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Lycaenidae

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27.03.2014 14:29, Valentinus

no.gif
Hint-highlander, as a food plant for this species, in my opinion, is celebrated for the first time.

27.03.2014 16:36, Vlad Proklov

Callophrys?

27.03.2014 16:42, Valentinus

While passing by.

27.03.2014 17:51, bora

If not for the highlander as a feed, then surely Cupido, most likely argiades.

This post was edited by bora - 27.03.2014 17: 53

Pictures:
picture: argiades_larva_4.jpg
argiades_larva_4.jpg — (37.22к)

Likes: 1

28.03.2014 9:28, Valentinus

Well, what can I say?
Absolutely true!
Congratulations to Boris Vitalyevich! beer.gif

picture: DSC04337.jpg
picture: ex_larvae.jpg
Likes: 10

28.03.2014 10:43, okoem

Cupido argiades on buckwheat? Wow!

10.04.2014 16:22, Penzyak

.. how little we know about forage plants of bulavousy in Russia.

09.05.2014 21:27, Konung

Tomares fedtschenkoi (Erschoff, 1874)
from a fresh catch )
picture: IMG_2272s.jpg
picture: IMG_2273s.jpg
Likes: 16

13.05.2014 21:01, dim-va

Good time,
I sent here a photo from the definition of larvae. I ask for help in determining. Astrakhan region, Bogdo, end of June, on nagolovatka = Jurinea. The caterpillar is large, the color here is somehow not so important, because it fed on flowers, so it picked up anthocyanins. I will be glad to hear any suggestions. The idea that this is a bavius has not really inspired me yet, precisely because of its size.

This post was edited by dim-va-13.05.2014 21: 02

Pictures:
picture: bbimg_0011__227aaa.jpg
bbimg_0011__227aaa.jpg — (356.67к)

Likes: 1

14.05.2014 11:19, bora

Good time,
I sent here a photo from the definition of larvae. I ask for help in determining. Astrakhan region, Bogdo, end of June, on nagolovatka = Jurinea. The caterpillar is large, the color here is somehow not so important, because it fed on flowers, so it picked up anthocyanins. I will be glad to hear any suggestions. The idea that this is a bavius has not really inspired me yet, precisely because of its size.

How big is it? My bavius caterpillars grew up to 15 mm.

Pictures:
picture: bavius_larva4_5.jpg
bavius_larva4_5.jpg — (75.34к)

Likes: 1

14.05.2014 12:28, Penzyak

Vadim and on what exactly nagolovatke (not cornflower blue same?)?? Maybe there are photos of the plant itself, we will determine-a new fodder plant for bavius, for us in the Volga region is extremely interesting!!? Again, the caterpillar dates in June - isn't it too late for the south?

14.05.2014 13:32, bora

I caught baviuses on Baskunchak at the very end of May. So just right.

14.05.2014 15:51, dim-va

Well, now nagolovatki only begin to actively vegetate, before flowering they still grow and grow. That's Eversmann's hatchet, I think. I'll check with the author of the image. Thanks for the definition.

14.05.2014 16:50, Penzyak

Here's what the neighbors write about the timing of the Bavius summer (post # 3463): -
http://molbiol.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=526324&st=3450:

.... baviuses, before nogels take off for a week, and in the Kherson region nogels in all already flew on April 25-26, so bavius took off in mid-April, and already ends its years. sometimes the nogels disappear at the end of May. and there are if the cold spring fly until the second decade of June... then Bavius can hold out until june

14.05.2014 18:48, dim-va

I don't know what the butterfly years have to do with it if we're talking about finding caterpillars. June-July is just normal for species whose butterflies fly in April-May and have an extended egg-laying period.

16.05.2014 10:47, Penzyak

- here the question is when exactly does Bavius ' flight start on Bogdo and how long does he fly?

