RES Congress No. 14

Inf. emails started opening today, I read them and thought about them
On the one hand, there is a natural increase in the amount of contributions, compared with the two past arrivals, there are discounts for students, but on the other hand - I think glanvoe is not a contribution, but accommodation/food for 6 days.
Another interesting thing is that according to the posted data on the two past congresses, there is an increase in applications for participation, and a decrease in the number of actual participants.
Therefore, we can assume that this time there will be about 1200 applications and in fact there will be about 300 registered members

As for the restoration of the former scientific elitism, so what is the problem-accept the society according to the actual work, according to the estimates of written articles, etc. And conduct an audit of the composition not according to who pays the dues, but according to the same actual work.
Simply, the main point is important - either you need more participants to make more contributions, or you need more accumulated material

L. V. Bolshakov's reply to Mr. Musolin

Dear colleagues! Before acting as lawyers for the REO Presidium, study the practical experience of holding conferences in Russia and the REO charter-it says who should pay what. True, I have a Charter mod. 1998 - but I have not heard that it has changed.

So you ask:
"Excuse me, who should pay for our Congress?"! ZIN? Yes, an application for a grant from the Russian Foundation for Basic Research will be submitted, but this will be decided in the SUMMER. And if they don't? And you think that the RFBR grant can be used to pay for coffee breaks and someone else's work? You are very much mistaken. If, SUDDENLY, it turns out that there is money left, it will be spent on food and other expenses, and everything will be reported at the congress. No one is trying to make money on contributions. If you have any ideas where to get money for the congress, PLEASE write to the REO.

LB: 1) As you know, we have ZIN RAS. And REO is also officially "pri RAS". I do not know which was founded earlier, ZIN or REO (the last one was in 1859), but it is practically "Siamese twins"! It is more than strange to hear that RAS does not support ZIN, and ZIN does not support REO!?

CHARTER, Article 6.1: "The Company's property is formed at the expense of GRANTS from the Russian Academy of Sciences, economic activities... and other sources not prohibited by law."

2) If ... the Presidium met in 2011 and decided - we will hold a congress in a year, but there is no money and we will ask the society - I will not believe in such frivolity on the part of serious people. The dates of the congresses are specified!

5.2: "Regular congresses of REO are convened...at least once every five years."

That is, grants and other assistance from the ZIN, the Russian Academy of Sciences, and finally the Forestry Engineering Academy should have been negotiated soon after the end of the 13th congress!

3) I wonder why conferences in Kaluga, Ulyanovsk, Penza, Belev, etc., etc., are held by POOR INSTITUTIONS (local history museums, universities, national parks, districts) either EXCLUSIVELY at the expense of the organizers, or with organizational fees not exceeding 300 rubles.? This is the first time I've heard that guests pay for "breaks", stationery and extra payments to the staff! In Belev, there are even "heavy" banquets at the expense of the organizers (guests are discounted only for their continuation).

True, on Kulikovo Field in June 2011 there was a fee of 2000 rubles., but there for 3 days there were 3 meals a day, breaks, banquet, hotel accommodation (1-2 people in a room with TV and shower), delivery to the railway station (150 km away), excursions, collections (A4, 300 pages).). But this fee was taken only WHEN a person ARRIVED at the place! And those who did not come, they did not take a penny from them, but they sent the collection.

That's the difference between traditional Russian hospitality and New St. Petersburg ZHLOBSTVO! .
--"I am extremely surprised by your surprise. 1. Where in inform.the email is written about the remote control. participation?

LB: I quote the 2nd information letter of 13. X. 2011: "Authors should indicate their preferred form of participation (oral report, poster presentation, CORRESPONDENCE PARTICIPATION)."

Abstracts of the congress materials are a showcase of the Company's achievements over 5 years. Everyone who has achievements should be registered there, not just those who have arrived. And where did you see a conference with 100% arrival of all registered participants? There are always "part-time students", and I hope this will continue to be the case at all normal conferences.
---I don't really understand how REO should help. I haven't read the charter, to be honest, but I don't have any expectations. If the Board had a certain staff, structure, it would be possible to demand something. And so I do not och. understand. As far as I know, they maintain a library, publish something, actively edit the Ent Review, and hold events (under ZINA, of course).
LB: CHARTER, Article 2.1. " The main goals and objectives of REO are:

- actively promote the development of entomology and involve scientists and practitioners in solving current theoretical and practical problems…;

- PROVIDING SUPPORT to REO MEMBERS in implementing the results of their research;

- POPULARIZATION and PROMOTION of knowledge…;

- participation in solving issues related to NATURE PROTECTION.", etc.

Article 3.5. " Full members of the REO have the right to ::

- use the help of REO in obtaining consultations, ... methodological guidelines;

- use the REO library.".

Article 5.7. "The Presidium of the REO CA-MANAGES all scientific, organizational, financial and economic activities of the REO".

Another thing is that REO officially works on a voluntary basis. But in this we are all equal-both the President of the REO, and the academician, and the chairman of the regional branch, and the most "green" neophyte. Only here we are in the province of all that is said above do better than in St. Petersburg!
> We are published, alas, not in the EA in which we "break through" as they say "does not shine"
- why? The question is in the obstacles or the quality of articles?
LB: What makes you think that all the articles in EO are of high quality? I don't think so, at least for a good half of the lepidopterological articles that have appeared in EA recently. I wouldn't let any other" rating-driven "imitator authors into the collection I'm editing for a" lemon"!

