Jaundice (Colias)

The previous message is mine, I forgot to register.

So, perhaps, to him (Valentine) it was just lucky to get on the offspring of a hybrid or one of the parents ' closest relatives were erate (and the offspring of a hybrid may well not be sterile like that of the Parnassians of tov. Babochnik), and this was shown in the next generation!!!

Valentin grew it repeatedly, because this phenomenon intrigued him. It's unlikely that he was so lucky that only hybrid females were caught.
And the presence or absence of a particular form in a population is a" personal " matter for the population itself. In the Caucasus Mountains, for example, there are all transitional forms from Pieris napi to bryoniae. And in the steppe Ciscaucasia, the bryoniae form is gradually disappearing and, for example, in the Rostov region it is completely absent.

Dear forumchane, help to define zheltushek, and that reading your disputes I will not decide myself. Caught in the Stavropol Territory, in the vicinity of Stavropol and not only.

Similar to C. alfacariensis.
But in general, I think that hyala and alfakariensis have the same garbage as crocea-erata.

Dear forumchane, help to define zheltushek, and that reading your disputes I will not decide myself. Caught in the Stavropol Territory, in the vicinity of Stavropol and not only.    

Sergey, after all the previous discussions, your question looks somehow incorrect, so do you think it will be possible to accept the definition of even the coolest experts on faith? To be honest, every time there is a definition based on photos, I, as a purely technical person, have doubts about whether entomology, and indeed all biological sciences, can be considered sciences in general... Expert assessments of appearance are somehow more accepted in art And only after the excellent data of the respected bora...........

Dear forumchane, help to define zheltushek, and that reading your disputes I will not decide myself. Caught in the Stavropol Territory, in the vicinity of Stavropol and not only.    

I would guess "erata", two alphacariensis (apex obscured) and hyala (apex with broad enlightenment). And as it really is...
Sergey, please do not forget to press "Enter"before adding each new image. I don't know about anyone, but on my widescreen monitor, your posts with images create horizontal scrolling Thank you!

What is "scrolling"?

Scroll

I thought about it and found it.
All three: 15 Sep. 2008, Kharkiv, p. Pyatikhatki.
Butterflies were collected in a damp forest gully, where P. argyrognomon, N. sappho, and A. allous also flew.
hyale or not, I don't know, but alfacariensis for the Kharkiv region, in my opinion, has not yet been cited, and the biotope for it seems to be not suitable.

Yeah, who would tell me who actually flew there ... allous and hyale - or maybe agestis and alfacariensis?

I haven't been on the forum for a long time, so I read it and make up for it...

to sdi:
Sergey, I will specially post a series of my" nersky " myrmidons. What there just isn't!

As promised.
The left row is the upper male - Tambov region, below it is a male from the vicinity of Kirzhach, Vladimir region. The lower male is the first copulation with the Burrow. The middle row at the bottom is a female from Tugolesye, caught in June in the same high swamp. the right row at the bottom is a second-generation female from Tugolesye. All the rest is the second generation from the Orekhovo-Zuyevsky district of the Moscow Region.

Pictures:

myrm.jpg — (163.34к)

Gennady Vasilyevich and I will probably work together on this, as our faunas and taxa are very close. HOOKE, what do you think?

This post was edited by bora - 10.02.2010 16: 20

I am currently running the following program (though only for pigeon holes). Study of all stages of preimaginal development, the width of the food supply and its variability (for example, in one of the places where Plebeius maracandicus lives, the astragalus disappeared due to blackening of the sands, but the butterfly calmly moved to the broom where it was never marked). Then study the morphology of the imago, genitalia and their variability (including genital, which I have already noticed) depending on the conditions of development. And I finish all this by genotyping the grown samples. This is the maximum I can pull out at the moment. Gennady, join us!

This post was edited by bora - 10.02.2010 18: 41

I have almost already collected a package with a group of Mongolian erotides-aloisi for bora. I think this is very interesting material.

I have almost already collected a package with a group of Mongolian erotides-aloisi for bora.

Grand merci! I look forward to it with great interest!

Friends, what does this have to do with pigeons?

Friends, what does this have to do with pigeons?

Well, as a curator (unexpected;), I would venture to say that Polyommatus genitalia works about as poorly as Colias. Which, apparently, is not accidental... Young bands, etc...
And the topic on erate-croceus turned out to be very interesting! The types are such that few people have the courage to combine them...

In the common piggy bank of knowledge...
Factual material on the forest-steppe of the Penza region (Middle Volga region):

C. myrmidone-inhabits both sedimentary areas and (mainly) along the edges and clearings of pine forests. Females of the 2nd generation are very interesting (it is in the boron populations!?). Color transition (at one point!!) it can be from dark greenish, light yellow, orange (all shades) and up to white! K. R. G.-broom. Males do not vary much in color.

C. hyale (2-3 generations) is the most common and widespread (as is the whole group of open/settled biotopes) in our country. C. erate is rare (2 cases): June - September period. C. crocea and C. alfacariensis (1-2?) are very rare: August-September. Every 3-4 years, there is an increase in populations of sweet clover (mainly yellow), and then the number of this entire group increases significantly! But, here's what's interesting - at the end of September (we've been observing it for the third year) both in open biotopes and along the settled edges of pine forests, they appear in large numbers (fresh!!!): C. erate is in the 1st place and C. crocea is in the 2nd place. "Indigenous" C. hyale - at this time almost already "shobols". Where do the first two types come from and where do they go at the beginning of next year!?? We almost never caught migrants of these two species in the summer (shabby ones)?!! Miracles and nothing more...

