On the ground, we will do it ourselves.

We are not talking about "wine" (in science such a question is not raised at all, this is for moralists), but about communicating vessels and where the money is.

Those WHO figures for the world are terrible (which I mentioned) were back in the days of the USSR, when the list of neocolonial countries has not yet been replenished. And even now these figures are there without taking us into account-God forbid. The third World is a very sad world, and there our discussions would sound blasphemous. And you refer all to the well-fed"zarubezh". However, I don't know exactly what turning point you had in mind when you said about the ratio of prices for vodka and books. If we consider "perestroika", then after all, Bryusova's album on Russian painting of the XVII century under socialism went in denominations of 25 rubles (and from under the floor-and I do not dare to say) at the price of even 4 p. 12 k. for the steepest vodka ("Extra", and even then it was deciphered for its price as "Oh, How Difficult It Became for a Russian Alcoholic"). And in terms of quality, this particular book (and not "Malaya Zemlya") is similar to, say, the last volumes of Toropov and Zhdanko. Of course, we could not print an album about 17th-century paintings in Italy, and Levitan's album (1973, I think, the price is 30 rubles) could not be printed in Austria, and many other masterpieces of publishing art could be covered up altogether, but continue to drive products at the long-outdated level of color separation and printing and do not care that in these years, such a book would have looked like a dirty watchdog among the Dalmatians... So the book is different from the book. And today, for Dontsova's books, no one will think to demand quality as for the Atlas-determinant. And today her books are lying around much cheaper than vodka, so not everything is so flat. Some books are designed for a small circle of readers, while others are designed for a large one. Mark Twain also said that there are far more fools in every city than smart ones.

I repeat once again: what one system could give, it is absurd to demand from a completely different one. When you take your head off, you don't cry for your hair. And if there is a head, there will be shaggy hair.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 10/30/2009 23: 10

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31.10.2009 4:29, А.Й.Элез

And is literature now divided into commercial and scientific (and, M. B., some other)? I used to think that scientific (fiction, educational, art, religion, pornography, etc.) is a division by content, and commercial - a characteristic of the economic conditions for creating and selling a book. So your dichotomy is lame. And, whatever kind of literature (scientific, artistic, etc.) the book belongs to, it can be either commercial or non-commercial. However, I did not come across the second type under capitalism. You can, of course, consider (very conditionally) non-commercial literature advertising printed products, election leaflets or free bibles, but the cost of this "non-commercial" foam is so repeatedly painted according to the price tags of the stores we go to, throughout our lives, that it costs us a pretty penny, maybe steeper than any atlas-determinants. And the entire main body of literature (scientific, religious, pornographic, etc.) under capitalism is one hundred percent commercial, but what else?

Only not everywhere it is noticeable, and somewhere it is completely covered by subsidies, but again not at the expense of the holy spirit. No one bothers to rummage through the websites of foreign publishers and see what prices there are for scientific literature at what quality (scientific and publishing), so as not to pass off as normal the fact that, perhaps, one of several dozen books is specifically sponsored and, as a result, cheaper at retail. In 1980 or 1981, I was sent from Würtzee (near Munich) a two - volume book "Who's Who in Germany", where there are no illustrations at all, although the printing level is the highest (they did not save money, although the text could have been published at the level of the current soft-skinned annual guide to Moscow). The selling price of a two-volume book then, in my opinion, in pupaars exceeded two hundred. I remind you that the pupaar of that time and the current pupaar are heaven and earth. So, what's the bazaar about? From Oxford University Press in the same years, while still a student, I received scientific literature: a book as thick as Cornelio's atlas, and a slightly larger format (like Koch or Tatarinov) in a binding and dust jacket (why is it, say, in a book on philosophy???) it cost $ 32. Of those days! And the pages there are thicker (and why should a scientist need their thickness?) than they are accepted in our country, and the font is larger, and the text there fits less than in the text part of the Russian-language atlas of Tykach. And the author clearly did not spend money on expeditions to the Mongolian gullies to write this philosophical book... Bound books in the West are considered a symbol of not just prosperity, but very good prosperity. Well-off libraries do not deny themselves them, but scientists almost always buy "paperback versions" of scientific books in their home libraries, which are much cheaper. But not all literature gets into paperback. I say this for those who want to interrupt a critical conversation about local prices with an enthusiastic cry about local salaries.

For those who still remember about the growing "local salaries", I will inform you that for such products, taking into account the poverty of our population will not encourage publishers, authors and everyone involved in the preparation of the book to work at a loss or deny themselves a profit. No one will work for you, people are forced to spend money somewhere, and you will not pay for their lives. The only thing for which prices can be maintained, taking into account the purchasing power of the low-paid strata, is for those necessary products, the unavailability of which can eliminate the monarchy in Petrograd within three days. But not on the oenomological literature. In addition, the fact that the prices announced to us for the last few publications are too high is complete nonsense, I repeat once again. Normal prices; anyone who has already purchased the first volume of Toropov and Zhdanko will confirm this. And even with an overdose, he will not advise you to degrade its printing performance for the sake of a small reduction in price and turn the richly illustrated atlas into a list (like in 1976 on the lepidoptera of Belarus), but with illustrations where color creeps on color (as in Arakcheevskaya's "In Search of Apollo").