Again, we must distinguish between EDITORIAL WORK and EDITORIAL RUDENESS. I review any article submitted to the collection within a month (or even a week) and respond to the author on the merits. If the article is interesting for readers, but with shortcomings, then I help you finalize it, sometimes only from the 10th version it goes to print. And the EO may not respond to you, delay the article for many years, or simply reject it without a clear explanation with an anonymous unsubscribe. In general, the editorial boards of Ranovsky and Vakov magazines are full of rudeness, thugs and corruption.
> You are surprised that the circulation of the Entomological Review is 200 copies, so who is to blame for this - well, we are not ordinary "entomoluhi" sorry...
-"wait, who is it?"?
LB: 200 copies - normal average circulation for a scientific journal. Enough for all research centers. But even with such a circulation, one issue should cost no more than 300 rubles at retail.! And the larger the print run , the cheaper the issue, the more customers, and the higher the payback. But most entomologists are not interested in buying such a magazine as the current EA - no more than 1-2 articles per issue are interesting for a relatively narrow specialist, it is easier to check them out. With Ranovsky's money , you need to produce thematic issues, stop playing pranks, set a normal market retail price - and you'll see how things go.

I don't have the opportunity to write such pamphlets and I'm not used to calling strangers rednecks, so in short.

> 1) As you know, we have ZIN RAS. And REO is also officially "pri RAS". I do not know which was founded earlier, ZIN or REO (the last one was in 1859), but it is practically "Siamese twins"! It is more than strange to hear that RAS does not support ZIN, and ZIN does not support REO!?
- supports it. I wrote with what. But not serious money for holding conventions, as far as I know.

> That is, grants and other assistance from the ZIN, the Russian Academy of Sciences, and finally the Forestry Engineering Academy should have been negotiated soon after the end of the 13th congress!
- I assumed that you were aware that you can apply for a grant for RFBR events 3 months before the event. ZIN and LTA are non-grant-making organizations.

> 3) For the first time I hear that guests pay for" breaks", stationery and extra payments to staff!
-- ?? If it is conducted by the society, then where to get money for it? If it is a university, then what article should I apply for? It doesn't make sense...

> Here is the difference between traditional Russian HOSPITALITY and New St. Petersburg ZHLOBSTVO! .
-- yes, this is the tone of a Russian intellectual......

> LB: I quote the 2nd information letter of 13. X. 2011: "Authors should indicate their preferred form of participation (oral report, poster presentation, CORRESPONDENCE PARTICIPATION)".
"hmm, sorry...

> Abstracts of the congress materials are a showcase of the Company's achievements over 5 years.
--Theses of reports are theses of REPORTS made at the conference. A report is a work, collection, report article, etc.


> Everyone who has achievements should be registered there, not just those who have arrived. And where did you see a conference with 100% arrival of all registered participants? There are always "part-time students", and I hope this will continue to be the case at all normal conferences.
- in the world, of course, this is not the case. Yes, there are always those who planned, but could not, but do not make a rule out of it.


> We are published, alas, not in the EA in which we "break through" as they say "does not shine"
- why? The question is in the obstacles or the quality of articles?
LB: What makes you think that all the articles in EO are of high quality? I don't think so, at least for a good half of the lepidopterological articles that have appeared in EA recently.
-"we read different articles, I guess...


I will offer to set a separate price for absentee participation on January 27. Although my opinion is that it is wrong to focus on it. This option is given in the email, probably in order to somehow understand who is really coming, because without it it is extremely difficult to plan-both the schedule, the audience, and the program.

(if I could refuse to participate in organizing the congress, I would be happy to do so after such discussions.)

2 Mr. Musolin
Who is lucky is driven. This is to the advantage of the fact that all the bigwigs are showered on ordinary organizers who solve questions and problems related to holding the Congress not at the table in their offices, but directly with their hands, feet and head (and to the detriment of their direct duties and free of charge). So, pay less attention to excessive emotions with strorona. Proosto is boiling up among people, and it seems that it is pouring out on you only because there are no organizers here on the forum except for you.
In general, the larger the event, the more people with different interests and quirks, the more hemorrhoid and hemorrhoid the organization becomes. Whether it was our Hymenopteran Symposium, no one even thought about the amount of the contribution, absentee participation, and other things that were far from the very purpose of this event. Like-minded people gathered, and every redneck is ready to help the organizers in any way they can if necessary. So people are looking forward to the next Symposium and people will be happy to organize it, understanding its significance and importance for a small group of people (as opposed to butterfly lovers and beetles) who have given their heart to the quail.
About absentee participation. If someone sleeps and sees that his theses are published, although he himself is not going to come to the Congress, if someone after this publication feels like a real member of the REO and even more like a real entomologist, then so be it. Make a smaller contribution for such friends and let them put their "achievements on the showcase".

Maxim, I did not understand - these words were attributed to me and the Monastery???

- "About absentee participation. If someone sleeps and sees that his theses are published, although he himself is not going to come to the Congress, if someone after this publication feels like a real member of the REO and even more like a real entomologist, then so be it. Make a smaller contribution for such friends and let them put their "achievements on the showcase".

