Sphingidae Hawkmoths

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13.02.2012 18:51, dim-va

I'll try to cook some European sympatric ones tomorrow. I was wondering myself

This is one of the most difficult cases in sphingidology. The male genitals, like those of other Hoerocampinas, work poorly. Better differences in females, where porcellus signum is about half the height of the bag, and suellus-about 2 3. Previously, it was once postulated that suellus is in the mountains, P - in the lowlands, and that the color is yellower-pinker. No. Everything is more complicated. In general, you intuitively feel that the types are different, and it is not always possible to grasp clear differences. I will be glad if you can find something like this.
And where, excuse me, is sympatry in the European part? I released this moment. From Astrakhan, all here are porcelluses. Even from Kazakhstan, I would consider only the lower suellus, which is from 1830. If we are talking about the Ciscaucasia.... it's a different story there.

This post was edited by dim-va-13.02.2012 18: 56

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13.02.2012 20:27, dim-va

Sympatry in the Astrakhan region - in the ROC. Dosanga. In any case, desert hawk moth (which were far removed from settlements and trees) and those from more mesophytic stations are different. .. If someone is going to start sequencing, I would break off 1 leg at a time before soaking them and spreading them out. This would be a much more objective analysis.

so just xero - and meso-porcelluses are different in color. In drier places, they should be yellower. Yes, I can run it on COI, but only then do I need butterflies of topotype origin for objectivity. This
is Deil[ephila]. Porcellus L. var.? Suellus STAUDINGER, Horae Soc. ent. Ros. 14: 298. TL: “von Tokat, … bei Amasia … im Kerasdere, …. aus Borschom”.
I can't guarantee, however, that there will be a definite result, but I myself am very interested. We will write down the question in the personal account.

14.02.2012 15:54, Sergey Rybalkin

This is one of the most difficult cases in sphingidology. The male genitals, like those of other Hoerocampinas, work poorly. Better differences in females, where porcellus signum is about half the height of the bag, and suellus-about 2 3. Previously, it was once postulated that suellus is in the mountains, P - in the lowlands, and that the color is yellower-pinker. No. Everything is more complicated. In general, you intuitively feel that the types are different, and it is not always possible to grasp clear differences. I will be glad if you can find something like this.
And where, excuse me, is sympatry in the European part? I released this moment. From Astrakhan, all here are porcelluses. Even from Kazakhstan, I would consider only the lower suellus, which is from 1830. If we are talking about the Ciscaucasia.... it's a different story there.

If you look closely at the photo on the previous page of my hawkmoth, then the entire right row is from Dagestan from one place, and I also thought that the pink top is porcellus, and the gray ones below are suellus. But I was assured that suellus in this case is a myth, although they clearly differ in color, and there are more gray ones than pink ones in about a ratio of 3 :10.

14.02.2012 16:27, dim-va

If you look closely at the photo on the previous page of my hawkmoth, then the entire right row is from Dagestan from one place, and I also thought that the pink top is porcellus, and the gray ones below are suellus. But I was assured that suellus in this case is a myth, although they clearly differ in color, and there are more gray ones than pink ones in about a ratio of 3: 10.

Personally, my point of view, without any claim to absolute correctness , is the upper P, all the other S.
I like Pittaway's site, except that there's no way he wants to accept any changes to his understanding of the scope of species. In 1913, it seems, Rothschild and Jordan published a huge work on the systematics of hawk moth, and it is on this work that the list of world fauna is now based. It is considered not just bad form, but almost a crime to violate this system. Many of our sphingidologists suffer from this - both Pitaway (who is generally an amateur), and Kiching (who, it would seem, professionally leads a scoop, but absolutely aprofessionally systematizes hawkmoth), and the late Cadier. As a result, many new species, especially from "beaten" places or countries in terms of fees, are immediately declared nonsense. So it was with Hyles exulans, and with the gorgeous Mongolian Hyles churkini, which was immediately written off as hybrids (???), and with the eye-shaped hawk moth of Visinskas, which is generally not considered for its shape, despite fundamentally different antennas, that is, chemical signals. The other pole is the work of Ulf Eichberger, who immediately looks at the morphology of eggs and caterpillars, if possible, and genitals of both sexes and scales, etc.but usually, it seems to me, splits one species into many independent species, the status of which for me is often debatable. Well, everyone has their own point of view on the volume of species and what is considered individual variability and what is considered a species. There is a third facet. These are the latest works of Ron Brechlin, who now distinguishes species based on differences in gene sequences, mainly COI. I would be happy to recognize such types, but Ron usually does not report diagnoses ("the type clearly differs in CO1"), and the sequences themselves are also not given. Therefore, his point of view is not checked by anything.
Don't accept Pittaway's work as the ultimate truth. This, you know, is not a dogma. Well, he doesn't like to change his established views on views. Leave it to him. Try to figure it out for yourself.
And as for the material from Dagestan-maybe we can also sequence them? I want to understand for myself what is suellus?

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14.02.2012 22:19, mikee

I had the same situation during a night fishing trip in southern Armenia. Bright pink and gray-yellow butterflies flew to the screen in approximately equal proportions, no color transitions. They looked clearly like two different species. One of my colleagues later told me that these are temperature variations of porcellus. For example, as an option, some pupae were located on the sunny side of the mountain, and others on the shadow side.

And in the north-east of the Ryazan region, there is a full spectrum of color transitions from porcellus to suelus. From almost completely pink to brown-yellow. And they all fly at the same time. I didn't specifically calculate the distribution and didn't build it, but with a large sample size (several dozen copies per night), color variations have an intuitively normal distribution in terms of frequency of occurrence, i.e. standard colors and close ones prevail. This allows you to count all instances as belonging to the same type. Not strictly, of course, but...

This post was edited by mikee - 02/14/2012 22: 24