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Pierce through beetles in collections?

Community and ForumEntomological collectionsPierce through beetles in collections?

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06.11.2009 0:23, Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg

I've been using stationery PVA for a long time. By the way, it is also used in many museums (Natural History, Oxford-I saw it myself).

celluloid in pear essence was used in the 90s. THE HORROR!!! These are recommendations "from the depths of time". About the same as peat entomological boxes: yes, peat, yes, it was done for decades, yes tradition! But who will do it now?
Likes: 2

06.11.2009 0:29, Victor Titov

 
Here's what's interesting: it seems that transparent celluloid dies are really more convenient and practical. Then the question arises: why did foreign merchants from entomology not set up the production of such dies, but sell opaque cardboard ones?

But no one answered this question of mine. At least who would put forward a version, from those who use celluloid? What, zabugorniki-enemies of progress? I don't think so. After all, they also brought us the fashion to glue 5-centimeter beetles on dies! shuffle.gif confused.gif

06.11.2009 0:37, Zlopastnyi Brandashmyg

But no one answered this question of mine. At least who would put forward a version, from those who use celluloid? What, zabugorniki-enemies of progress? I don't think so. After all, they also brought us the fashion to glue 5-centimeter beetles on dies! shuffle.gif  confused.gif


And there will be no problems with the strength? I remember that the strength of celluloid glue wanted much better, sometimes the insect eventually fell off itself.

06.11.2009 0:42, Victor Titov

And there will be no problems with the strength? I remember that the strength of celluloid glue wanted much better, sometimes the insect eventually fell off itself.

That's what I think. It seems to me that PVA sticks less firmly to celluloid, in addition, celluloid is more elastic than cardboard, under some conditions such a die, bending, can spring off the beetle. That's why I can't decide to switch from homemade cardboard dies to celluloid ones. After all, I want my collection to survive me, and for a long smile.giftime .

06.11.2009 0:53, Necrocephalus

It is convenient to stick the material on celluloid dies using transparent nail polish. And the bottom is visible, and everything is fine. If it is necessary to remount, the varnish is easily dissolved with ethyl acetate.
The dies themselves can be made from transparent sheets for printing slides. Just print an empty table with cells of the desired size on such a sheet. If you carefully cut it, it turns out quite nothing. However, such dies are suitable only for small things - they are too flexible.

06.11.2009 0:55, Proctos

It seems to me that celluloid substrates are not durable. After a couple of decades, they may deform and become cloudy. If you change the pin for any reason, the hole will crack and turn black. In any case, such triangles of the 50s that I have at my disposal look very unpresentable, as I described above.
Plastic is plastic, and cardboard is a time-tested thing! You can also use paper for photo printers with a large number of densities 190.
Likes: 1

06.11.2009 1:04, Necrocephalus

It seems to me that celluloid substrates are not durable. After a couple of decades, they may deform and become cloudy. If you change the pin for any reason, the hole will crack and turn black. In any case, such triangles of the 50s that I have at my disposal look very unpresentable, as I described above.
Plastic is plastic, and cardboard is a time-tested thing! You can also use paper for photo printers with a large number of densities of 190.

In the university collection, I saw such dies originally from the 70s. They look like they've just been sliced. Of course, not the 50s, but still... Probably, the plastic is different.

06.11.2009 3:02, Guest

Does the PVA glue stick securely to celluloid? And won't everything fall apart in 10-20 years? It has been proven in practice that the polish glue "Super Cement" used in the past and colorless nail polish hold well, but they have other problems that appear if you need to soften and remove from the die.

06.11.2009 11:45, omar

Just pick up the plastic carefully! If it is muddy and cracked from the very beginning, don't take it! Normal plastic is a very durable thing, cooler in this sense than cardboard. PVA on plastic holds securely. The only problem is that while it is still liquid and not frozen, a large and heavy beetle can move on the slippery plastic under its mass. The solution is to apply a drop of glue and wait until it thickens a little.

06.11.2009 12:35, Victor Titov

Normal plastic is a very durable thing, cooler in this sense than cardboard. PVA on plastic holds securely.

Duc, after all, why are not such dies available for sale by manufacturers of entomological equipment? So, there is still a minus sign that stops you? А?

