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Genus Parnassius

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04.09.2010 5:37, Yakovlev

Dear colleagues, I am sending you an article by our French comrades. In my opinion, the article is an example of how to work with literature. I don't completely agree with permutations (internally-in the soul, so to speak), but the article is super. I hope for your comments and thoughts

File/s:



download file NEVA_31_071_HANUS_THEYE_Parnassius_phoebus.pdf

size: 638.98 k
number of downloads: 4184






Likes: 5

04.09.2010 11:11, rhopalocera.com

Correct article. I have already adopted it for the second edition of the Rhopalocera catalog of the former USSR, with all the resulting nomenclature acts.
Likes: 1

05.09.2010 1:43, Kharkovbut

Dear colleagues, I am sending you an article by our French comrades. In my opinion, the article is an example of how to work with literature. I don't completely agree with permutations (internally-in the soul, so to speak), but the article is super. I hope for your comments and thoughts
Very interesting investigation, but... IMHO, it is important to have a STABLE nomenclature. The name "phoebus "has been used for 200 years in a very specific sense (and - by inertia - will continue to be used in the future, regardless of this publication), and it is stupid to violate this, although it is" legally " required. As far as I understand, you can ask for a "special opinion" (and other prescribed gestures - for example, if necessary, then fix the neotype, etc.) to fix the usual nomenclature contrary to the letter of the code, which has precedents. IMHO, this is how it should be done.

I'm not a professional biologist, and I'm very easy to get kicked around, which I'm mentally prepared for. wink.gif

05.09.2010 7:23, Yakovlev

And why do you write everything correctly with your feet zapinyvat.
Likes: 1

09.09.2010 23:55, MisterXus

rhopalocera.com a hybrid of apollo and tienshanicus does not produce fertile offspring. This is a stupid criterion of the species (biology textbook for the 10th grade), and kamchadalus + swallowtail gives fertile offspring-so they are one species. By the way, I don't know how in your environment, but in our environment of professional oenomologists, here is such an argument "subspecies and all",
because it is the same species with the swallowtail, it is very annoying)))))))

14.09.2010 9:36, chebur

camchadalus + swallowtail gives fertile offspring

Dear MisterXus.
Did you catch a typical kamchadalis and a typical swallowtail, get a hybrid from them, and then cross it again with a kamchadalis, or with a swallowtail, while getting offspring?
In my opinion, only in this case it is possible to unconditionally make such statements.
If you have done this work, then its results give you every right to defend your point of view.

14.09.2010 13:11, MisterXus

This is literature data. There is a link in the Red Data Book of the Kamchatka Territory. I personally caught camchadalus, suckled the caterpillars, and hatched them from their pupae. In the same biotope, both tailed swallowtails and short-tailed swallowtails fly, and they have the same food plant (hogweed). All collected caterpillars from the first to the last molt are the same, pupae too. Both tailed and short-tailed butterflies emerge from the pupae. I've been trapping imagos for two natural generations. The same picture. In any case, since such a conversation has already begun, the difference between these "species" should be in the genetalia. For the sake of interest, I will reveal both. I'll unsubscribe the result.

This post was edited by MisterXus - 14.09.2010 13: 12
Likes: 1

14.09.2010 19:01, Dragonsbane

This is literature data. There is a link in the Red Data Book of the Kamchatka Territory. I personally caught camchadalus, suckled the caterpillars, and hatched them from their pupae. In the same biotope, both tailed swallowtails and short-tailed swallowtails fly, and they have the same food plant (hogweed). All collected caterpillars from the first to the last molt are the same, pupae too. Both tailed and short-tailed butterflies emerge from the pupae. I've been trapping imagos for two natural generations. The same picture. In any case, since such a conversation has already begun, the difference between these "species" should be in the genetalia. For the sake of interest, I will reveal both. I'll unsubscribe the result.



I added pages from the Red Book of Kamchatka about kamchadalyus. I did not find it where it is written about hybridization. So a species or a subspecies?

File/s:



download file Kamchatka_RDB.pdf

size: 518.55 k
number of downloads: 704






14.09.2010 19:31, fayst79

who will answer what is the subspecies of nomion

Pictures:
picture: IMG_0022.JPG
IMG_0022.JPG — (209.63к)

14.09.2010 19:41, Yakovlev

What's the point?

15.09.2010 12:57, fayst79

from the area of approximately Transbaikalia-manzhuria

15.09.2010 13:57, Yakovlev

It's hard to say with this orientiation

15.09.2010 14:33, fayst79

that's for sure.they brought me this copy.
caught somewhere near the border.