Lower prices are possible thanks to sponsorship, subsidizing - even if this is hidden, but it is naive to consider the low price in such cases the result of the altruism of bourgeois publishing houses or the non-possessiveness of authors who are ready to go on foreign expeditions on foot and hungry for years. I am sure that any campaigner for the accessibility of scientific literature who offers anyone from entomologists and publishers the means to cover the publication and all the huge work on its preparation (i.e., expeditions, work in museums in different countries with tens of thousands of copies of material, etc.) can count on a positive reaction and on consent to reduce the price of books to our full satisfaction. The position is stated, the case is now behind the case. Not somewhere where you have a bunch of "examples", but here. Hic Rhodus, hic salta! Create a branch, put forward sponsorship offers (from yourself or from well-known aces of a cheap scientific book), authors and publishers will already show up. The result will be cheaper books for the retail buyer (because they are already paid for by you to some extent). We will also thank you, and authors and publishers will thank you for helping to bring their products to more interested parties.

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01.11.2009 16:13, Юстус

Whether someone likes it or not, all illustrated atlases on coated paper are primarily commercial literature, and then scientific literature. If the author doesn't make money from it, then the publisher certainly does...

a book, it can be either commercial or non-commercial. However, I did not come across the second type under capitalism.

"I didn't get caught" is not an argument. And I, here, got caught (see photo: 4th line from the bottom). And this is not just "capitalism", but "its highest stage is imperialism"!
To: DISAF. Just one (out of many, believe me) example of "scientific", but not at all "commercial" literature "on coated paper", and even with a gold edge and in "full" leather.

abroad <...> the mentality there is different, not ready to take off the last pants.

Even if you "take pictures"

(I'm talking about the "pants" from your remark), you won't get a book, because it's not for laymen.

After 1917 <...> no one leaves without pants <...> and before that, child labor in factories was quietly exploited in very civilized Britain. At the beginning of the twentieth century, we tweaked their "mentality" a little, and now they are smart

"You hang noodles", in the language of the square. In Great Britain, child labor began to be legally restricted as early as 1833

, when serfdom was not abolished in Russia (and in the SASS – slavery; cat. and to this day, I must say, it has not been completely abolished). So maybe they're for us? and not "we are them"?..

I don't < ... > eat without the help of money, I just try <...> somehow account for their income.

And I "eat", imagine, "without the help of money", but without the help of a spoon and fork "I don't eat"... It's a shame, of course, but not to dip a bill in cabbage soup?

Omar and I were all jealous of Yakovlev… But it turns out that one should be envious of Ju-lia, because someone's leisure time is not measured; there is so much free time that one can even "take into account the income of comrades".

if a person can travel abroad, then he will buy himself a photo camera there for $ 150, and not here exactly the same for $ 780.

With most of A. Y. Elez's theses (in this topic, as well as in the topic about "piracy-theft") I would agree, even if I would put" flowers-approvals " (if there were no "chaff" - multiple verbal "obscurations"), but, here, at Ju-lia, I can't even get to the "theses" (the subject is there, the predicate is also there, but something important missing... what? Meaning!)... Imagine, dear Ju-lia, without "traveling abroad", i.e. without lifting my buttocks from the chair at the computer (in your words, staying "here"), I can buy a "camera" (Your example) "there" (they will deliver it within 3 days "directly" to the apartment door, delivery is not proportional to the difference between "here" and" there", if I understand your terminology correctly). Ju-lia, is there something you wanted to say?

How do you imagine that you can make a mandatory 16 copies? distribute it to all libraries?

Do you need it? - represent "unrepresentable": "16" - "for all". If you insist, then I will try to "submit", but only after the 4th stack... (2-3 is clearly not enough) Information to think about. 1st thesis of V. N. Khitrovo's report "On measures to increase the availability of scientific literature in the province". It says here: "To carry out mandatory mailing by printing houses in accordance with the legislative procedure <...> to consider mailing <...> to 10 libraries necessary and sufficient [italics mine-Yu.]. (Diary of the 12th Congress of Russian Naturalists and Doctors in Moscow, No. 9. Moscow, 1910, p. 392)

This post was edited by Justus - 01.11.2009 16: 19

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01.11.2009 20:32, Ju-lia

Babochnik,Conversations on another topic. When a lady tried to insert the result of her work at an inflated price on a nearby branch, no one said that "the author himself who invested his Knowledge and Skills does not have the right to evaluate these Works", no one talked about the love of freebies, or the need to pay for Irina's experiments without fail. All told:
I don't deny authors the right to raise prices, I just say "It's expensive!".

A. J. Elz
1. Depending on where. In science, you coordinate the amount of remuneration (grant) with the person to whom you are going to sell the results of your work; in commerce, you don't.
2. The laws of one country are not binding in another and do not apply to citizens of another country who are in their own country, if there is no corresponding agreement between the countries. Now a counter question. Is it allowed to sell goods abroad without obtaining a trade license? Does an author who has sold his intellectual property rights to a publisher have the right to continue to profit from it? The legal regulation of this area is limited to lamentations on forums (with a call under capitalism to distribute scientific products in a socialist way - as if some other product is not for people, but for Martians!) or does it include more stringent measures of influence?
3. Of course.
And, finally, any business activity in this country is carried out upon obtaining a certain permit for this activity and paying tax on the profit received. In your example, it is not the authors themselves who sell their books through forums, but rather transfer the right to sell them to a legal entity.

Justut, I'm sorry, but I didn't understand you either. You plucked phrases out of their contexts and then talked to yourself. Sorry about the flower. The forum is buggy, links have gone.
In any case, when delivering via the Internet (for those who generally consider it necessary to deliver to Russia), you will, first, pay for delivery, and secondly, it is cheaper in stores there than in the Internet.
And also, if you couldn't dream of something even in your senior dream. But if a person starts talking about something, for example, about scientific books in libraries, then he should at least have an idea of what he is talking about.
And also, I REALLY ask you not to get involved in my correspondence with A. J. Elz. I speak to him in the same language that he speaks to me. If he wrote to me

I envy you your ability to travel, live, eat, etc. without the help of money,

So, I will answer him using the definits that he preferred.

