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22.07.2014 10:22, bora

Regarding the wing pattern of pigeons and skepticism about its use. I attach to this post one of Shvanvich's works,

So what? Well, I read this article. And what does it have to do with the above examples of complete homology in various taxa of supergeneric rank? And complete discord in volumes of the same kind?

This post was edited by bora - 07/22/2014 10: 48

22.07.2014 13:50, Лавр Большаков

From all of the above, it is quite obvious that the main features of wing patterns in pigeons are limited to the level of subfamilies and partly tribes. And lower macrotaxons can be distinguished mainly by genitals
Likes: 1

22.07.2014 14:34, bora

From all of the above, it is quite obvious that the main features of wing patterns in pigeons are limited to the level of subfamilies and partly tribes.

And that is not always the case.

And lower macrotaxons can be distinguished mainly by genitalia

This is accurate, but it also applies entirely to higher levels.

22.07.2014 15:51, rhopalocera.com

I just wanted to say that the wing pattern should be treated in the same way as the genitals. And Shvanvich shows this very clearly.

06.08.2014 9:44, Евгений88

picture: 024.JPGpicture: 026.JPG
Likes: 7

28.08.2014 23:01, rhopalocera.com

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28.08.2014 23:12, rhopalocera.com

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30.08.2014 15:46, Konung

Today I met a fresh female Thecla betulaeL. in the vicinity of Omsk.
picture: IMG_8290s.jpg
Likes: 12

21.11.2014 16:41, Valentinus

In Nakhchivan, on the Zangezur ridge (1,900 m), I collected a pair of Aricia.
I can't tell.
For Aricia anteros, it is very small (22 mm in span) and dark. For Aricia vandarbani, it is too blue and there are no pronounced marginal orange spots on the front wing.
Could it be Aricia anteros crassipuncta? I don't have any comparative material yet, and I'm not sure about the definition from the pictures.
picture: Aricia.jpg
Likes: 9

24.11.2014 16:08, Valentinus

According to Maxim Markhasev and Vladimir Lukhtanov, this is still crassipuncta. yes.gif

This post was edited by Valentinus - 25.11.2014 14: 41

24.11.2014 19:33, Aurelian

Do you have the ability to sequence them? Then it would be possible, at a minimum, to exclude vandarbani. According to Sanudo-Restrepo, C. P., et al. Biogeography and systematics of Aricia butterflies (2012), anteros and vandarbani differ well in COI, while anteros and crassipuncta do not.

24.11.2014 19:52, Valentinus

Do you have the ability to sequence them? Then it would be possible, at a minimum, to exclude vandarbani. According to Sanudo-Restrepo, C. P., et al. Biogeography and systematics of Aricia butterflies (2012), anteros and vandarbani differ well in COI, while anteros and crassipuncta do not.

Yes, Boris Vitalievich suggested doing this. I just have another undamaged female. Let's try.

24.11.2014 20:47, AGG

If you are interested, can I "throw up to the heap" anteros ?This year's dombaiensis from the south of North Ossetia (Nar) wink.gif

25.11.2014 16:52, Valentinus

If you are interested, can I "throw up to the heap" anteros ?this year's dombaiensis from the south of North Ossetia (Nar) wink.gif


There is some material on anteros, but thank you for the point!

Aricia anteros. Georgia, foot of Didi Abuli volcano. 29.VI.2013.
picture: DSC02194.jpg
Likes: 8

29.11.2014 15:30, Valentinus

A friend collected a golubyanka in North Ossetia.
This is an interesting one. I'm still scratching my head - what is it?
Polyommatus amandus is most suitable, but it is much larger and very bright from below.
Maybe a hybrid of something with something?
picture: 2.jpg

29.11.2014 18:31, Andrey Bezborodkin

A friend collected a golubyanka in North Ossetia.
This is an interesting one. I'm still scratching my head - what is it?
Polyommatus amandus is most suitable, but it is much larger and very bright from below.
Maybe a hybrid of something with something?


I think amandus is still so "overfed". I once came across a small male of this species in our region, on the contrary, despite the fact that they always fly almost the same size. I looked at close views - still, I don't really feel like a hybrid...