How to put it mildly, in a more intelligent way, let's say...
If you receive a salary for your scientific work, then Bolshakov and I work in the field of entomology for a pure idea! And I will not even hide it, we invest OUR modest and HARD-earned funds in research - without demanding ANYTHING from society as a whole. If it weren't for the koi grants that scientists in major research centers and cities receive for research, I would also look at the RESULTS of the WORK of a considerable number of PROFESSIONAL entomologists.
If you, or anyone else, think that we "sleep and see that his theses are printed" - then you do not seem to know at all about our entomological research (and the full popularization of ENTOMOLOGY and entomological research in the European part of Russia). Why so then!? If we do not know about your activities in the field of entomological research, we are modestly silent about it. If you feel like a "real" entomologist , then this is purely your PERSONAL opinion.

How much did Lavr Valeryevich Bolshakov do for entomology in Russia (without a shadow of a doubt, I will even say such high-sounding words) putting HIS LIFE on it-this is still not given to everyone! And not just beat your chest there at various congresses and conferences, but conduct real RESEARCH activities on the ground, process a HUGE AMOUNT of FACTUAL material in the field of NOT ONLY lepidopterology, DO EVERYTHING possible to help young researchers from the hinterland where there are no PROFESSIONAL entomologists, edit and print a GOOD scientific journal, etc., etc. And at the same time do not get absolutely NOTHING for all (for all) this activity - many (I'm just sure) "don't have the guts"!

In a place that would scrupulously understand everything and conduct a CONSTRUCTIVE conversation, our DISPUTE slides in particular and picking at various "remote" places that are unattractive for most of the researchers present. If REO plans to remain purely ELITIST in the future, and even, if I may say so, a kind of SMALL-town club of large cities and research centers for the ELITE, then so be it. Please understand that we are conducting this entire conversation not for the sake of some private and personal antlers, but for the sake of the very IDEA of entomological research in Russia and neighboring countries of the former Soviet Union in such difficult and mercantile times! We have GREAT RESPECT for the entomological SPECIALISTS in ZINA, who in such a MUDDY time still find the strength to pull the "cart" of SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH in Russia without any kind of"na no-technologies". And the antler elitism and rascality are sorry enough for us on the ground.

PS Yes, I added something else to my post # 33 of this thread, in case anyone didn't notice...

Always yours sincerely, Sanych.

This post was edited by Penzyak - 20.01.2012 10: 47

I didn't go into any specifics, it seemed to you. And even more so, I did not compare anyone with myself or with anyone else.
What I get paid for I report to my management, just as you probably do to yours. Who spends how much and on what svloi blood is deeply indifferent to me, that's why they have their own blood.
Everyone's contribution to entomology will be judged by time, and I am very glad that there are people who support the cause of their life and promote it in every possible way. And just so you know. I have a negative attitude to REO as a society in its present form. I joined its ranks simply because I was asked why not. In addition to regular contributions, I did not help the REO in any way, but it actually somehow does not suit me either. But I have boundless respect and admiration for people who carry this REO (bad, good) on themselves. For example, instead of another interesting trip to an expedition or a foreign museum, such people are forced to spend the entire field season editing a lot of nonsense sent to them and buying toilet paper and pens with notebooks, printing badges and other organizational garbage. Such as the only person who found the time and desire to join this discussion among people related to the organization of the Congress, Mr. Musolin. So what's the BIG REDNECK greedy about?!
The issues of reorganizing and improving the existence of REO should be resolved personally and with people who can solve it, i.e. at the Congress itself. This is hardly possible in absentia. That's what I was trying to convey to you. audiences. And we get some kind of dispute between the well-fed ( in your understanding, favored by high salaries and a bunch of grants) and the hungry (spending the last penny on entomology). And this is not the case at all....

Yesterday we met in Zina with Leonid. I read this "dispute" and blurted it out... We had a little fun. I remembered the great wisdom "initiative is punishable" and decided that I would not suffer such a punishment, and therefore I would not go to the organizing committee. But still, what prevents you from agreeing to organize a similar symposium in parallel with the REO congress with the printing of abstracts in some private printing house (or even on a risograph - if only the official ISBN is made) and with a smaller amount of contributions? So to speak, "congress for the poor"? And, by the way, it could be held (partially or completely) in a teleconference mode - when people or a part of them communicate via webcams and monitors, without being present in the hall in person.

This post was edited by PVOzerski - 20.01.2012 13: 01

Bravo, Pasha! About the teleconference-a good idea, because with a physical visit to St. Petersburg less than 1000 rubles.it is not realistic to meet.

L. V. Bolshakov (Tula, Tula branch of REO).
Answer to Mr. Musolin
yesterday, 23: 12

--"...and I'm not used to calling strangers rednecks, so I'll just keep it short.
LB: This is not about specific people (I don't know how the estimate was "born", whether it exists at all, and who needs to be called even stronger here), but about a collective phenomenon. What a single individual, and even more so a scientific person, cannot imagine, is made extremely easy in the "pack".
--- supports it. I wrote with what. But not serious money for holding conventions, as far as I know.
--- I assumed that you were aware that you can apply for a grant for RFBR events 3 months before the event. ZIN and LTA are non-grant-making organizations.

LB: Yes, I don't have time to get involved with the Russian Foundation for Basic Research bureaucracy. But even more strange is the organization: planning an event, not knowing if there will be money from one of the sources? - this way you can run into "not intended use". And it's clear who earns money (and doesn't get it for God knows what), and they won't want to give it to such a muddy organization.

I will briefly tell you how this is done in the poorest institution-the Belev district. This district center has several schools, 1 library and a district administration. All of them are happy that their life will be diversified by a scientific conference. As a result: local local historians remind them for half a year that it's time to get ready; they scratch on the bottom lines and find resources; all managers are happy to provide meeting space; even for normal food in the dining room, guests do not spend money (when 200 g of vodka on the nose is not enough, they are already looking for themselves).