This post was edited by Ju-lia-01.11.2009 20: 33

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02.11.2009 1:07, А.Й.Элез

"I didn't get caught" is not an argument. And I, here, got caught (see photo: 4th line from the bottom). And this is not just "capitalism", but "its highest stage is imperialism"!

The conversation is at the exception level, and I'm talking about patterns. I recognized the possibility of exceptions (and did not claim that it is impossible otherwise), but I did not consider it necessary to list all their possible options. So next time you don't need to show me departmental printouts of speeches at Congresses, at the UN, etc.You need to distinguish trends from particulars. Be that as it may, nothing is published for free, and if you want the book to be cheaper at retail, do not put pressure on the author, not yet saying thanks to him as an author (for starters), but offer sponsorship and set the condition for complete khalyava circulation. You have for some reason absolutized my words, but I was talking about the main tendency that scientists usually distinguish from particulars. I accept your example with gratitude. Indeed, in metropolitan areas, sometimes even such literature is not published for profit. In the colonies, they probably allow themselves to do this less often. Actually, this does not contradict what I have already said.

02.11.2009 1:17, А.Й.Элез

"You hang noodles", in the language of the square. In Great Britain, child labor began to be legally restricted as early as 1833 , when serfdom was not abolished in Russia (and in the SASS – slavery; cat. and to this day, I must say, it has not been completely abolished).

Thank you for the chronological clarification, but again, you should not repeat my theses. Did anyone realize that by the word "before "I meant exactly" right up to the very end of 1917"? "To" is just "to", without any "up to" or " all the way to..." Of course, you have the right to accuse me of lapidary and insufficiently detailed arguments, but do not write to me even longer

. Was it really necessary not to "make an installation", but also to tell that by 1917 the working-class movement had already managed to teach capital something in a few decades? This, again, is how it worked, and not just the increased altruism of the rich. This was my thesis, and to justify it even more in detail (so that, by the way, you would later reproach me with "chaff") - sorry, I was afraid, and so I already had to post several large messages. Thank you for your willingness to agree at least partially.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 02.11.2009 01: 19

02.11.2009 1:52, А.Й.Элез

And who is talking about free? There is a Bentley, there is a Volvo, there is a UAZ. All of them have a different purpose and a different circle of consumers, under which prices are sharpened, unlike some books addressed to scientists, but displayed at the prices of luxury goods.

Because of such objections, I will burn with a blue fire here. It's easy for you to throw out a word, and then I have to explain so many things to you... I don't know much about cars, but I understand the gist of the example. So, there is a circle of consumers and a circle of consumers. When you speak of scientists as the" circle of consumers " of the atlas determinant, you mean the circle of people who can use this product for its intended purpose, as opposed to those who do not need it in terms of its main characteristic (in terms of scientific content). Right? You don't understand the circle of consumers of an "expensive" entomological publication as a bunch of moneybags who have money, but not all have scientific brains. Right?

But when you talk about cars, you jump to a completely different concept of the consumer circle. You are no longer talking about those who need a car for a million pupaars for its intended purpose (a car is both expensive and cheap by definition, if it were not so, no one would buy it just for "performance"), but not about those who, as the "elite", were created for an expensive car. while someone else would only fit cheap rydvany. After all, even a beggar would not refuse to get to the flophouse in an expensive car. Only there is no money, so he does not get into the" circle". So here you already have not a circle of those to whom the thing for its intended purpose could well be (however expensive!) It is about the circle of consumers in the sense of effective demand.

So, prices are "sharpened" (even for scientific products, even for anti-scientific ones) not under the circle in the sense of interested parties, but under the circle in the sense of effective demand. And no scientist can do anything if his book is bought up in the store by all the rich fools. Even if it cracks. Of course, if you have money on the side, you can have as many copies as you want for poor smart people and distribute them to them even cheaper, even for free, but this is already a clear point.

But I admit that it also happens, by the way, that when they are fleecing themselves, they give away their works cheap, when they simply do not expect that among even the not very poor clever people there will be many fools who are ready to pay good money for it; but this is again not altruism, which is worth being proud of, and realism, awareness of its ceiling in science, it does not pass away.

02.11.2009 2:08, А.Й.Элез

When a lady tried to insert the result of her work at an inflated price on a nearby branch, no one said that "the author himself who invested his Knowledge and Skills does not have the right to evaluate these Works", no one talked about the love of freebies, or the need to pay for Irina's experiments without fail. All told: "Expensive!"

I remember such a branch. Only there (I digress from technical issues, only about money) they did not tell the lady: "There are reserves for price reduction, somewhere in the market you can try to find pins and straighteners a few percent cheaper, prices for straightening are sometimes a little lower, and you fight godlessly, we take for our own straightening less, but still your conditions will pass, and you will find customers without problems" and other nonsense. No, my colleagues simply stated with knowledge of the current prices on the service market that customers cannot be found at this price. No one focused on the topic of raggedness, people only laughed at the fact that the lady is deceiving herself and believes in a ghost, because the price does not just have a "reduction reserve", but is inflated tenfold! I was initially sure that (if we do not talk about really elite material, where the prices for straightening are generally as mobile up as for the material itself) the price of 10 € with today's purchasing power of this currency is market hopeless.

But at the same time, I am absolutely sure (and I believe you will not doubt it either) that the latest illustrated entomological literature will be sold out quite quickly. And that not every buyer will provide a certificate that he is not Abramovich, but Krulikovsky,- so after all, the lady did not ask for a diploma from the customers that the customer is an entomologist, and not a plumber...