29.11.2014 18:45, Valentinus

As you don't feed the caterpillar, the butterfly, in my opinion, will no longer exist.
The same kind of heterosis that occurs during hybridization in the first generation.

29.11.2014 18:57, Valentinus

Another mystery.
The butterfly was photographed by Konstantin Stark near Mozdok.
Probably Cupido argiades after all?
picture: 1.jpg
picture: 2.jpg
picture: 3.jpg

29.11.2014 19:10, Andrey Bezborodkin

As you don't feed the caterpillar, the butterfly, in my opinion, will no longer exist.
The same kind of heterosis that occurs during hybridization in the first generation.

Then, it seems, there are two options, with whom she, flying, could "catch her tongue" - thersites or eros ?

29.11.2014 19:14, Valentinus

Then, it seems, there are two options, with whom she, flying, could "catch her tongue" - thersites or eros ?

Oh, I shouldn't have straightened it out. Leave it to genetics. You can try it, though.

29.11.2014 19:19, Valentinus

Of course, Amanda, no matter how you feed her, will not grow up to be the size of a swallowtail.
But, with a combination of all the favorable development conditions, Amanda will still reach the maximum size for this species.
That is, if the caterpillar is "well" fed, then the butterfly will be larger.

All right, let's measure the largest amandas and find the largest one that anyone has. mol.gif

I have about two dozen males spread out. I'll measure it tomorrow.

30.11.2014 12:13, Sergey Rybalkin

Plebejidea cyane cyane (Eversmann, 1837) from the Southern Urals. Orenburg region, Kuvandyk, 26.06.2014

Pictures:
picture: DSC01995.jpg
DSC01995.jpg — (286.49к)

picture: DSC01996.jpg
DSC01996.jpg — (286.27к)

Likes: 5

30.11.2014 13:52, Andrey Bezborodkin

Plebejidea cyane cyane (Eversmann, 1837) from the Southern Urals. Orenburg region, Kuvandyk, 26.06.2014

A wonderful view, only once caught a female in Khakassia. There was some confusion with the genus-subgenus, I would like to know what is valid today, and what is in synonyms, little information about this butterfly.

30.11.2014 14:25, Valentinus

The largest specimen of a male amanda in my collection from the Caucasus is 33 mm in span (the length of the leading edge of the wing is 18 mm).
The one that was in the picture - 36 mm (20mm, respectively).
Who has more?

30.11.2014 15:24, Andrey Bezborodkin

The largest specimen of a male amanda in my collection from the Caucasus is 33 mm in span (the length of the leading edge of the wing is 18 mm).
The one that was in the picture - 36 mm (20mm, respectively).
Who has more?

Well, we have no monsters in the north, the length of the lane is 18 mm (all such), and that male baby has 13 mm. Korshunov for Siberia - the length of the lane kr. 14-20 mm.

30.11.2014 17:49, Kallima

I have a copy of the amanda 40mm. an Eagle, but she's paler than usual. Mostly males are found in our country up to 36 mm. This year there were no small ones, but last summer everything was slightly larger than icarus and less often than usual.

This post was edited by Kallima - 11/30/2014 20: 38
Likes: 1

30.11.2014 23:17, okoem

The largest specimen of a male amanda in my collection from the Caucasus is 33 mm in span (the length of the leading edge of the wing is 18 mm).
Who has more?

I have the largest specimens from the Crimea somewhere on 19-19,5 mm.
Likes: 1

01.12.2014 10:30, доркаш

They are up to 42 mm in wingspan. Depends on how you eat.

01.12.2014 10:31, доркаш

In Nakhchivan, on the Zangezur ridge (1,900 m), I collected a pair of Aricia.
I can't tell.
For Aricia anteros, it is very small (22 mm in span) and dark. For Aricia vandarbani, it is too blue and there are no pronounced marginal orange spots on the front wing.
Could it be Aricia anteros crassipuncta? I don't have any comparative material yet, and I'm not sure about the definition from the pictures.
[attachmentid()=212642]



crassipuncta. Only this is a long view already.
Likes: 1

01.12.2014 10:38, Fyodor

The largest specimen of a male amanda in my collection from the Caucasus is 33 mm in span (the length of the leading edge of the wing is 18 mm).
The one that was in the picture - 36 mm (20mm, respectively).
Who has more?