05.10.2010 8:03, fayst79

By the way, the question has been tormenting me for a long time - if by Ace
ssp. moscovitus Bryk & Eisner, 1938 - the C. European part (from Moscow, Tula, Vladimir, Ivanovo, Nizhniy Novgorod up to Volgograd);
ssp. democratus Krulikowsky, 1906 - the NE. European part (Kirov, Perm, Izhevsk, Vjatka, Elabuga, Yoshkar-Ola);
in the Nizhny Novgorod region, Moscovitus, and in Tatarstan - democratus - what is the subspecies in Chuvashia??? In theory, there should be a democratus (Yoshkar-Ola is 70 km away, Nino is 250 km away)
What is the subspecies on the border of Chuvashia and the Nizhny Novgorod region??? If you take administrative-territorial borders (which is stupid)- to the Sura River-moscovitus, and beyond it-democratus??? If the subspecies border follows the Volga River watershed (Nizhny Novgorod up to Volgograd - - - - - - - - Elabuga, Yoshkar-Ola), then it turns out that in the south of the Nizhny Novgorod region (to the south of the Volga) - Moscovitus, in the north - democratus???
Who can clarify this question? mol.gif



today, 09: 01 URL #457

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand from all the debates I have on the Middle Volga Ulyanovsk region. vows Parnassius apollo democratus. a moscowitus above listed areas.

05.10.2010 8:56, mikee

today, 09: 01 URL #457

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand from all the debates I have on the Middle Volga Ulyanovsk region. vows Parnassius apollo democratus. a moscowitus above listed areas.

Moscovitus you have an Ace. But it is better to put these nonsense out of your head wink.gif
Likes: 5

08.10.2010 19:04, fayst79

Moscovitus you have an Ace. But it's best to put this nonsense out of your head wink.gif

by the way, I have Tuzov the necessary pages are poorly scanned, as luck
would have it, it is even impossible to read.
I downloaded it from the Internet, maybe someone will install a page with a description of p. apollo...

10.10.2010 11:37, fayst79

This is what Weiss looks like

here is my 56 region in the table
p. a. democratus.

10.10.2010 11:48, fayst79

here is my 56 region according
to the p.a.democratus table.



Meticulous Germans share these subspecies of apollo.
In particular, Mehn wrote the following in 2005:
ssp. moscovitus Bryk & Eisner, 1938 - the C. European
part (from Moscow, Tula, Vladimir, Ivanovo, Nizhny
Novgorod up to Volgograd);

ssp. democratus Krulikowsky, 1906 - the NE. European part
(Kirov, Perm, Izhevsk, Vjatka, Elabuga, Yoshkar-Ola);

This post was edited by fayst79 - 10.10.2010 11: 49

10.10.2010 12:48, Vlad Proklov

This is idiotic. Even Crimea is listed - which indicates the author's incompetence in this matter.
Likes: 4

18.10.2010 22:50, MisterXus

Who can help with photos of P. staudingeri chitralica, P. staudingeri tytlerianus and who has ever seen P. staudingeri mustagata from a typical location (China, Karaul)??? I will be very grateful for the photos of mustagata. I collected it myself in the Pamirs. I want to compare it with the standard one. I can't find an article from 1990 ((((((

This post was edited by MisterXus - 10/18/2010 22: 51

05.02.2011 22:08, radusho

P. hunza ssp. gurkoensis, Heinrich&Sebastian Schmid 2010 Paratype male Pakistan
P. andreji kongfuzii, Stanislav Kocman 1996 Paratype pair China


picture: gurkoensis.JPG
picture: PC059847.jpg

This post was edited by radusho-02/05/2011 22: 12
Likes: 5

17.02.2011 16:11, MisterXus

I have seen the description of this gurkoensis... not convincing. Images of butterflies are hand-drawn (a la an art lesson in the 1st grade) and scanned. There is no map.

17.02.2011 16:55, barko

I have seen the description of this gurkoensis... not convincing. Images of butterflies are hand-drawn (a la an art lesson in the 1st grade) and scanned. There is no map.
Could you make a copy of the original description of gurkoensis? I really want to see it.

18.02.2011 21:48, radusho

gurkoesnsis is much smaller than nominate ssp. Also in nominate ssp. we can find also yellow dots insede the ocellis, but gurkoensis has all ocellis darkly coloured.
I have not seen the original description, so I am also interested in it.
here is a comparing photo:
picture: hunza.jpg

This post was edited by radusho - 02/18/2011 21: 50
Likes: 5

20.02.2011 1:31, MisterXus

It is necessary to compare not with P.st. hunza, and with P. St. tytlerianus. It is also small all over and with dark dots. I'll try to post a description tomorrow.