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02.11.2009 2:27, А.Й.Элез

The laws of one country are not binding in another and do not apply to citizens of another country who are in their own country, if there is no corresponding agreement between the countries. Now a counter question. Is it allowed to sell goods abroad without obtaining a trade license? Does an author who has sold his intellectual property rights to a publisher have the right to continue to profit from it?
3. Of course.
And, finally, any business activity in this country is carried out upon obtaining a certain permit for this activity and paying tax on the profit received. In your example, it is not the authors themselves who sell their books through forums, but rather transfer the right to sell them to a legal entity.

That's all right. So their mentality doesn't tell us anything, that's all I wanted to hear. And why should I answer your questions about Zarubezh? In "zarubezh" you drove me to use the mentality, my colleagues know how and what to do with their mentality.

I can only assume that intellectual property rights accompany the rights to profit from it. Once again, I will be glad that you, although in a roundabout way, nailed the fans of counterfeit goods. But no one is forbidden to sell either their book or the book of their flatmate at a flea market, via the Internet, or otherwise in compliance with the law. This is the sale of goods that you have already purchased in good faith, and it doesn't matter if it's your book or someone else's portrait.

As for selling through forums, entomological forums (I know them) both here and abroad are full of private ads for the sale of entomological material, equipment, and literature. To what extent this goes against the tax laws is not for me to judge, but I doubt that the sale of several books at a jostle market will arouse the interest of the tax service. At least, in my opinion, the practice did not know this yet, otherwise there would have been a big rustle on the forums long ago-and not because of someone's personal misunderstandings, but because of objectively gathering legal clouds.

In general, I would understand your intransigence much better if it concerned not those who have, you see, the audacity to sell their own books at a similar (and very actively accepted by customers, among whom, to our general satisfaction, there are still no non-entomologists or almost none) price, but those who are serious threatens to counterfeit someone else's money. This is where I started, in fact.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 02.11.2009 02: 36

02.11.2009 6:45, Yakovlev

Forgive me, my friends, but I can't read all this. I'll
go get a translation from Stas Korb (rhopalocera)for books
. So be it. What's the difference. Ju-lia sincerely ask you to write to Lubomir Penev, Peder Skou, Erich Bauer with a request to take an example from Kirill Mikhailov (whose pricing policy I personally like very much!). Give them all sorts of different examples, about the White Sea, about the pulsation of the book business. Maybe they'll listen. All of us will win.
And philosophy will acquire something new...
in short, the topic is good - I was angry for a while, but now I'm so relaxed and happy.
And here it is the poet's dream - KMK bought all publishing houses and sells previously published books at a 90% discount, authors receive royalties in hard currency and not in the form of heavy volumes, and for all groups from ornithopters to pukhoedov, charming quality publications are published. Ripper is given all this by special request
And we all called together the gypsies, sing, shoot up from rocket launchers, in short, such a happy bullshit happens and only Elez and Justus remain serious

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02.11.2009 17:39, Юстус

The conversation is at the exception level, and I'm talking about patterns.

What are you talking about, dear A. J. Elez? What are these "exceptions"? Photo of the book (in the 94th post) Why did I put it on? Show off? — no. Deprive you of the opportunity to use quotation marks (in "hands", like, held)? — no. I just wanted to illustrate one of the manifestations of the "most ordinary" mechanism by which the scientist, and in his person science (as a social institution), is fenced off from the philistine ,the "non-scientist", the layman, the amateur, etc. This (pictured) scientific publication is addressed exclusively to "our own" ("initiates"), it should not even reach libraries.
And this (mechanism) is not the exception, but the rule

. Along with the direct prohibition of public circulation (including commercial) of scientific work, other mechanisms are also used.
Well, guess what I'm driving at?

The high price for a scientific publication is in their ("fencing"mechanisms) a row. The possibility of access for the "profane" (amateur) is limited directly (as in the above example) or indirectly (by a high price or the introduction of a" qualification"; I will not mention the" bird "language of Latin in this topic, although this is also among the "mechanisms"). Who better to recall the works of Plato or Aristotle in this connection (some are addressed to the "initiated", others to the "profane"). Commerce here, as vulgar people say, "has nothing to do with business." The scientist knows that the profit received from a commercial operation, one way or another (slowly or, in the case of a "crisis", quickly), devalues. Knowledge is not. Science (as a social institution, among other things) cannot be productively described either in terms of "political economy" (surplus value, etc.), or in terms of "isthmus" (basis, superstructure, etc.), or in terms of "scientific communism"

. Mechanisms ("fences") worked under tsars, general secretaries, presidents, "under" capitalism, and"socialism".

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02.11.2009 18:22, Ju-lia

No, A. J. Elez
When I was talking about cars, I was talking about the different purposes of these cars. There are those who are for work, there are those who are for status, and there are those who want to ride a girl. You don't go on an expedition in a low-slung but heavy-eating Bentley, not because you don't have the money, but because it's not designed for that. (If, of course, we are talking about those who have money for a Bentley). And a beggar, by the way, is also a beggar because he is ready to enter the flophouse in a limousine. He will remain a beggar, because if a limousine falls out of the sky and he goes to a flophouse in it, he will be robbed by his colleagues.
But I'm talking about the target audience of expensive entomology books. Who is it? With what income? What kind of lifestyle does he lead? Why would he need this book?
I have the impression that people who produce entomological books with gold crowding have not decided on the answers to such questions, and therefore they produce UAZs in the configuration and design of Bentleys.