24.05.2014 17:06, AGG

can you use these "photos" to determine the view? mowed down today in the vicinity of Tambov with broom, about 1.5 см
[attachmentid()=200384]
[attachmentid()=200385]
биотоп
[attachmentid()=200386]

24.05.2014 17:12, alex242

I ask for the help of specialists. Please take a look at the pigeons.
http://molbiol.ru/forums/index.php?showtop...dpost&p=1485939

This post was edited by alex242 - 05/24/2014 17: 14

24.05.2014 19:18, bora

can you use these "photos" to determine the view? mowed down today in the vicinity of Tambov with broom, about 1.5 cm
[attachmentid ()=200384]
[attachmentid()=200385]
biotope
[attachmentid()=200386]

If it's this, it's probably C. rubi.

This post was edited by bora - 24.05.2014 19: 37

Pictures:
picture: rubi_larva.jpg
rubi_larva.jpg — (44.02к)

picture: post_12388_1400940290.jpg
post_12388_1400940290.jpg — (195.25к)

Likes: 1

24.05.2014 20:19, AGG

it looks like it, but what is its life cycle then, if imagos still fly, and the caterpillar has grown so much?

25.05.2014 4:22, bora

it looks like it, but what is its life cycle then, if imagos still fly, and the caterpillar has grown so much?

From egg laying (develops 2.5-3 days) to pupation-18 days.
Likes: 1

27.05.2014 13:48, rhopalocera.com

To the discussion that started in the thread about defining butterflies. A cladogram created by my MEGA 6. I think that it should be treated as separate genera - divergences with the North American and Palearctic branches are at about the same level. Genitals in pigeon beds don't work very well, especially in close groups. There are a lot of examples - in particular, the groups Agrodiaetus, eros, etc. - where species cannot be distinguished by genitals, subgenera - with great difficulty. And in the Satyrium-Neolycaena group, the shape and length of the branches of the unkus are perfectly divided.
Likes: 2

27.05.2014 14:19, rhopalocera.com

This cladogram is only for COI. But if you also take the nuclear gene (both separately and in a complex), it turns out that the w-album also bounces off other caudates.



For the w-album, Tutt's gender was set to-Edwardsia (he replaced Eliot with Chattendenia, since it was a homonym).

27.05.2014 14:20, bora

By the way, in the Satyrium group, the shape and length of the unkus branches are also perfectly divided in general for all representatives.

27.05.2014 15:34, rhopalocera.com

By the way, in the Satyrium group, the shape and length of the unkus branches are also perfectly divided in general for all representatives.


Goes. Zhdanko 1983, identification of female pigeons by male genitalia, key separating Neolycaena and Nordmannia.

27.05.2014 17:05, rhopalocera.com

Your photos don't show details
Likes: 1

27.05.2014 17:27, rhopalocera.com

Okay, now I'm still not going to redo the photo, although your short/long ones are not the same as Zhdanko's.
But still, how similar are the same uncuses in N. olga and N. rhymnus?


absolutely similar. in fact, sooooo much depends on the viewing angle, the degree of straightening of structures.

27.05.2014 18:21, rhopalocera.com

And how, then, does it turn out that two different genera have absolutely similar genitals, and even separated by the third, fourth (and possibly fifth) genera:
Neolycaena-Nordmannia-Fixsenia-Rhymnaria
Well, I know that much. I also know that it is not the length that depends on the degree of spreading, but the width and relative position of individual structures.



the question was about uncus. genitalia are generally different (aedeagus, valva).

27.05.2014 19:12, rhopalocera.com

That's about what I was getting at.
Everything is clear: poorly differentiated porridge.
Unkus are the same - edeagus are different, gnatos are the same-valvas are different, etc. in general, for the whole group.
If you follow the logic of Occam's razor and do not multiply entities unnecessarily, then it turns out that all this is one kind.


the pattern of wings in them is clearly and well grouped in essence, the correlation with dna is complete. you should think carefully before using a razor. in this group, the male genitals generally work poorly, but the female genitals work perfectly. you need to look there.

27.05.2014 21:19, barko

Does it correlate with Neolycaena+Rhymnaria?
Here are the female genitalia.
Please sign the specific names.

28.05.2014 6:36, rhopalocera.com

What is the correlation of the pattern with DNA!
Typical polyphilia, if you keep the existing taxonomy.


