Jaundice (Colias)

Yes, nice things! Not received from me???

This post was edited by Yakovlev - 12/14/2009 16: 19

Yes, nice things! Not received from me???

No Rum..from Goshko

Who are you, DavBaz - I can't figure it out

Something a little yellow from the North Caucasus. I will fill in this gap with views of the surrounding areas of Stavropol and partly Karachay-Cherkessia. If you are interested, please help with the identification of species. [attachmenti
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This post was edited by sergey nyu - 12/16/2009 14:17 pm

Pictures:

DSC00588.JPG — (169.55к)

Something a little yellow from the North Caucasus. I will fill in this gap with views of the surrounding areas of Stavropol and partly Karachay-Cherkessia. If you are interested, please help with the identification of species.

In the second photo, I think the male Colias croceus Fourcroy, 1785. I don't know about the others. Connect now!

This post was edited by vasiliy-feoktistov - 12/17/2009 11: 42

C. thisoa, C. croceus, C. erate, C. hyale

tizoa
crocea
erate
crocea
hiale.

Colias stoliczkana Ladakh, Taghlang, H=5200

I will supplement the previously posted males with females.
Colias alfacariensis (Ribbe, 1905)
Crimea, Kerch Peninsula, Kholmogorka district, December 23-27, 2009, ex. larva.

Pictures:

alfa.jpg — (96.87к)

Colias alfacariensis(Ribbe, 1905)
November 11 and 12, 2009, Crimea, Feodosia, the outskirts of the village of Primorskiy, ex. larva.

... and genital preparations.

Pictures:

11.11.2009_1.jpg — (134.29к)


12.11.2009_2.jpg — (147.57 k)

How wonderful it would be if hyale's genitals were used for comparison!!

hyale in the summer will be when I withdraw (I hope).

A selection of Crimean egg yolks from different locations. Either crocea or erate...

Pictures:

colias_sp.jpg — (119.68к)

"A selection of Crimean egg yolks from different locations. Either crocea or erate..."

Something similar, only the Caucasus, KCR, gorge. Jemagat
Androconium is not present (like not crocea), the color is orange, the border with yellow veins (like not erate), not chrysotheme in size.

Pictures:

Colias_up.jpg — (224.07к)

It is now fashionable to call such hybrids crocea x erate So easier!

In order to call them crocea x erate hybrids, it is necessary that both crocea and erate occur in good numbers. Considering that the erate phenotype is very rare, much less common than similar "abnormal" jaundice (caught among the mass of crocea), they cannot be hybrids in my opinion.

if it helps,... doubtful ... and here?!:
http://www.pieris.ch/diagnostik/g_colias_01.html

This post was edited by dispar - 27.01.2010 00: 06

Pictures:

coliasy1ab.jpg — (102.06к)


coliasy2a.jpg — (91.17к)


coliasy3a.jpg — (135.83к)


coliasy4a.jpg — (100.58к)

palvasru4ko, a colleague! Is the fertility of F1 crocea x erate hybrids an established fact? Honestly, I don't know...
yes... and this one... if your constructions are based on the dominance-recession relationship, then let me remind you that there is also so-called multiple dominance, when an allele occupying the same locus manifests itself as a series of genes that are dominant as: A > B > C > D... (and not A > a). And the interaction of non-allelic genes cannot be discounted - it can change the picture exactly the opposite...

This post was edited by Papaver - 27.01.2010 00: 35

What if we assume that crocea and erate are just forms of the same species? After reading Milovanov's works, this is the only option that comes to mind, although no one talks about it directly... Honestly, I don't know...

Here, by the way, is a worthy and popular topic for dissertation.

If I am right and this is a case of incomplete dominance, then it is clear why there are more hybrids than erate.

In other words, crocea and erate cross, then their hybrid descendants cross, then the hybrid descendants cross with crocea and with erate. Etc. In this case, with such a constant mass crossing of everyone and everything, what is the reason to consider them as separate species? We don't count red, black, spotted, and other street cats as separate species, do we?
Milovanov does not exclude that crocea = erate, and believes that to prove this, it is necessary to establish whether there are actually facts of pairing " crocea "with"erate". So from this season I will start collecting copulating pairs.

... ... ...
Milovanov does not exclude that crocea = erate, and believes that to prove this, it is necessary to establish whether there are actually facts of pairing " crocea "with"erate". So from this season I will start collecting copulating pairs.

Milovanov is wrong - the very fact of copulation is by no means proof of the "crocea = erate"thesis. And copulation, in turn, is not a guarantee of getting hybrids in F1. And the latter, if they appear, will only indicate their presence. You must get at least the F2 generation.
You will have to consult a Butterfly Specialist for advice...

That's why I thanked you...
Well yeah.. We posted almost simultaneously about further questions and problems...
The question is correct. But not an address one, I hope?

Here, by the way, is a worthy and popular topic for dissertation.

Yes, in the light of our conversation, I want to clarify (see the quote) that I meant the processes of hybridization in certain groups of the genus Colias...

To the madness of the brave we sing a song! (с)

Regarding genetics (Lukhtanov's data):
crocea and erate form a single cluster and have no differences in the COI gene.

Pictures:

Colias___Lukhtanov_et_al_DNA_barcoding.jpg — (207.84к)

"...We need to look at genetics - and not just for cytochrome oxidase-1..."

Here are the data and not only for COI, but also for the elongation factor 1-alpha gene (data from Chichvarkhin, A., Wahlberg, N. and Nylin, S. 2007 / Institute of Biology and Soil Science, pt. 100-letiya Vladivostok 159, Vladivostok 690022, Russia)
Convergence is more than 99.9% - just a difference in 1 nucleotide.