I remember such a branch. Only there (I digress from technical issues, only about money) they did not tell the lady: "There are reserves for price reduction, somewhere in the market you can try to find pins and straighteners a few percent cheaper, prices for straightening are sometimes a little lower, and you fight godlessly, we take for our own straightening less, but still your conditions will pass, and you will find customers without problems" and other nonsense. No, my colleagues simply stated with knowledge of the current prices on the service market that customers cannot be found at this price. No one focused on the topic of raggedness, people only laughed at the fact that the lady is deceiving herself and believes in a ghost, because the price does not just have a "reduction reserve", but is inflated tenfold! I was initially sure that (if we do not talk about really elite material, where the prices for straightening are generally as mobile up as for the material itself) the price of 10 € with today's purchasing power of this currency is market hopeless.

But at the same time, I am absolutely sure (and I believe you will not doubt it either) that the latest illustrated entomological literature will be sold out quite quickly. And that not every buyer will provide a certificate that he is not Abramovich, but Krulikovsky,- so after all, the lady did not ask for a diploma from the customers that the customer is an entomologist, and not a plumber...

It's the same with books. You can produce it cheaper.
Sooner or later, everything will be sold, but, for example, "Butterflies of Uzbekistan", released in 2000 for $ 230. they are still available for free sale.

However, the phrase that in commerce the amount of remuneration is not agreed with the potential buyer, I am not yet able to understand at all. As they say, only after you...

What's not clear? Did someone coordinate the price with customers, for example, the above-mentioned "Butterflies of Uzbekistan"? IMHO, everything is clear.

That's all right. So their mentality doesn't tell us anything, that's all I wanted to hear. And why should I answer your questions about Zarubezh? In "zarubezh" you drove me to use the mentality, my colleagues know how and what to do with their mentality.
I can only assume that intellectual property rights accompany the rights to profit from it. Once again, I will be glad that you, although in a roundabout way, nailed the fans of counterfeit goods. But no one is forbidden to sell either their book or the book of their flatmate at a flea market, via the Internet, or otherwise in compliance with the law. This is the sale of goods that you have already purchased in good faith, and it doesn't matter if it's your book or someone else's portrait.
As for selling through forums, entomological forums (I know them) both here and abroad are full of private ads for the sale of entomological material, equipment, and literature. To what extent this goes against the tax laws is not for me to judge, but I doubt that the sale of several books at a jostle market will arouse the interest of the tax service. At least, in my opinion, the practice did not know this yet, otherwise there would have been a big rustle on the forums long ago-and not because of someone's personal misunderstandings, but because of objectively gathering legal clouds.
In general, I would understand your intransigence much better if it concerned not those who have, you see, the audacity to sell their own books at a similar (and very actively accepted by customers, among whom, to our general satisfaction, there are still no non-entomologists or almost none) price, but those who are serious threatens to counterfeit someone else's money. This is where I started, in fact.

Yes, very simple. Their mentality is to make money not on prices, but on volumes. Therefore, the ratio of wages to prices is less than in our country.
I wasn't expecting anyone. The whole world fakes our AKM, and the Russian Federation can't do anything about it, despite the abundance of patents, certificates and rights. So, everything is much more complicated than you think.
Of course, you can sell, provided that the relevant documents confirming the transaction are issued and taxes are paid. If you look through your fingers at "what is the sale of several books", then why are you so desperately not going to turn a blind eye to the fact that Vasya Ivanov will not have a book, but a copy of it? The offense is less serious and less financially justified for any prosecution of the "violator". Is it just because someone is the author of not 10 books for 200 euros, but only 9?
So this "intruder" would not have bought this book from him anyway. And if I bought it, I would deny myself what I needed, or I would load cars at night in addition to my work and ruin my health. Is it already for this purpose that books are published at the prices of luxury goods or what?

02.11.2009 18:23, А.Й.Элез

This (pictured) scientific publication is addressed exclusively to "our own" ("initiates"), it should not even reach libraries.
And this (mechanism) is not the exception, but the rule . Along with the direct prohibition of public circulation (including commercial) of scientific work, other mechanisms are also used.
Well, guess what I'm driving at? High price for a scientific publication – in their (mechanisms of "fencing") a row. The possibility of access for the "profane" (amateur) is limited directly (as in the above example) or indirectly (by a high price or the introduction of a" qualification"; I will not mention the" bird "language of Latin in this topic, although this is also among the "mechanisms")... Mechanisms ("fences") worked under tsars, general secretaries, presidents, "under" capitalism, and"socialism".

I am not going to discuss which mechanisms of protecting scientific literature from the profane are the rule and which are the exception. This is a new and completely technical question. All I have said here is that this fence itself is not a rule when forming the retail price for scientific literature, for understanding it is enough to visit the website of some serious publishing house like Kluwer, Verso, Sage, Oxford UP, Cambridge UP, Harvard UP, Yale UP, etc., etc. especially for books in bindings, local scientists, even with their good income, are very much cut off. If you know any scientists there, ask them if they think that there are enough "fencing" mechanisms ("not an exception, but a rule"!) in order for the scientist to consider it the norm not to be squeezed when purchasing the necessary scientific literature. I was always told that the cost was terrible, but they didn't even mention" mechanisms"; obviously, not most people have encountered them at all.