In Kaluga (Local History Museum, Ugra National Park) there are no large halls, but they are provided with pleasure and free of charge by the Regional Library im. Belinsky, sometimes University. Resources for breaks, stationery - this is a matter for suppliers and accounting: the director ordered it, they do it. And all this is included in the estimates of institutions, since conferences are planned for about a year. Similarly, in Tula, the Kulikovo Field Museum; but in the field itself (150 km from the city) there is an infrastructure for receiving guests and holding events.

I'm surprised to read that in a city like St. Petersburg, you can't find a place where several dozen people can sit.! I haven't been to the Forest Academy, I don't know, but I think there is a conference hall and several classrooms for the separation of sections.
- - -?? If it is conducted by the society, then where to get money for it? If it is a university, then what article should I apply for? It doesn't make sense...

LB: According to the formula: REO in ZIN, ZIN in RAS. Both according to the Charter and"according to concepts". If you have to do this, then ask the accounting department. You will most likely be referred to the "loan manager" - this is either the director (rector) himself, or his deputy. on general issues (Vice-rector for Academic Affairs). They manage resources. All travel, "executive", and low-value consumables (such as pens, notebooks, cups, tea bags, and buns) are instantly debited under Article 082 or (M. B. at the university) 070. Relatively expensive and" sticking to your hands " consumables (now it can be for example disks, flash drives, even cartridges, expensive products, fuel, but generally depends on the accounting department) are carried out according to Article 060 - they are written off by an internal act for writing off ("Commission consisting of: chairman..., members...", etc.) - this is done in large institutions on special forms. And much of this in a large institution should be stored in a warehouse, something can be bought using commodity checks (although now, probably, with a "contest", this is a hemorrhoid). Material values are received and carried out only by financially responsible persons - every large laboratory, department, or department must have them. But all this should be done according to the will of the management - it manages the funds and approves all write-offs and other financial documents. This is a matter of internal order and discipline in the institution.

And if the management tells you that "we have no money", then you go to the more authoritative for the management of gentlemen-comrades, M. B. they are even members of the Presidium of the REO. These partners know very well how and from whom to ask for resources in their own organization and outside of it.

If they don't help you either, it means that REO and its events have become a burden for ZIN, RAS, the Forest Academy (as the host country and location of the Acting President of REO) and their leading employees (in pursuit of grants and "ratings").

But it is still not good to collect 1000 rubles for 1 page; it is necessary to collect 300 rubles only for the collection, as in the Mordovian Nature Reserve (at least 1 page). it costs about 100, but the author should not refuse the collection), and when the person has already arrived-here on the spot from him and take the registration fee. And then it turns out that the poor provincials, who do not have money for the road and hotel, pay for coffee to the rich, for whom this "thousand is not money". This is a question of ethics, which has fallen unusually now in the "capitals" and especially among the owners of stray RANOVSKY and other money.
\> Abstracts of the congress materials are a showcase of the Company's achievements over 5 years.
-- Theses of reports are theses of REPORTS made at the conference. A report is a work, collection, report article, etc.
> Everyone who has achievements should be registered there, not just those who have arrived. And where did you see a conference with 100% arrival of all registered participants? There are always "part-time students", and I hope this will continue to be the case at all normal conferences.
--- in the world, of course, this is not the case. Yes, there are always those who planned, but could not, but do not make a rule out of it.\
LB: There's nothing to argue about. Take any collection of previous congresses or conferences from the library and look up the registration documents - what % of authors came here. With my income, I can come to St. Petersburg once a year for 3-4 days for intensive scientific work, from 9 to 19. And to ride for a 10-minute performance, even if it's interesting communication-and even in the middle of the field season-sorry, I can't-you can also communicate by mail. Besides, I'm not much of an orator as a scribbler. Unless they personally ask and pay for the trip with the hotel.
---if I could refuse to participate in the organization of the congress, I would be happy to do so after such discussions.

LB: You don't have to give up: for a batsman, they give you two unbroken ones. It's just that something has already been interrupted in our northern capital: all the best traditions are being trampled on, and someone is trying to make money out of everything that people have left for the soul.

L. V. Bolshakov to Mr. Coelioxys
today, 01: 35

---- About absentee participation. If someone sleeps and sees that his theses are published, although he himself is not going to come to the Congress, if someone after this publication feels like a real member of the REO and even more like a real entomologist, then so be it. Make a smaller contribution for such friends and let them put their "achievements on display".

LB: If we talk specifically about regional branches, this is not our main showcase - they are located in other places where there are no such restrictions on the listing of publications. This is the showcase of the REO CA itself. And you can understand why it is always in such a concise form. And we feel that we are real members of the REO because we are still doing everything that the Society was created for, and we are doing it almost or completely free of charge and of no less high quality, unlike the RAN institutions.