06.11.2009 13:21, Bad Den

Duc, after all, why are not such dies available for sale by manufacturers of entomological equipment? So, there is still a minus sign that stops you? Eh?

Perhaps a high production cost? confused.gif

This post was edited by Bad Den - 11/06/2009 13: 21

06.11.2009 13:26, Victor Titov

Perhaps a high production cost? confused.gif

I don't think so. The plastic that many people use for DIY projects, most often in the field of its application in general, is a consumable material, and, most likely, not much more expensive than cardboard. And then, even if it is more expensive, but much more functional, cardboard dies ((so to speak, publicly available) and celluloid ("elite") would be produced. After all, there are pins "black" and "white"? Birch and mahogany boxes?

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 06.11.2009 13: 26
Likes: 1

06.11.2009 14:15, Liparus

Citizens, use transparent celluloid dies! Nothing is etched into them and the taped area of the beetle is visible!


I was told by one person that with such transparent dies, light is reflected if you take a photo, what you need to do from paper...I obeyed and now I have all the elephants not on plastic dies.

06.11.2009 14:16, Aaata

I don't think so. The plastic that many people use for DIY projects, most often in the field of its application in general, is a consumable material, and, most likely, not much more expensive than cardboard. And then, even if it is more expensive, but much more functional, cardboard dies ((so to speak, publicly available) and celluloid ("elite") would be produced. After all, there are pins "black" and "white"? Birch and mahogany boxes?

Isn't it just a simple fashion statement and following well-established stereotypes?
Likes: 1

06.11.2009 14:20, Liparus

Duc, after all, why are not such dies available for sale by manufacturers of entomological equipment? So, there is still a minus sign that stops you? Eh?

Here were issued and probably are issued

This post was edited by Liparus - 06.11.2009 14: 23

Pictures:
 картинки уже нет на сайте: 2__Lot_of_179_prepared_Chrysidids_from_Europe__N_Africa__Siberia__C_Asia__Kyrgyzstan__Uzbekistan__Turkmenistan__Kazachstan__Tadjikistan_..JPG 2__Lot_of_179_prepared_Chrysidids_from_Europe__N_Africa__Siberia__C_Asia__Kyrgyzstan__Uzbekistan__Turkmenistan__Kazachstan__Tadjikistan_..JPG — (507.97к) 06.11.2009 — 20.11.2009
Likes: 1

06.11.2009 14:37, omar

I've never seen them sold anywhere! I asked specifically! I would love to buy it, my time is precious to me
wall.gif

06.11.2009 15:05, Victor Titov

Isn't it just a simple fashion statement and following well-established stereotypes?

Well, I don't think so either. Stereotypes are changing. Beetles have been pricked for centuries, but now only a few (including mesmile.gif) are pricking large ones. Transparent dies have an obvious advantage in terms of "visibility", visibility of the copy in comparison with cardboard ones. And if they are not produced, it means that the reason is not in adherence to stereotypes, but in something else.

Here were issued and probably are issued

By whom are they issued? Where? Did you buy them yourself? How much? Need more detailed information.
I've never seen them sold anywhere! I asked specifically! I would love to buy it, my time is precious to me
wall.gif

That's it! They are also missing from online stores ' catalogues.

06.11.2009 15:53, Guest

In the photo Liparus, and it is possible that the transparent dies of artisanal production.
Likes: 1

06.11.2009 18:48, RippeR

in general, dies are produced and sold, and it is strange that someone has not heard about it at all.. Few people stick on their dies. They were even present at the congress, but there was little interest in them. I would like to buy some dies, but it's not convenient to order them yet. and at the congress there were only large ones..
But I haven't seen plastic dies on sale - probably not a convenient and expensive production..

06.11.2009 22:58, Liparus

And if they are not produced, it means that the reason is not in adherence to stereotypes, but in something else.

The reason is probably that when shooting a beetle on a photo object, the die reflects light (flash), so they stamp all the paper ones.Yes and pi soaking paper gets wet, while plastic does...