The high price is almost never used specifically as a "mechanism for protecting scientific literature from the profane". Even the cover you photographed shows, if anything, the exact opposite mechanism. And for a high price, there is another, more important and clear motive than this nonsense: profit-making; "protection" from" profane people " here is only a side effect and almost not worth mentioning. It is unlikely to argue that we could do without money, that profit and money are just a side effect, and most importantly, that science should not be littered with profane people, so we will tear it up. The high price cuts off not people for other interests, but people for skinny wallets. With learning or ignorance, this either does not match at all, or it matches in such a way that a scientist (as some comrades correctly understood here) will be cut off from book production faster by a high price than a restaurant waiter or a fashion model. The only thing that" helps " the high price is that it cuts off people according to the degree of desire: those who do not need it, even with a thick wallet, will not spend a lot of money, only those who are very interested will go broke. But even this benefit is negated by the fact that a rich person without scientific interests, even for a penny, normally, would not buy special literature, there is no need to cut him off, and many of the scientists will not be able to buy it at a high price because of poverty and will refuse to be cut off from it.

Who better to recall the works of Plato or Aristotle in this connection (some are addressed to the "initiated", others to the "profane"). Commerce here, as vulgar people say, "has nothing to do with business." The scientist knows that the profit received from a commercial operation, one way or another (slowly or, in the case of a "crisis", quickly), devalues. Knowledge is not. Science (as a social institution, among other things) cannot be productively described either in terms of "political economy" (surplus value, etc.), or in terms of "isthmus" (basis, superstructure, etc.), or in terms of "scientific communism".

The question of which discipline is best to describe science as a social institution is left to your speculation, it is interesting, but so fundamental that it is not required for my argument on the specific issues raised in the topic. The size of my posts does not mean that I am ready to get involved in a polemic on any socially significant issue.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 03.11.2009 05: 16

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02.11.2009 18:34, А.Й.Элез

No, A. J. Elez
When I was talking about cars, I was talking about the different purposes of these cars.

Only you did not notice that the purpose was interpreted in different ways-either as functional from the properties of the thing, or as conditioned by the price. Why and who turns out to be a beggar-gossip with someone else. And the fact is that there are no such properties of an expensive car with the same functions as a car that would make it objectively unnecessary for any rich or poor person. That's where the dog is buried. And to reduce it again to a mixture of different examples, to a fake analogy, is your old technique. Compare not an asphalt limousine with a hard worker for mountain roads, but either two asphalt limousines that are different in price, or two SUVs that are different in price for mountains. And you will understand that you can drive up to the office, and fly through the mountains at a higher price and at a lower price, and there is no such poor guy who would not be suitable for an expensive option. It's just a matter of who has what money. Actually, you let it slip about "status"yourself. And what is the capitalist's interest in this "status"? By itself? As if not so. All other things being equal (i.e., given that cars are functionally similar), "status" is the father of solvency, and prices are "sharpened" for it.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 02.11.2009 22: 20

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02.11.2009 18:58, А.Й.Элез

Sooner or later, everything will be sold, but, for example, "Butterflies of Uzbekistan", released in 2000 for $ 230. they are still available for free sale.

Thank God; that means that T. Ripper and I still have time to save some money, thanks to the fact that the print run hasn't sold out yet. Of course, it would be better for the author to disperse the circulation immediately; but for those who are interested, where can I get the book later? So - very good (although worse for the author and publisher, of course). But I agree, for 2000, $ 230 (if it is so) for that book is indeed a relatively high price (not that hundreds of one and a half euros today), and now the data is outdated, and this is unlikely to benefit further implementation even if it becomes cheaper. Such cases with an irrational price (they, of course, happen) really sometimes do not benefit-neither the consumer, nor the author, nor the publisher.

Likes: 1

02.11.2009 19:44, А.Й.Элез

Their mentality is to make money not on prices, but on volumes. Therefore, the ratio of wages to prices is less than in our country.

This is not the first, but the last time I have answered this purely ideological story (with a kilometer-long beard), which is a shame to relay these days. If you don't want to hear arguments, you don't have to, and you're getting tired of arguing with spells.

The ratio of wages and prices among them is not determined by the mentality that fell out of nowhere after the well-known previous history of the most expansionist economic system in the world, the creator of the world's colonial system. The mentality itself only reflects the economic possibilities of this system. And if, for example, the economic elite of the capitalist world (not so many countries) allows itself not to have a proletariat at home, this does not mean that it does not exist in the system as a whole at all. It's just that now your wage slave has been taken out of the metropolis and is not visible to those ignoramuses who can only understand a single state under the capitalist system. There are plenty of ways of neo-colonial robbery, if you don't believe it, read the literature, I don't have the strength to educate myself on such clear things here. With such an external "subsidy", it would be possible to distribute books (and not only books) for free. Just God forbid somewhere in Bhopal, India (especially twenty years ago) to praise the mentality, according to which only in the part of "zarubezh" that is visible to you, they can not inflate prices: they remember how many citizens (including children) died at the end of the last century at the Union Carbide plant sticking out of them, there you will be torn apart for apologizing for the Western pricing policy (paid for by their lives). And in this situation - almost the entire "third world". And without it, there is no capitalismand in general, with all its mentalities. Their "mentality" doesn't care where their good salaries come from, as long as they have them. Similarly, the wives of Nazi soldiers once did not worry about the joy with which parcels from their husbands come to them from the front with warm socks, women's underwear and other household items. Just received and enjoyed, that's the whole mentality. But - for the time being; and then the course of the war has already given them brains and adjusted their mentality, and it went: "Oh, we didn't know that our husbands were animals and looters, we didn't know that we had Auschwitz" and so on.Today we again have the same mentality. But experts in the global economy know where high wages actually come from in some parts of the capitalist system. If, relatively speaking, ten percent of the world's population consumes more than half of the world's resources, then it is not fair to be surprised at the salaries of this minority and write them off to a noble (and not to a bastard who does not care about the source of his grub, on widespread interventions in oil - bearing regions and not only, there would be grub) mentality. At the Humpback on raspberries, the bandits also ate more satisfying food than in the homes of Soviet people who were robbed or killed by them, and the level of "salaries" on raspberries was generally heavenly at the prices at that time, but, believe me, not due to the nobility of the mentality of Humpback and his accomplices. I repeat, I speak only of the economic side of the matter, and it is quite unnecessary to inflate every word I use (there are amateurs here, you know) into a separate topic.