I didn't want to interfere, but the REO issue has been bothering me for a long time... I have no problems becoming a member of the Geographical Society, which is happy to accept amateurs who, for a number of reasons, often go on more expeditions (I don't mean tourist trips) than many respected academicians, and qualitatively promote the society's activities and science in general, including their essays, articles, etc. But, unfortunately, REO is such a "serious" organization that it does not need "enthusiasts", but apparently it has forgotten that it is amateurs who do a good half of science, and not only in entomology. It's just that some people have understood it, and some don't, or don't want to understand it. I, like many of my colleagues, am not allowed to go there. So what do you want, colleagues from REO? Do you "spit out" people, and create unbearable conditions for the remaining ones? I am making a commercial, UNPROFITABLE enterprise in Moscow (congress-bursa)! And I spend on this, believe me, much more PERSONAL funds than I spend on the REO congress, this is called SPONSORSHIP! That is, what, as I understand it, you are looking for and do not find. You won't find it, with all due respect to REO and its traditions. Yes, it just so happens that you have little interest in RAS, but we need to move forward! Explain why REO, such a closed structure, is a secret society? Why can't I get there (of course, this is not about specifics, I mean amateurs)? For example, I would not be sorry to allocate funds for holding the REO congress, not to mention pens, so that the congress does not become a mirror image of the Moscow COMMERCIAL bursa, with a difference in theses. And after all, all you need to do is be closer to people, then everything will be fine, and premises, and money for pens and "free theses". Don't be afraid of changes! With respect and good wishes to REO.

This post was edited by Entoterra - 01/20/2012 19: 57

Oh, I don't like commercial entomology, but I support the Entoterra message! Here in Ukraine, too, one way or another they give a lapel-turn to amateurs, and also unpleasant moments with the "assignment of material".. therefore, I began to avoid all this "official cuisine".
I very much hope that as a result of such debates, a real Society will emerge, in which it will be possible to participate "at the call of disha" and not in the pursuit of ratings and crusts..

> I'm surprised to read that in a city like St. Petersburg, you can't find a place where several dozen people can sit!
-- Are you deliberately distorting it?? LTA also provides a place for several hundred people with video equipment and staff. Is free.


> LB: According to the formula: REO in ZIN, ZIN in RAS. Both according to the Charter and"according to concepts". If you have to do this, then ask the accounting department. You will most likely be referred to the "loan manager" - this is either the director (rector) himself, or his deputy. on general issues (Vice-rector for ACH).
- - - this is an inappropriate use. The university is funded (very poorly) for the education of students. I.e. Do you offer criminal schemes? I don't really like it...


> But it is still not good to collect 1000 rubles for 1 page; it is necessary to collect 300 rubles only for the collection, as in the Mordovian Nature Reserve (at least 1 page). it costs about 100, but the author should not refuse the collection), and when the person already arrives-here on the spot from him and take the registration fee.
- yes, and run to print theses, the program, order pies, etc..... Nonsense....


> And then it turns out that poor provincials who do not have money for travel and a hotel pay for coffee to rich
people-You just joke when you write this?


But, unfortunately, REO is such a "serious" organization that it does not need "enthusiasts", but apparently it has forgotten that it is amateurs who do a good half of science, and not only in entomology. It's just that some people have understood it, and some don't, or don't want to understand it. I, like many of my colleagues, am not allowed to go there. So what do you want, colleagues from REO? Do you "spit out" people, and create unbearable conditions for the remaining ones?
"What are you talking about?" Where and by whom is it closed? Who creates unbearable conditions for you?? How does it spit out from you ????


> Explain why REO, such a closed structure, is a secret society?
"where is it closed?"??

It already seems to me that we live on different planets and talk about different REOs.... I do not know of a single person who has been denied REO membership...

My attempt to join the REO in 2005 was mockingly "stopped" by several full members, whose names, I am sure, are familiar to you, but I do not name them for ethical reasons, with the words contained in paragraph 3.3 of the current REO charter ( about the availability of scientific papers...). By the way, the REO charter is also MISSING on the official website of the REO (maybe I'm wrong and didn't find it...). I found the charter only on the website of the Stavropol branch, for which I thank him very much... Perhaps something has changed, well, if so. However, to join the Russian Geographical Society, I did not need to look for the recommendations of two full members. And if I lived in a far Northern village, studied the entomofauna of my region, and well, I don't know any actual members..... Don't you think it's repulsive? Why don't you follow the example of other similar organizations? It seems to me that any society, where, according to the charter, you can only get into by blackmail... sorry, this is initially closed. I'm not going to run around asking for recommendations from members who aren't willing to give them recommendations because they don't need to. And something tells me that I'm not the only one. For example, will you give me a recommendation? Unlikely... We don't know each other. And many amateurs have a very narrow circle of communication, that's exactly what you refuse from them, and there are so many of them! In Moscow alone, there are several dozen people I know personally, but I don't know them....

This post was edited by Entoterra - 20.01.2012 21: 02

Wow, well, I'll try to search on the website of some Department, otherwise I just wondered what kind of secret information this charter is..

Here it is

http://stavres.entomology.ru/ustavres.html

This post was edited by Hierophis - 20.01.2012 20: 49

I don't know... I joined in 1990, when I was still a student... and for a couple of years I was a competitive member, I think without articles... Recommendations are an old tradition...

OK, I'll tell you that you need to lay out the Charter and think through the membership requirements...

But I think the fears are exaggerated....

///

Meanwhile, I fully support the organizers of the congress! This is hard work and, at times, ungrateful! Whatever the criticisms, they are doing a great job of popularizing our beloved entomology, and believe me, they want to do the best they can. And the problems, they come from above.
As for the REO itself, simplifying the procedure for joining by changing the relevant clause of the charter will certainly benefit the development of the society, as I think.

I read the charter...
There is no mention of amateurs as such. However, there are all sorts of categories that any amateur, collector, sponsor, etc. can fit into.