In my collections from the Moscow region, the wingspan of the largest male is 35 mm. This species is very common in my region, therefore, I observed a fairly large number of specimens in nature, while I did not notice males with noticeably large sizes.
Likes: 1

01.12.2014 14:25, Valentinus

crassipuncta. Only this is a long time ago kind of already.

Type or subspecies - there is no consensus.
According to the molecular model, it is still a subspecies of anteros (and not only in terms of COI, but also in terms of ITS2.
In addition, hybridization and overlapping of traits are noted.

01.12.2014 14:26, Valentinus

They are up to 42 mm in wingspan. It depends on how you eat.

Show me, plizz." mol.gif
I can't believe it.
Likes: 2

02.12.2014 12:32, доркаш

How do I show them? Take a trip to St. Petersburg, take a look at the Institute.

02.12.2014 13:46, Andrey Bezborodkin

How do I show them? Take a trip to St. Petersburg, take a look at the Institute.

I'll be in Zina and take a look. I don't know when I'll get there, though.

02.12.2014 16:55, доркаш

Type or subspecies - there is no consensus.
According to the molecular model, it is still a subspecies of anteros (and not only in terms of COI, but also in terms of ITS2.
In addition, hybridization and overlapping of traits are noted.



Come on : -). And what criteria were used to compare them in terms of COI and ITS2? Now the approach to molecular taxonomy is so flawed that it is better not to rely too much on it yet. In terms of morphology, these taxa are very well separated by Torben. And before the molecular taxonomy in this group (before the full-fledged one, I mean) still oooooooo far away. Too little data for good mathematical processing. And so, snatch out pieces... In 20 years, these studies will be laughed at. No offense, of course ;-).

02.12.2014 17:37, доркаш

It's fresh. Broke in and tore it up.
Here are such nonche guests.
And some doctors of science spoil the eyes of sequencers.


Nekhay poryat. That's why they are doctors of science, to look for the right approaches in the end.
And in young groups like pigeons-even more so. The problem here is that the notorious 2% is not necessarily exactly what you need. But you need to evaluate and weigh it. That's why I say-it's too early to drink ragweed in this group, and we still need to wait for the nectar.

03.12.2014 1:17, DYNASTES

Colleagues, tell me, and what are the instructions about Iolana iolas allegedly for the territory of Ukraine?

Ivy mentions this species as probable in Corrections and additions to the systematic part in Yu's book.Некрутенко и В.Чиколовца "Денні метелики України" - К.: Вид-во В.Раєвського, 2005. - 232 с., 156 іл., 198 карт, 62 кольор. table. " - Proceedings of the Kharkiv Entomological Society, volume XIV, issue 1-2. 2007 (2006).

At the same time, Morgun, Dovgailo., Solodovnikov and Ivy have Daytime butterflies of Eastern Europe. CD determinant, . there are no references to historical indications of the species for Ukraine

This post was edited by DYNASTES - 03.12.2014 01: 26

03.12.2014 13:11, Aurelian

Colleagues, tell me, and what are the instructions about Iolana iolas allegedly for the territory of Ukraine?

As far as I remember, there is a footnote in the summary of Obraztsov and Shelyuzhko (supplement to the Ukrainian edition of Yakhontov's 1939 determinant) referring to this species. It says that it should be excluded from the fauna of Ukraine, since its indication (which one?) based on an incorrect definition.
Likes: 2

04.12.2014 21:51, Sergey Rybalkin

Thersamonolycaena alciphron (Rottemburg, 1775) collected in Bashkortostan, Russia.Yantyshevo, 21.06.2014

Pictures:
picture: DSC02139.jpg
DSC02139.jpg — (338.42к)

picture: DSC02140.jpg
DSC02140.jpg — (324.27к)

Likes: 11

08.12.2014 21:37, DavBaz

Lycaena kasuapa. Butterfly with a very nice underside, the top is more modest smile.gif

Pictures:
picture: kasuapa.jpg
kasuapa.jpg — (288.98к)

picture: kasuapa_isp.jpg
kasuapa_isp.jpg — (294.43к)

Likes: 13

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