06.11.2009 23:33, Victor Titov

in general, dies are produced and sold, and it is strange that someone has not heard about it at all.. Few people stick on their dies. They were even present at the congress, but there was little interest in them. I would like to buy some dies, but it's not convenient to order them yet. and at the congress there were only large ones..
But I haven't seen plastic dies on sale - probably not a convenient and expensive production..

RippeR, and here no one says that the dies are not sold at all. The only question discussed is why only cardboard ones are sold, and plastic ones are not sold. The high cost of production is not an argument, I have already stated this above, if you want-look at my today's post at 13=26.
The reason is probably that when shooting a beetle on a photo object, the die reflects light (flash), so they stamp all the paper ones.Yes and pi soaking paper gets wet, while plastic does...

I don't think the arguments are very convincing, either. After all, beetles are not collected primarily for photography. In addition, you can take a picture on a transparent die, choosing the appropriate lighting.
And as for soaking-so the glue in the wet chamber will go away, the beetle will soften and calmly remove from the celluloid die. And it can be reused if desired, unlike cardboard-that's another plus.
No, there is something else that interferes with their "factory", so to speak, production. That's what? confused.gif

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 06.11.2009 23: 35

06.11.2009 23:55, RippeR

Ahh, I see now what the question is smile.gif

I assume that the reason may lie in the method of production. If the device cuts in such a way that when using plastic, it would turn out with curved edges, deformed, etc...
Another option - just no one does and there is no reason..
Likes: 1

07.11.2009 0:52, Victor Titov

Interestingly, and abroad (I mean everything that is outside the former USSR) is glued to celluloid dies? Who knows?

07.11.2009 13:52, RippeR

Yes

07.11.2009 14:29, Victor Titov

Yes? Andrey, you saw it yourself? Where, from whom? A private collection or attached to an institution or museum? It just seems to me for some reason (perhaps this is a false stereotype) that foreign entomologists are more massively committed to using purchased, "branded" equipment. Something tells me (maybe a subterfuge wink.gif) that it is unlikely that they will cut the dies themselves. And if they use celluloid ones, then they buy them somewhere? Then why don't we have them on sale? confused.gif

07.11.2009 15:05, RippeR

http://www.cerambycidae.cz/offer.htm
although here you can see that many beetles have been on pins... People came to their senses, the material, in my opinion, is exemplary smile.gif

they sell dies, and you can find them in Entomon or No. 1. Naturally, in Europe, it is more likely that no one will do it themselves - when they are very affordable. I think we have a die-cutting machine in ZINA - Vleri Derzhansky showed me the dies he once cut there.

07.11.2009 15:18, Victor Titov

Interestingly, and abroad (I mean everything that is outside the former USSR) is glued to celluloid dies? Who knows?

  http://www.cerambycidae.cz/offer.htm
although here you can see that many beetles have been on pins... People came to their senses, the material, in my opinion, is exemplary smile.gif
they sell dies, and you can find them in Entomon or No. 1. Naturally, in Europe, it is more likely that no one will do it themselves - when they are very affordable. I think we have a die-cutting machine in Zina - Vleri Derzhansky showed me the dies he once cut there.

Andrey, you're not talking about that again! wall.gif I know perfectly well that cardboard dies are sold, and I used Entomon's services. And according to the link you provided, there are no beetles stuck on transparent, celluloid dies - that's what I was asking! no.gif And since we agreed not to argue any more about impaling large beetles or gluing, agreeing that this is a matter of taste, let's no longer talk about the quality of the material (exemplary, not exemplary) depending on whether it is impaled or pasted. As for the little things-who is arguing here - we are still almost completely glued! Therefore, we are discussing the material for dies. Okay?" wink.gif

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 07.11.2009 15: 20

07.11.2009 15:53, RippeR

Sorry, I misunderstood smile.gif
I've seen plastic dies from foreign collectors somewhere, but in a small number, they are most likely homemade. But I haven't seen it on sale, and I've never heard of it.. All I saw was paper.