Narrmer paragraph 3.3
Asterisks divided the categories, the last of them - just bottomless-anyone can be "pulled by the ears" if desired

3.3. Full members of the REO may be scientists * * * * * practitioners** * * * as well as other persons who have scientific works in entomology and related specialties *****or whose activities contribute to the implementation of the Company's goals and objectives.

So a very strange rejection.. Personal moments probably, in science this is very common, especially in entomology

Maybe.... However, no one canceled the recommendations.

Well, they say it's a tradition.
Although the mechanism of implementing traditions on the part of the candidate is certainly difficult to understand. Toset, you need to somehow show yourself, "get into trust"(straight spy passion) as a minimum of two REO members, well, or ask for a recommendation from the university where you studied/are studying...

Pavel, if you had told me about this at the bursa the year before last, you would have immediately organized at least a dozen recommendations. We have 11 hours in the department, only 7 articles have articles, now there are only 3.5 formal professionals left - the rest are " practitioners "and"other persons". Not everyone is active, of course, but everyone pays dues - unfortunately, they go into this bottomless barrel. And now I will be able to arrange at least 4 recommendations for you when I will be in Moscow, in early February. The entrance fee to the REO is 300 rubles., the annual fee is still 100, you can be in the Moscow branch according to the territorial principle, you can be in the Tula branch, or you can be in the "central subordination", pay directly at the headquarters.
Unfortunately, my colleague Musolin's confusion seems to confirm my assumption that the administrations of St. Petersburg institutions do not care about the congress. It is enough to order the director (rector) - and immediately not only for notebooks and pies, but also for something stronger, they will find funds, and the staff will be mobilized, and the" quorum " will be collected, especially in the university. And to organize an event in conditions of quiet sabotage on the part of the administrations is of course difficult.
There were also contemptuous suggestions about the "collection for the poor". Technically, this is not difficult, but I can't act without the approval of the Presidium - you can't be an impostor. Each author is charged 300 rubles., abstracts can be expanded to 1 page in A4 format, 10 pt, with a single interval. Interesting theses can sometimes be allowed a little more. Only here editing will not be as "democratic" as in St. Petersburg, but at least with the requirement to comply with the ICZN. And I will make sure that there are no funny materials at least on butterflies (such as the list of KK-species of the N-region, or 5 species of bears in the N - republic of the North Caucasus) - otherwise they are poor and completely become "ownerless". And the collection will be strong, will not crumble after 5 pages, like the products of the northern capital. But I don't have any subordinates - sending out collections will be slow, but PDFs will be available immediately.

Pavel, if you had told me about this at the bursa the year before last, you would have immediately organized at least a dozen recommendations. We have 11 hours in the department, only 7 articles have articles, now there are only 3.5 formal professionals left - the rest are " practitioners "and"other persons". Not everyone is active, of course, but everyone pays dues - unfortunately, they go into this bottomless barrel. And now I will be able to arrange at least 4 recommendations for you when I will be in Moscow, in early February. The entrance fee to the REO is 300 rubles., the annual fee is still 100, you can be in the Moscow branch according to the territorial principle, you can be in the Tula branch, or you can be in the "central subordination", pay directly at the headquarters.
Unfortunately, my colleague Musolin's confusion seems to confirm my assumption that the administrations of St. Petersburg institutions do not care about the congress. It is enough to order the director (rector) - and immediately not only for notebooks and pies, but also for something stronger, they will find funds, and the staff will be mobilized, and the" quorum " will be collected, especially in the university. And to organize an event in conditions of quiet sabotage on the part of the administrations is of course difficult.
There were also contemptuous suggestions about the "collection for the poor". Technically, this is not difficult, but I can't act without the approval of the Presidium - you can't be an impostor. Each author is charged 300 rubles., abstracts can be expanded to 1 page in A4 format, 10 pt, with a single interval. Interesting theses can sometimes be allowed a little more. Only here editing will not be as "democratic" as in St. Petersburg, but at least with the requirement to comply with the ICZN. And I will make sure that there are no funny materials at least on butterflies (such as the list of KK-species of the N-region, or 5 species of bears in the N - republic of the North Caucasus) - otherwise they are poor and completely become "ownerless". And the collection will be strong, will not crumble after 5 pages, like the products of the northern capital. But I don't have any subordinates - sending out collections will be slow, but PDFs will be available immediately.

I apologize, but there was nothing contemptuous in my words about the "congress for the poor". Absolutely not. If I were to organize two conventions, I would still think about which one to participate in (and it would be better to organize an "alternative" one so that those who want to attend can get there in time). As for my non-planned participation in the "alternative" organizing committee-I have the right word, if only someone would take it, I would help to the best of my ability and take into account the likely absence from the city for most of the summer. As for the approval of the Presidium-duc and who said that at the second congress it is necessary to sculpt the official stamp of the REO?

You probably mistook something else for" coworker confusion." It's just that my upbringing doesn't allow me to answer more directly what I think about sweeping and not quite intelligent accusations (such as redneckism)...

I don't see the point of flooding here. My suggestion: Write your reasoned proposals - both on the Charter, membership, and Ent Review-IN ADVANCE and send them to the Presidium (there are addresses on the site, and I am ready to send them). I'm sure everything will be considered. This is more productive than just putting everything out in an emotional speech at the congress and demanding immediate decisions.

This is an offer to everyone.

I, in turn, will pass several points to the Presidium in a week.