Typical paraphilia. Look at the externs and medians, and how they change. Very good correlation.

28.05.2014 10:50, dim-va

Does the layout of taxa change depending on the tree construction algorithm? After all, this is one option out of several hundred offered by the program.

29.05.2014 17:55, rhopalocera.com

The genus Satyrium (within the current taxonomy) is a paraphyletic taxon.



What was I talking about?

29.05.2014 18:03, rhopalocera.com

Here are different algorithms for constructing a phylogeny if mitochondrial and nuclear DNA are taken into account



Algorithms are understood not as general methods of constructing a tree, but as the models used (Tamura-Nei, Kimura-2, Kimura-3, etc.), statistics (heuristic analysis and its parameters, etc.), and other parameters. The complex results in several hundred possible combinations. The main algorithms are a combination of NJ + Kimura 2 and ML + Tamura-Nei. But there may be a lot of others, and the results are quite expected to differ.

My point is that you should still look at what comes out, and not blindly trust a computer program. Programs are written by people...

29.05.2014 18:38, dim-va

In this case, they can all be put in the Papilio genus frown.gif((. Here I fully agree with Stanislav that despite the optimization of variants by the machine, it is necessary to somehow impose the obtained variants on the morphology of the group. And I do not agree that the wing pattern, and especially in diurnal butterflies, is all unimportant, changeable, and should not be used. It's just that there is no need, IMHO, to hurry up with the organization of conglomerate births. And I don't like crushing. But I have not yet found any logic in combining Neolicens and Fixations with the company; if I am not a connoisseur of pigeons, then I still have some concepts of systematization, and this point of view does not fit into them. It fully reflects the European-American approach, when what the car gave out is good, and the interpretation .. Oh, come on...

29.05.2014 18:44, dim-va

And if Pruny is "off topic" everywhere, maybe you should take a closer look at him? Maybe this is really a separate genus? Since the genitals do not work well during the day, and their main focus is still on the wing pattern and the androconial fields associated with it (selection also works on them, if we reject conventions), maybe we should first look at the principle of organizing the pattern?
In this regard, it still seems to me that the Neolithic does not have an advanced drawing, but, on the contrary, an ancient one, without any special bells and whistles, with a maximum of details, unlike the actual caudates and marshmallows. BUT I don't insist on that. I'm just talking about the silkworm-like drawing style.
I didn't want to offend anyone, if anything, there are just big misunderstandings; their resolution, I'm sure, is for everyone's benefit.

29.05.2014 18:45, dim-va

something seems to me, everyone has their own concept of polyphilia here ...

29.05.2014 19:16, rhopalocera.com

Of course, there is MORE than one common ancestor in such a group. The group is huge. In addition, the cladistics itself implies the number of ancestors, how many branches there are in the tree. Unfortunately, it does not take into account the possibility of branching into three or more branches from a single node. And it seems to me that this case is a very clear indicator that the program simply does not know how to take into account the fact that a node could give not two, but three descendant groups.

I apologize if I inadvertently offended someone.
Likes: 1

29.05.2014 19:31, bora

Here, Stanislav, networks for illustration are very appropriate. In them, the trichotomy and more is very clear. And my program, as luck would have it, is now dead and the Internet is kind of weak, barely shaking, apparently because of a downpour with a thunderstorm.

And from me to all sorry

29.05.2014 19:53, dim-va

Right now, I'll smorozhu stupidity, but is it really so now according to modern ideas, including those supported by the dendrogram, that the original genus [Satyrium+Preferences] Nearctic origin, formed there and penetrated the Palearctic a SECOND time, probably through Beringia, although, who knows, maybe along the western bridge (or there were 2 waves at the same time, along the western isthmus and along the eastern one, it doesn't matter), where due to intense radiation it formed what no one can now group by birth? So the Palearctic taxa are young and probably still actively evolving?? But it is believed that the Neolicene is generally a genus of Scythian or Central Asian origin. Here's the mess started again...

This post was edited by dim-va-05/29/2014 19: 53

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