And an exemplary one - in terms of stickerssmile.gif, i.e. qualitatively formed. Nothing personal. The rest is a matter of everyone's taste )

ps something seemed to me that cellulose is something paperyrolleyes.gif shuffle.gif, so such strange recent posts. I looked in the dictionary, and realized what the problem was )))
Likes: 1

07.11.2009 20:22, Liparus

No need to argue glue or prick.And so I think it's clear that
not pricked beetles are better than pricked ones.
It's like A=A.Only pricked beetle not = not pricked

This post was edited by Liparus - 07.11.2009 20: 32
Likes: 1

07.11.2009 23:56, Victor Titov

  No need to argue glue or prick.And so I think it's clear that
not pricked beetles are better than pricked ones.
It's like A=A.Only pricked beetle not = not pricked

Arthur, we've all agreed here that this "glue or stick" argument is over. And the main thing in your post is "no need to argue". Everything else is unnecessary peremptoriness. Is it clear to you that a non-stabbed beetle is better? And for several decades now, it has been clear to me that a carefully pricked beetle is better than a beetle with a taped bottom. And neither you nor I can change each other's minds, so let's keep our opinions to ourselves. Like-glue. And it's hopeless to convert me in my sixties.
Likes: 2

08.11.2009 0:50, RippeR

then I will convert to my unbelief ))
Likes: 2

09.11.2009 11:44, Aleksandr Safronov

I tried to glue beetles on dies made of transparent plastic-mounting matte film Astrolon, used in printing. The film is very dense, matte. Glue - stationery PVA. If you accidentally touch a pin in the box with your finger, a sharp jerk of the pin can cause the beetle to fly off the die. I've had this happen many times. I even applied punctures to the place where the glue was applied with a pin for better bonding. You might want to try a different glue. On the cardboard, the beetle is held firmly, there are no questions. Therefore, now only genital preparations are glued to transparent plastic.
Likes: 1

09.11.2009 13:40, Victor Titov

I tried to glue beetles on dies made of transparent plastic-mounting matte film If you accidentally touch a pin in the box with your finger, from a sharp jerk of the pin, the beetle can fly off the die. I've had this happen many times. On the cardboard, the beetle is held firmly, there are no questions. Therefore, now only genital preparations are glued to transparent plastic.

What was required to prove! smile.gif

This post was edited by Dmitrich - 09.11.2009 13: 45

09.11.2009 14:15, omar

I haven't lost a single bug so far! But Nada will try to pull the pins lol.gifFor some reason this has not been done until now. I've been gluing on plastic since about 2004. So far, there have been no such precedents. smile.gif
Likes: 1

09.11.2009 14:32, Aleksandr Safronov

A small clarification - medium and large size beetles flew. Small ones, IMHO, will hold up normally. On cardboard, the glue is absorbed into the surface layer, so it holds firmly. Plastic has one nice thing besides transparency. If you remove the die from the pin repeatedly, the pin will re-enter the same hole with a tight fit. As a result, the die does not rotate on the pin. On cardboard, you have to either re-pierce the die, or use a thicker pin.
Likes: 2

09.11.2009 14:45, omar

the large ones I pierce frown.gifare

09.11.2009 15:05, Victor Titov

I pierce the big ones frown.gif

Similarly! Only after all, the question of where the krupnyak ends and the trifle begins is also relative. For pricking beetles about 1.5-2.5 cm, I use pins 00-000. With the larger ones, everything is clear. And I stick (on cardboard) those that are less than 1 cm, or soft, narrow, etc. However, recently I began to selectively use the favorite RippeR technology for fairly large beetlessmile.gif-I stick beetles on the side to the right under the middle chest on a small narrow cardboard die, while the pin inserted into it is on the right from the beetle's body.
Likes: 1

09.11.2009 15:40, RippeR

And I have other problems - which beetles to stick on large dies, and which ones on small triangular or rectangular ones under the side )
Usually all the little things that are almost impossible to straighten out well without a die, I put glue on the dies. Some more glue on large dies, if you do not have to look from below - some carabidka or elephants. Otherwise - first define, and then glue..
Even first I straighten the pretenders - it turns out a little crooked, but I hope to determine them someday ))
Likes: 3

09.11.2009 16:18, omar

I used to stab even those who are smaller than 12 mm. And now I glue all up to 15 mm inclusive, except for the heaviest and most massive beetles.
Likes: 2

09.11.2009 18:13, Liparus

There is also an option not to glue or prick:- ) on mattresses to collect, or two needles from the sides to fix in the frame...

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