It is ridiculous to talk about earning money not on prices, but on volumes in relation to a society for which the main thing is not to feed and provide people, but to make a profit (and human interest is secondary, it needs to be satisfied only insofar as it contributes to profit). If this were not the case, then as a result of competition (and I'm not even talking about overproduction crises), prices for almost everything would drop to zero, and they would talk not about a crisis, but about complete communism due to overflowing bins. But they prefer not to reduce prices below the level of rare "sales", products in such periods should be destroyed, crushed, drowned, etc.So long as they do not get "interested" at too low a price. How can you talk about their "earning on volume" mentality?.. If in recent decades there has been less pressure and heating (of overproduced goods), it is only because for several decades a new niche has been created for dumping surpluses - in the place of the former socialist system. But even such a powerful expansion of the global capitalist market (especially for Group B products), which has always fiercely competed for every square meter of influence, did not save the system from a crisis. So, how is it? Everything's getting cheaper by leaps and bounds, isn't it? Are they selling more and more and getting cheaper and cheaper? Alas, if such a dynamic is possible, it is not in the capitalist world.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 03.11.2009 04: 53

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03.11.2009 2:32, А.Й.Элез

I just wanted to illustrate one of the manifestations of the "most ordinary" mechanism by which the scientist, and in his person science (as a social institution), is fenced off from the philistine ,the "non-scientist", the layman, the amateur, etc. This (pictured) scientific publication is addressed exclusively to "our own" ("initiates"), it should not even reach libraries.

It did get there; the publishers must have overlooked it. Available in the following major libraries in the United States alone::

American Museum of Natural History (New York, NY 10024 United States)
Boston Public Library (Boston, MA 02116 United States)
Cornell University (Ithaca, NY 14850 United States)
The Field Museum Library (Chicago, IL 60605 United States)
Harvard University (Cambridge, MA 02138 United States)
Hennepin County Library (Minnetonka, MN 55305 United States)
Iowa State University (Ames, IA 50011 United States)
Smithsonian Institution (Washington, DC 20013 United States)
Trinity College (Hartford, CT 06106 United States)
University of California Berkeley (Berkeley, CA 94720 United States)
University of California, N Regional Library (Richmond, CA 94804 United States)
University of Chicago (Chicago, IL 60637 United States)
University of Kansas Libraries (Lawrence, KS 66045 United States)
University of Miami (Coral Gables, FL 33124 United States)
University of Michigan Library (Ann Arbor, MI 48109 United States).

The version that absolutely all the named libraries received this book very retroactively (like extortionate, inherited or donated copies from those who were originally entitled to the book by private circulation), you can not put forward. As an example, I show the title page of an instance of one of the named libraries. The book, as can be seen from the stamp, came to them in the same year in which it was published on the other side of the ocean, in Britain. Just in case, I attach a link to a scan of the entire instance in various formats:
http://ia331406.us.archive.org/3/items/orn...ogicalwo00twee/.

And where would science be today if the preliminary delineation (and even with appropriate labels) of the circle of people who have access to a printed publication was the "rule" for scientific literature, and not the exception.

By the way, the book you have presented is not an example of shutting off science from the "profane". Judging by the title page, this is a reprint (and the preface explicitly says "reprint", but you know, and here you did not have time to cut the pages) of previously published works, published at the request of the widow of the deceased author by his nephew; why should the widow and the nephew, who are obviously not related to ornithology, have anything to do with ornithology?the officer began to trump scientific snobbery on not their own works, besides, and so already published? I wish you'd come up with something funnier... The preface says: "This work is an accurate copy of the original writings "(with correction of typos, etc.). Put the label "for private circulation" here for any reason (for example, just as, not wanting to pay the author, editor, etc. fee, the agency publishes the work "on the rights of a manuscript", either in connection with an unresolved conflict of heirs over the rights to reprint my uncle's works, or-most likely - as a formality, as a legally necessary mark at the request of past publishers of the included works, which conditioned their permission to reprint them-see page 2. Forewords, or-alsovery likely - because they wanted to justify a small print run when they couldn't manage a large one, and they really wanted to respect the memory of a deceased relative by publishing his life's work, but for no other reason), but not for the fantastic reasons that you want to pull this title page by the ears, slandering it in this way In this way, the widow and her nephew are both targeted, and these considerations, which are really anti - scientific and sectarian, are passed off as the "rule" (!) of scientific book publishing.

This post was edited by A. J. Elez - 03.11.2009 05: 08

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03.11.2009 11:09, taler

A. Y. Elez-I don't understand why you are driving all this?Roman writes less than you do.I have a feeling that you're the one selling the books, not Yakovlev.From the outside, it looks like this: I bought Toropov's book,it was expensive,but there's nothing you can do,now you buy it too.
Don't make an epic out of it.
Ju-lia is right-there are books much cheaper.Not a freebie,just cheaper.Yu. P. Korshunov's book "Bulavous Lepidoptera of Northern Asia"(by the way,the Novel provided material) is an example of this.Yes, it's not in color,yes, it's a CMC-but the quality of the book is what it has inside-drawings of genitals, caterpillar antennae, eggs, etc.The price is ridiculous.Why was this book published?
This is a personal matter of the author, based on what reasons he set such a price.A good book SHOULD be expensive!Who decided that all of a sudden?One author, in order to write such a book,just needs to take photos of the collections,throw in the text,another will take into account every ticket sold and malnutrition on expeditions.And believe me, in the first version, the book is (most often) more expensive.One tries to convey this to the masses,the other is interested in the opposite.
Stas correctly said-if you want to buy,if you don't want to, don't buy..But it is not necessary to breed demagoguery!Making entomology a closed elite club is also not necessary!