Colleagues, take a look at how everything works at the Royal Entomological Society. You can also join there, for Russia there is a preferential fee of 40 pounds!
http://www.royensoc.co.uk/

Membership in the European Lepidopteran Island (SEL) costs E40 for everyone. This includes a subscription to the journal Nota Lepidopterologica (2 issues per year, approximately 300 pages per annual volume, full-color printing) with worldwide airmail. The duration of articles in the Note is approximately 1.5 years (now it has increased due to tougher peer review). You get a PDF after publication and 25 prints for free. Each issue is accompanied by a small journal with a report on the activities of the organization, changes in the addresses of members, and information about new members. The journal is cited in Scopus. My suggestion is to publish on the REO website a list of all REO members with contact information and indicated scientific interests. Is it really impossible to do this at the beginning of the 21st century? And I think it's very interesting and useful for everyone.

If there was a congress of 2-3 thousand people, I would hardly go.
I will step aside from the intensity of passions and counting other people's and my own money.

My first conference was the REO congress in Krasnodar five years ago. Which I went to while receiving only three post-graduate thousand.
The most important thing that I took away was the special atmosphere of the entomological congress. This is the realization that you are not the only one who is so "sick" in the head (Balashov is still a remote place). It is also an opportunity for me to see and communicate with the "relics" of the entomological world, to make new acquaintances.

That's why I'll be looking for an opportunity to go to the convention. Just my opinion.

I wrote about how to collect money correctly. How to make a collection too. How to ask for the help of directors (rectors) too. While I'm posting what I thought up under the Charter - about individual membership, by the way, everything is well written there. We will not only process all this and send it to the congress, but we may also publish it.
I apologize for the long-winded "pamphlets", I'm taking a break from butterflies.
Amendments, additions, and issues to the Charter.
First of all, it is necessary that the Charter be available on the Internet not only on the websites of some branches, but above all on the website of the Central Council.
1. According to Chapters 3 and 4.
1) It is not clear at all what "collective membership"is. The main thing is-what kind of contribution, CONTRIBUTIONS and by what principle do they make, how do they vote? Today in the institution one director - one policy, tomorrow another-will say, why do I need REO? Today there are entomologists there, tomorrow there are none - and who will work? If it is not possible to formulate this precisely and prescribe it in the Charter, then "collective" membership should also be canceled. We have territorial branches, so you can use the term "collective member" and "branch" synonymously. Moreover, large institutions with a single "entomological management" can act as discrete departments, and within one subject of the Russian Federation, due to competitive relations and other specifics, 2 or more local departments can be organized.
2) Add new Articles:
- - - Members of the REO who sponsor scientific publications, the entomological component of which is presented and edited by members of the Society, are exempt from paying annual membership fees. (Because the ZIN told me: we can't support your publications, we don't have time to edit them. But "I" have an editorial board made up of world-famous specialists, members of the REO, and it works in general more efficiently than all the editorial boards of VAKOV journals combined).
3) Develop regulations on the printing bodies of the REO CA and REO branches, where official documents are published, among other things. Now the CA is, as it seems, an "Entomological Review", but there is information that it does not belong to the REO or does not fully belong. I can't check it out: I have to go to Moscow and look at new issues in libraries. REO members are published there on an incomprehensible principle, the editorial board works in violation of all moral norms and also skips articles of intraregional significance (the most striking example is Insects of the CC RF in the N-sk republic). About pricing for EO - "a great mystery...". As a result, the Company does not actually have its own central body. Perhaps it is easier to leave the EO to the person who now owns it (even if he sells it for 2 or 4 thousand rubles), and revive his original "Russian Entomological Review"? There are regional publications in some places, but the CA is not supported: it is necessary to specify in the Charter the obligation to support them, at least to the detriment of such Works of the ZIN or REO, which crumble after flipping through.
2. According to Chapter 5
, Article 5.1 ." The highest body of REO is the Congress of the Company" (!).
1) This is not very correct, because the congress meets once every 5 years. In fact, such a body is the Central Council headed by the Presidium. (Analogy: The highest body of the CPSU was not actually the CPSU Congress, but the Central Committee headed by the Politburo, which, if my memory serves me correctly, was elected by the Congress with the same frequency.)
2) But it should be said that the Central Executive Committee and other bodies are elected by the Congress for such and such a term; the most important organizational decisions are made by the Congress.
3) Specify the mandatory composition of delegates to the congress and the norm of representation from branches (for example, 1 delegate from 10 people). After all, all REO members cannot physically come to the congress, they cannot physically "interactively" vote, but they can elect delegates in their branches and give them their instructions. The right to vote at the congress should not be granted to all members sitting in the hall, but to delegates of branches in accordance with the norm of representation.
4) Prescribe a voting mechanism for those branches that (primarily due to the lack of special funding) cannot send delegates to the congress, but may have a certain opinion.
But now it turns out not very democratic: the congress in St. Petersburg-pass decisions that seem right to a large local group, in Moscow-similarly. And it is unrealistic to hold congresses in neutral territories. As A RESULT, THE DECISIONS OF THE CONGRESS ADOPTED IN THE TERRITORIES DOMINATED BY CROWDED BRANCHES HAVE NO LEGITIMACY.
3. According to Chapter 7. Specify that the general financial report of the REO CA should be published in the printed body of the Company (for now - "Entomological Review"), posted on the CA website and brought to the attention of the chairmen of all branches. Let people see where their contributions are going.
4. According to Chapter 8. It is not true that (Article 8.1) "branches of REO...are legal entities". Many, if not all, departments do not have such "faces". But- " maybe...".

