Catocala (Noctuidae)

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24.10.2012 11:47, barko

So what about these two taxa - synonyms or different species???

Officially, orientalis is considered a synonym for puerpera. Ostensibly, orientalis was first synonymized by Salsdaitis et al in 2008 (I do not have this publication). In 2010, Vladimir Kononenko in his book Noctuidae Sibiricae Vol. 2 reduces orientalis to synonyms for puerpera.

excerpt from Kononenko's book

picture: kononenko2010.jpg

If he did, then he did, but that's where the questions come in. In the thesis, he lists the differences in which orientalis was recognized as a good species, and as a counterargument writes:: "I didn't find any significant differences." But in such a high-profile case, you need to make a thorough comparison, give detailed explanations of your position, and provide evidence. And here is just an opinion expressed.
The problem of these two taxa is still far from being solved.

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17.01.2013 2:03, Noctua

Officially, orientalis is considered a synonym for puerpera. Ostensibly, orientalis was first synonymized by Salsdaitis et al in 2008 (I do not have this publication). In 2010, Vladimir Kononenko in his book Noctuidae Sibiricae Vol. 2 reduces orientalis to synonyms for puerpera.

excerpt from Kononenko's book

If he did, then he did, but that's where the questions come in. In the thesis, he lists the differences in which orientalis was recognized as a good species, and as a counterargument writes:: "I didn't find any significant differences." But in such a high-profile case, you need to make a thorough comparison, give detailed explanations of your position, and provide evidence. And here is just an opinion expressed.
The problem of these two taxa is still far from being solved.

I agreed with Vladimir Stepanovich's opinion about orientalis, although he really hastened things. When I did an article with Klyuchko, she rather wanted to have more species in the fauna of Ukraine.

I have only stated, following the publication of Noctuidae Europaeae on different specimens, that there are natural differences between Western and eastern populations, which are more noticeable in females. But in the area of intersection - the Lower Volga region - it is almost impossible to separate them. Rather, there is a smooth transition from west to east. But the synonymization of puerpera and Central Asian pallida is questionable.

17.01.2013 12:15, Noctua

If you believe in C. deducta as a separate species, then it seems like it! The fact is that there are no significant differences in the structure of the genital apparatus in these species. And the image of a seemingly non-curved aedeagus in C elocata in volume 10 NE, which later migrated to the Scoop of Siberia , is incorrect. Unfortunately, I didn't have access to the standard material. But I digested dozens of them, and with the exception of color and wing patterns, I found no differences between these taxa. Interestingly, adults with the "deducta" phenotype dominate in the south-eastern regions of Ukraine, while in the rest of the territory - the classic "elocata".

When I was preparing an article with an Iranian colleague on Iranian Catocala (not completed for some reason), I specifically asked him to cook all the copies from the Tehran museum that I thought looked like deducta. It turned out that there are both species and the ranges almost overlap. In European Russia, they are also quite sympathetic, although deducta is more southern. The typical deducta from Zaisan generally has white forewings (and this is clearly not an artifact), other individuals from Eastern Kazakhstan are also whitish or glaucous, so it is hardly possible to talk about the "deducta phenotype" - it is more variable than elocata.

But I agree that the preparations of a number of order ribbons in Noctuidae Europaeae are unsuccessful.

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17.01.2013 16:30, barko

I agreed with Vladimir Stepanovich's opinion about orientalis, although he really hastened things. When I did an article with Klyuchko, she rather wanted to have more species in the fauna of Ukraine. I have only stated, following the publication of Noctuidae Europaeae on different specimens, that there are natural differences between Western and eastern populations, which are more noticeable in females. But in the area of intersection - the Lower Volga region - it is almost impossible to separate them. Rather, there is a smooth transition from west to east. But the synonymization of puerpera and Central Asian pallida is questionable.

I will not comment on anything, but I will only say that I study these two taxa with great interest.

18.01.2013 16:20, rhopalocera.com

Thanks for the information. So much the better. It is a pity that this was not reflected in the publications, and I realized from recent correspondence with him that it is not expected yet... I meant that he definitely didn't cook the turanica, since it costs a whole lot. And the group needs a very detailed revision based on material from different places. In the original description, there is no image of amabilis at all, I checked, and I don't have Shelyuzhko's work, since there are no late "Irises"in ZINA...

Late Irises can be found on the Biodiversity Heritage Library (Google searches very quickly) or in the Gallica library. Publications, I hope, will be-the main thing is that A.V. has enough strength and health for this.

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