03.11.2009 12:23, Бабочник

"It is ridiculous to talk about earning money not on prices, but on volumes in relation to a society for which the main thing is not to feed and provide people, but to make a profit (and human interest is secondary, it needs to be satisfied only in so far as it contributes to profit). "(C)
*
Golden words! The essence of the non-current system is to extract profit in any way with limited resources. I.e. they will produce any trash just to sell it. And all mind manipulation technologies are aimed only at one thing - to make consumers out of people. In fact, there is talk about comparison. stroev is stupid. Because ALL the compared structures are slave-owning, the only difference is in the ways in which slaves are separated from the results of work and the assignment of these results. This does not mean that an alternative is not possible (and it was real!) but this is a separate long song.
I am 100% sure that the authors of expensive books would sell them cheaper and in a larger circulation if the sales market was appropriate. No one will ever give themselves a firebrand with sales just because one of the potential buyers does not have enough money to buy more expensive (i.e., to do charity work at their own expense). Because both the author and the publisher bear the costs (real) when publishing the book. Modern publishing houses are purely commercial enterprises, we must remember this once and for all. And their goal (the only one!) - making a profit and the people who work there are puzzled by the issue of optimizing this very thing. The situation with authors may be quite different. Some people publish and sell the book themselves, while others cooperate with the publisher. In the second case, there is nothing to ask from the author at all (from the publisher, too, because-read above), and in the first case, the author himself bears all the costs of publishing and determines their price himself. NO one has the right to tell him that.
As for analogies with cars, Eiles again clearly saw through the substitution of concepts.
If books like the Toropovskys are "status cars" for Yulia, then why do they interest Yulia at all? So there is a "scientific grain" there? There is of course! I.e. this "SUV" is only very comfortable. And who said that the UAZ is a pralna and comfort in an SUV is bad? Just because someone doesn't have enough money for a more comfortable car? In this case, why not eat at home from an aluminum bowl or even a tin can? Where is the REDUNDANCY in expensive publications? This is normal in general-good quality books! It is bad when they publish books on toilet paper (we are not talking about the content now, it should be a priori up to par as the Essence of the publication) and with reproductions that spoil your vision. Social networks are also bad. conditions that put all common sense at risk in order to make a profit. But it's not the authors ' fault! Authors live in the same fucking system as buyers, and they don't have to pay for someone's inadequacy and inability to afford what they need.
It is not entomologists or publishing houses that make entomology (or any other science, or indeed any worthwhile business) an elite club. No need to drive a blizzard! Because the real owners of the system are interested in lumpenizing the masses and do everything for this.
Therefore, daragoy thaler in order not to breed demagoguery, start selling the Alexanor pupa not for 6 raccoons but for 1, just expand sales (the type is in demand - they will buy it!). For some reason, you do not do this, but in general you demand this from the authors of books. Although the publication of the book is also difficult, as is the cultivation of caterpillars.

Likes: 1

03.11.2009 13:05, А.Й.Элез

A. Y. Elez-I don't understand why you are driving all this?Roman writes less than you do.I have a feeling that you're the one selling the books, not Yakovlev.From the outside, it looks like this: I bought Toropov's book,it was expensive,but there's nothing you can do,now you buy it too.
Don't make an epic out of it.

It's not for me. I talk to my colleagues about the issue mentioned in the topic, with the involvement of the necessary issues for its consideration. The topic is not personally about someone's books, they can only be mentioned as an example. I quote in full one of the previous posts:

Yes, beyond the question of the book T. Yakovlev we came out here a long time ago, it started with this, but we didn't just talk about it for the sake of it. Sorry, I'm sick of it, because the topic is not only about the latest publications, it is much more general.

Therefore, the issue was allocated to a separate branch for those who should be in charge, and authorized in a new content framework. I am still answering you on the merits of the question, although, of course, not because "I don't understand why you are pushing all this". So here are some other "bends", so you have to unbend. And I'm not the only one, thank God. What does it look like "from the outside"?.. There are more than one parties, a colleague of taler... And if you are a principled opponent of the publication of natural science atlases, richly illustrated in color, and call for stopping-in terms of scientific content and cost - at the level of the posthumous monograph of the respected Yu. P. Korshunov, then this has already been said: devote several years to desk and expedition work (by the way, Yu. P. Korshunov, for independent reasons). I didn't go on expeditions in the last years of my life, and only the heirs could claim the royalties, but were there any of them?) and publish a book without color illustrations, compete with those who charge dearly for color, publishing books like books (quite adequate in design) by the late Korshunov or the late Kryzhanovsky, but you will feed yourself like a living on earnings from copies sold. Compete in the market, and the flag is in your hands! Who can argue with the fact that there are books in the world and cheaper? It is a crowbar at an open door, an objection for the sake of an objection. But the circulation of illustrated entomological atlases with a scientific component at the level of modern knowledge will still be in demand, and not among brainless moneybags or, conversely, homeless people, not among gynecologists or astronomers, but, as you understand, among entomologists. Let there be both your black-and-white and Toropov's colored ones. So that there are more poets - good and different. So let's see if you personally want not to refer to Korshunov (to refer is not to plow), but to ruin your years for work, and then drive chernukha...

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