Pictures:

1_crocea_erate_elongation_factor_1_alpha.jpg — (162.79к)


2_crocea_erate_elongation_factor_1_alpha.jpg — (166.37к)

Вот еще несколько генов: large subunit ribosomal RNA gene, partial sequence; tRNA-Val gene and small subunit ribosomal RNA gene, mitochondrial RNAs (Pollock,D.D., Watt,W.B., Rashbrook,V.K. and Iyengar,E.V. 1998. Molecular phylogeny for Colias butterflies and their relatives (Lepidoptera, Pieridae) // Ann. Entomol. Soc. Am. 91 (5), 524-531).
Convergence is 99.5%.
Pavel, you can cross, I think everything will end well
Then you will write an article and combine it into synonyms (collectors will "thank" you for sure).

This post was edited by bora - 27.01.2010 07: 25

Pictures:

1_erate_croceus_ribosomal_RNA.jpg — (220.26к)


2_erate_croceus_ribosomal_RNA.jpg — (225.93к)

For okoyem-a:
The rush is good and correct, but Papaver is right - you can't do without F2... Moreover, the publication requires a SERIES of experiments... All I can wish you is good health and long life. If the path is correct, the results will be displayed.

Thanks!
But I'm not going to devote my life to it

Then you will write an article and combine it into synonyms (collectors will "thank" you for sure).

Personally, I am interested in the truth, and I don't care about the opinion of collectors.

I didn't say that the truth isn't more important.
Only in a human way, sometimes it's unpleasant when someone spits after you. And not just collectors.
I have already experienced this many times.

This post was edited by bora - 27.01.2010 09: 38

You can share the theory of "erate = crocea" for you, and "giala = alfakariensis"for me

Dreams... It's a pity, in fact, I will have at least 2, or even all 5 years to sit in the hospital and give mothers of snotty children certificates, and after work - to walk around the yards ...

Put an aviary in the yard, there is fodder-in five years you will have time to get not only F1 and F2, but also probably F30. So much for dissertation and collectors ' love.

Convergence is 99.5%.

Boris, please explain, for those who are far from genetics - is such a difference considered sufficient for species independence?

Only in a human way, sometimes it's unpleasant when someone spits after you. And not just collectors.

Alas, the truth is often blamed. In the old days and at the stake could warm up

That is, the convergence of 99.1 and 99.5 (the difference of 0.1% or 0.5% is what is given above) for the species level is completely insufficient,

That is, either the authors of the above studies, unlike you, believe that 0.1% is quite enough for species independence, or they do not want to get spat in the back?

They really don't want to receive it.
The same Wiemers showed in 2003 that eros and eroides have a very close genome, but only in 2008 in the press stated that eroides should be considered only as a subspecies of eros (http://www.ufz.de/biodiversity/download/Climatic_Risk_Atlas_of_European_Butterflies_Settele_et_al_2008_low_resolution.pdf)
and there are plenty of other examples of a VERY careful approach (not to offend anyone, not to look too revolutionary, etc., grants are the same you need to get it).

It turns out that both the 2% criterion is published, and the difference of 0.1 - 05% is published, it remains to publish the conclusion.
Waiting for Giordano

How wonderful it would be if hyale's genitals were used for comparison!!

I thought about it and found it.
All three: 15 Sep. 2008, Kharkiv, p. Pyatikhatki.
Butterflies were collected in a damp forest gully, where P. argyrognomon, N. sappho, and A. allous also flew.
hyale or not, I don't know, but alfacariensis for the Kharkiv region, in my opinion, has not yet been cited, and the biotope for it seems to be not suitable.

Pictures:

colias1.jpg — (60.15к)


colias2.jpg — (54.31к)


colias3.jpg — (73.87к)

Not really in the subject, but this jaundice raises big questions for me. Well, I haven't seen such myrmidons yet. If this color is still found in myrmidon - tell me. And if not, what is it? MO, O-Zuyevsky district

Pictures:

DSC01756_3.JPG — (198.36к)

Myrmidon. Females very rarely have yellow aberration flavescens (Garbowski 1892). And where is it taken, not on the Nerskaya River?

It was taken from the Burrow (in the myrmidon nursery).

to sdi:
Sergey, I will specially post a series of my" nersky " myrmidons. What there just isn't!

I just talked to Valentin Tikhonov from Pyatigorsk.
He raised crocea from a single female, and there were crocea, erate, and all sorts of transitional forms in the litter. And all this without crossing and specific growing conditions.
Such are the cases.

I just talked to Valentin Tikhonov from Pyatigorsk.
He raised crocea from a single female, and there were crocea, erate, and all sorts of transitional forms in the litter. And all this without crossing and specific growing conditions.
Such are the cases.

That's what I said about it, I saw it all with my own eyes at Valentine's.
There and in caterpillars, transitional forms were observed.

So, perhaps, to him (Valentine) it was just lucky to get on the offspring of a hybrid or one of the parents ' closest relatives were erate (and the offspring of a hybrid may well not be sterile like that of the Parnassians of tov. Babochnik), and this was shown in the next generation!!! If I'm not mistaken, there are both species in the vicinity of Pyatigorsk... I am sure that for the accuracy of the experiment, and even more so for declaring crocea and erate as one species, it is necessary to get descendants from butterflies from those points where there is only one species and their ranges do not intersect at all, since I caught rabbits near Kiev from year to year (at this point only crocea is hyale) and not once in 10 years (!!!) I haven't seen a single butterfly even slightly similar to erate. Here's how to explain it if crocea and erate are the same species? Where does the yellow form of crocea males (if it is a single species) go in such localities?