C. crocea and C. alfacariensis (1-2?) are very rare: August-September.
.................
they appear in large numbers (fresh!!!): 1 place - C. erate and 2-C. crocea. "Korennaya". Where do the first two types come from and where do they go at the beginning of next year!?? We almost never caught migrants of these two species in the summer (shabby ones)?!!

"Just because they didn't catch migrants doesn't mean there aren't any. For example, I have never seen Lampides boeticus migrants, but we have plenty of fresh brood every autumn.

- How do you distinguish between C. alfacariensis and C. hyale?

Alfakariensis in our Penza training camps of yolks was determined to me by the YUPK at one time. Now I select similar ones... And what are your criteria (just not for caterpillars) for determining imago?

And what are your criteria (just not for caterpillars) for determining imago?

Unfortunately, I don't know the criteria. The question is open to me. At the moment, it seems that the criteria described in the literature are not very reliable.

I totally agree with you. But GUK seems to have its own criteria - Gennady share with the public.

  
Now the criteria, although it's all written above, and it's all written in any book.
1. the color of the wings.
2. the shape of the wings.
3. shape and size of the edge border.
4. discal spot color and size.
5. the nature of basal darkening.
6. garpa shape.
That's it, easy and simple.

This is all desirable to illustrate or give links to such, even in this forum.

http://www.pieris.ch/diagnostik/s_hyale_01.html

http://www.pieris.ch/diagnostik/s_alfacariensis_01.html

Thank you, sign # 5. the nature of basal darkening. clearly visible.
I hadn't noticed it before. And the rest, if not very difficult

Compare

Pictures:

Colias.jpg — (276.09к)

Compare

By trait 5.
C. alfacariensis and C. hyale

Both on the border and on the shape of the wings

The wing shape of C. alfacariensis varies (URL#100, URL#112), I'm not sure if this is a reliable sign.

By itself, none of these signs work, but all together give a good result.

It's clear. We look at the complex and accordingly divide the fees into two "piles".
The question is: how can we be sure that this method is reliable? I.e., that the complex of external features of these highly variable species never overlap? That this is precisely a definition, and not a guess with some degree of probability? Has anyone drawn large series and compared them? Are the relevant works known?
I am aware of a similar work by Czech authors, in which a mathematical formula for calculating the species membership is derived based on the above-mentioned external features of the shape and color of the wings. However, the measurement and calculation of my breeding specimens of C. alfacariensis shows that they belong to... C. hyale

I deliberately did not mention yesterday that it is impossible to determine absolutely all butterflies from this group using this method, since there are also intermediate positions here.

Thus, if we collect a series at a certain point and then arrange the butterflies in a row, we get the phenotypes "hyale" and "alfacariensis" at the edges of the series, and a series of transitional forms between them. How can we be sure that there are exactly two different views at the edges of the row, since there is no border between them? And why is the possibility excluded that the entire series is not one single mutable view?
I'm not saying that these two types are synonymous. And I'm saying that these two types can be doubles (why not?). Like, for example, mottled minos and purpuralis, which are known to be 100% reliably determined exclusively by caterpillars (not even by genitals!).
Thus, I believe that in order to know about the presence of some locality of both species in the fauna, it is necessary to see caterpillars.

The row is built up if you look at one attribute, and if there are many of them, then there will be three parts:2 where, instances that are assigned to a particular species by a set of characteristics and the third in which instances that the hand does not rise to attribute to a particular species.

and if there are a lot of them, then there will be three parts

I was talking about a set of features. The number of parts, IMHO, will depend on the subjective assessment of the viewer, and the belonging of the instance to a particular part - on which of the specific features the researcher considers more significant.
I tried to divide my existing fees into two groups. The result was first three groups (alfacariensis, hyala, and intermediate specimens). Upon further examination, it was found that intermediate specimens can also be distinguished between the "intermediate" and the two extreme, "defined" groups. Then the extreme groups were also divided on the basis of "well, these are exactly the same", and "these are a little doubtful". Then, after looking at the egg yolks lined up in a row of seven groups, with a maximum in the middle and a minimum of specimens at the edges (and the genital "alfacariensis" hit the "hyals"), I realized that you can divide this way indefinitely and concluded that this method of "determination" was unacceptable for me".
It's great if someone can confidently divide the yolks into three (or better - two) groups. But what is the reason for confidence?

okoem, and what did your experience in feeding the caterpillars "alfakariensis" and "hyala"show? The imagos you received were clearly divided into two groups, or the "third column" appeared again!??

okoem, and what did your experience in feeding the caterpillars "alfakariensis" and "hyala"show? The imagos you received were clearly divided into two groups, or the "third column" appeared again!??

I haven't reared the hyala caterpillars yet. Hence my questions.

It seems that hyala is absolutely not uncommon in the European part of Russia???

It seems that hyala is absolutely not uncommon in Ukraine and in the European part of Russia???

Please confirm the definition. Is this Colias erate?
Uzbekistan, Shakhimardan, July.

Pictures:

543f.jpg — (196.97к)

I don't understand Asian Cosias very well. There is a certain alta there. It looks like this is her.

this is erate.