20.02.2011 12:50, MisterXus

Here is an article describing gurkoensis, there was no scanner at hand, so I took a picture.

Pictures:
picture: IMG_7111.jpg
IMG_7111.jpg — (180.3к)

picture: IMG_7112.jpg
IMG_7112.jpg — (131.82к)

picture: IMG_7113.jpg
IMG_7113.jpg — (131.3к)

Likes: 1

20.02.2011 13:14, MisterXus

So it turns out that if you compare the description with Radusho butterflies, which, by the way, have red labels, then by all the signs described in the article, they are all tytlerianus !!!))))))))) Both Radusho butterflies have a submarginal as shown in the
Abb drawing. 1 a). And these are paratypes !!! The contradiction is complete )))

These signs are clearly variable.

I personally caught hundreds of hunza pairs on the Mainland in different years and I can say that their variability is rabid. There I came across tytlerianus and chitralika and gurkoensis ))))) There were even babies as big as simo.

I understand that the trip to Pakistan was not cheap and you need to recapture the money ))))

20.02.2011 14:09, barko

Here is an article describing gurkoensis, there was no scanner at hand, so I took a picture.
Dmitry, thank you. It was interesting to look at the current description of a taxon from this genus. smile.gif

20.02.2011 16:16, radusho

Thanks for posting this!!

When I saw how Eisner described tytlerianus, it looks, that all gurkoensis are really tytlerianus. Maybe DNA could help, but we can find out, that every locality has different DNA, so it can bring more questions than anwers.
I paid nothing for my male, so fornunately I do not have any loss on money wink.gif

Variability of this group is very high! Every locality has different butterflies and if the weather is ..strange" butterflies are ,,strange" too.

Regards,
Radovan

20.02.2011 19:01, MisterXus

P. hunza (Beik, Muztag-Sarikolskiy Mts. Tajikistan)

Pictures:
picture: IMG_4517_1.jpg
IMG_4517_1.jpg — (183.19к)

Likes: 7

20.02.2011 19:02, MisterXus

Well, what is not gurkoensis ?)))))))

21.02.2011 23:51, MisterXus

What's not a show-off? The junction of three borders (Afghanistan-Tajikistan-China)
The eastern part of the Hindu Kush is Muztag-Sarykolsky district. h- 4500 - 4700

22.02.2011 22:46, MisterXus

I advise you to read more detailed maps of the General Staff 1: 50000 )))) and get better acquainted with the geography of the region. Where the Hindu Kush ridge meets the Sarykolsky ridge, there is the Muztag-Sarykolsky ridge. From it, the Muztag range (Pakistan-Ktiai border) departs to the Southwest. By the way, it was on the Muztag ridge that butterflies of the River s.hunza were first found.
Likes: 1

25.02.2011 14:55, DYNASTES

user posted image


Please help me determine the subspecies of tianshanikus

Data on the date and place of capture-Kyrgyz ridge, Uzun-Gyr, 2700-2800 m. above lv. m. 14.07.1984

02.08.2011 17:40, Sergey Rybalkin

Photo of 6 species of Altai apollons out of 7 that live in the Altai. Only Tenedius remained without my attention, but there were other priorities...

Pictures:
picture: P.stubbendorffii_male___female.jpg
P.stubbendorffii_male___female.jpg — (271.91к)

picture: P.stubbendorffii_male.jpg
P.stubbendorffii_male.jpg — (234.79к)

picture: P.stubbendorffii_male_1.jpg
P.stubbendorffii_male_1.jpg — (251.81к)

picture: P.stubbendorffii_male_6.jpg
P.stubbendorffii_male_6.jpg — (256.71к)

Likes: 14

02.08.2011 17:44, Sergey Rybalkin

Mixed up in the name of the last photo, of course this is a female stubbendorfi...

13.08.2011 10:46, Sergey Rybalkin

This is the first time I've seen an apollo with red spots on its front wings. Quite a lot of them caught in different regions, and in our country, and here is such a female...

Pictures:
picture: P.apollo_limicola_female.jpg
P.apollo_limicola_female.jpg — (258.85к)

picture: P_apollo_female_1.jpg
P_apollo_female_1.jpg — (258.88к)

13.08.2011 13:41, А.Й.Элез

Males of this species also have red spots on the forewings.

19.08.2011 22:31, Kharkovbut

The most interesting type is in the upper left corner! tongue.gif
Likes: 2

19.08.2011 22:58, okoem

I was bullied by Resize. cut the table in half, still resizes to almost complete unreadability of labels.

You can bypass resizing. http://savepic.ru/

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