Roman and Lavr, why are you writing this here? The Presidium does not read this forum. Write a letter to one of the Company's contacts (Belokobylsky, for example)

Roman and Lavr, why are you writing this here? The Presidium does not read this forum. Write a letter to one of the Company's contacts (Belokobylsky, for example)

And why not discuss it here in order to more accurately set the REO?

Indeed, it is very important to discuss specific proposals. Indeed, there are many opportunities to improve the company's performance.

Lavr Bolshakov
Lavr, it seems to me that you are too categorical in your judgments. A number of statements - the editorial board works more effectively than all the editorial boards of VAKOV journals combined-to put it mildly do not correspond to reality. Unfortunately, despite the fact that Eversmannia is a VERY pleasant publication, no steps were taken even to place the journal's abstracts on the elibrary platform. It seems to me that the promotion of the journal should be multi-faceted - for example, publications in journals that do not have the RSCI impact, Scopus and ISI are simply not taken into account by the management of many institutions.
I think that if we are all more constructive, it will be very good! For everyone.

Lavr Bolshakov
Lavr, it seems to me that you are too categorical in your judgments. A number of statements - the editorial board works more effectively than all the editorial boards of VAKOV journals combined-to put it mildly do not correspond to reality. Unfortunately, despite the fact that Eversmannia is a VERY pleasant publication, no steps were taken even to place the journal's abstracts on the elibrary platform. It seems to me that the promotion of the journal should be multi-faceted - for example, publications in journals that do not have the RSCI impact, Scopus and ISI are simply not taken into account by the management of many institutions.
I think that if we are all more constructive, it will be very good! For everyone.

Rom, you're wrong about that. Just elibrary is no less bureaucratic organization than any of our other academic ones

And what is the difficulty of placing article abstracts on the RSCI platform? Maybe I really don't know something.
The fact is that a number of journals - the Amur Zoological Institute, the Eurasian Economic Journal - even exhibit full texts of articles. Journals that are not commercially interested in this - Zoozhurnal, EO, and Bulletin of the Ministry of Education and Science-submit abstracts of articles with a citation list. It seems to me that if Eversmannia were included in the elibrary system, it would become a much more prestigious publication.
Now it is a very good magazine, but without the necessary formal points for most of the time.

This post was edited by Yakovlev - 22.01.2012 09: 35

Unfortunately, I don't have an employee's office to search for all their coordinates, conclude contracts, and so on. I'm not a publisher, just an editor. But we are working with the publishing house in this regard, although it does not care about this" citation " at all, but something may change soon.
But here on this forum all the essays and some issues are. And if we received a grant from the budget-in a year everything would be displayed, and so we have to wait for almost complete distribution of the circulation. Unlike many other publications, we also send them to the main scientific libraries.
As for the heads of institutions, unless they are like-minded people, I don't care about them, and neither do they care about me. They live in their own world.
I was even recently advised to "get on" the VAKOV list. But getting there is a complete end for an independent publication and the beginning of the end for a scientific one. There are many examples.

As far as I understand, "to get into the VAKOV list" - this, according to the current rules, can also be achieved by getting into international referencing systems. However, I do not know the terms of this hit, not being a member of the editorial board of anything other than the cathedral collection. But it is unlikely that this would be "the complete end for an independent publication and the beginning of the end for a scientific one". A lot of trouble, IMHO, shines only when you get into the system "Science-interperiodics" with its wild prices and draconian rules.

PS There, on the website of the Higher Attestation Commission, of course, an ambiguity is written that is suitable for free interpretation: "Scientific periodicals that meet a sufficient condition, the current numbers of which or their translated versions in a foreign language are included in at least one of the citation systems (bibliographic databases) Web of Science, Scopus, Web of Knowledge, Astrophysics, PubMed, Mathematics, Chemical Abstracts, Springer, Agris, GeoRef, are included in the List. Journals that are not included in these citation systems (bibliographic databases) must meet all the necessary criteria for inclusion in the List." But I have come across such an interpretation that if the magazine is included in at least one of these databases, then it is equated with "VAK". Taking into account the fact that, again strictly speaking, the use of "VAKOV lists" is of a recommendatory nature, the situation is actually decided at the discretion of the specific academic council.

This post was edited by PVOzerski - 22.01.2012 14: 58

Getting into Web of Science is almost impossible, and Scopus is a little easier. The most realistic way to start is to get into the RSCI, and the HAC list is no longer relevant in the light of recent events.

colleagues, let's write only what we are sure of, and not create myths and rumors...

The HAC list has not gone away, and it will also be used in the new HAC Regulations. This must be taken into account in our conditions.

In Web of Science, you can send w-l even by mail. I sent my book.

The REO Charter should be discussed. But then you need to remember to send it to the REO, and not just leave this chatter here.

You can send anything, anywhere, but what's the point? And they don't index books at all, it's not ZR.
Can you find a link about the new position of the Higher Attestation Commission and this "new" list itself, so as not to generate myths and rumors?

The office that makes Web of Science has a procedure for including journals, you can negotiate with them (they also do ZR, as far as I remember).

I'm not a secret. That's why I didn't search for the draft Regulation myself. I was told that it hangs on the site of YOU or the Ministry of Labor, now I looked first, but did not find it. I don't have time.

There is no new list, the old one is hanging: http://vak.ed.gov.ru/ru/help_desk/list/ -- so it hasn't changed yet.