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Lycaenidae

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29.01.2011 19:11, Kharkovbut

To the question of Maculinea or Phengaris
Other materials on this case:

http://iczn.org/content/case-3508-maculine...-over-phengaris

http://iczn.org/content/comments-proposed-...1891-lepidopter

http://iczn.org/content/comments-proposed-...1891-lepidopt-0

Unfortunately, I did not find the full text of Case 3508 in the public domain.
Likes: 1

29.01.2011 19:23, Vlad Proklov

Other materials on this case:

http://iczn.org/content/case-3508-maculine...-over-phengaris

http://iczn.org/content/comments-proposed-...1891-lepidopter

http://iczn.org/content/comments-proposed-...1891-lepidopt-0

Unfortunately, I have not found the full text of Case 3508 in the public domain.

Aha -- as they say, let's compare the argumentation smile.gif

29.01.2011 20:43, bora

The argument is somewhat strange - extremely bureaucratic.
Following this logic - all pigeons, at least, Lycaena, and even Papilio, perhaps.

This post was edited by bora - 29.01.2011 20: 46
Likes: 1

30.01.2011 15:11, bora

here I found such a charm

Save my sinful soul!
Likes: 1

30.01.2011 15:13, rhopalocera.com

here I found such a charm



) my preshessss © gorlum

Three rings for the Elven kings
Under the Sky
© gorthaur

triads... triads... soon, Mr. Lastukhin will start customizing forms for them

30.01.2011 15:50, introvert

) my preshessss © gorl

mr. lastukhin will start customizing the shapes

But how skrenne and enthusiastic.

30.01.2011 15:52, introvert

But how skrenne and enthusiastic.

ISRENNE ("I" -infection lost) wall.gif

30.01.2011 16:03, Guest

now "k"is

30.01.2011 16:30, introvert

now "k"

mol.gif mol.gif mol.gif

30.01.2011 17:09, barko

Very interesting information appeared on the website of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. Identification of pigeons by wing color.

http://translate.google.com/translate?tl=e...tokat-126919%2F

The original text is given in Hungarian. The translator "does not take" some complex words, so they need/can be translated separately, for example, here http://orosz-szotar.hu/?word=jelz%C5%91&la...trictness=first
Likes: 1

31.01.2011 11:51, Penzyak

.. this is "not new" - read Artemyeva...
wall.gif

31.01.2011 14:08, AGG

and where such rasprovilochki give mol.gif

02.02.2011 5:21, bora

Damon/ripartii females

Pictures:
picture: female_damon_ripartii.jpg
female_damon_ripartii.jpg — (183.43к)

Likes: 7

02.02.2011 7:42, Proctos

I wonder how these species differ in appearance? I do not know how to identify butterflies, the only thing I found was the shape of the rounded apex of the hind wings and the presence/absence of small spots.

Pictures:
picture: post_13014_1296613252_n.jpg
post_13014_1296613252_n.jpg — (171.19к)

02.02.2011 9:24, Kallima

For comparison, I post my find here,
which resembles A. damon in its underside.
15.07.2009. Neighborhood of Oryol, p. Luzhki.

Pictures:
picture: 1111.jpg
1111.jpg — (143.59к)

Likes: 1

02.02.2011 11:03, okoem

I'm still in favor of ripartii. The shape of the apex of the hind wing is rounded, and a denticle is noticeably pronounced in its posterior corner.
As for the presence/absence of eyes on the underparts, in my opinion this is not a sign, but variability. Crimean ripartii usually have ocelli.

Pictures:
picture: agro.jpg
agro.jpg — (106.91к)

02.02.2011 11:36, Kallima

Yes, that's right, the shape of the wings is similar to that of ripartii.
Probably this specimen has an aberration in the direction of increasing the eyes
and a general darkening of the tone of the reverse side,
in addition, a pair of eyes are missing on the front wings at the bottom.

02.02.2011 12:35, okoem

Probably this instance has an aberration in the direction of increasing the eyes
and the general darkening of the tone of the reverse side

Crimean female ripartii. I think it's very similar to yours.
July 11, 2009, north. slope of Chatyr-Dag.
picture: 20090711_090532.jpg
Likes: 2

04.02.2011 14:54, Kallima

Male semiargus (vicinity of Oryol, Luzhki settlement 01.06.08)

This post was edited by Kallima - 04.02.2011 15: 29

Pictures:
picture: _______1.06_08.jpg
_______1.06_08.jpg — (138.3 k)

04.02.2011 15:18, Konung

Male Phengaris alcon (vicinity of Oryol, Luzhki settlement 01.06.08)
Forage plant-cross-shaped gentian.(same location, late June.)

in the image semiargus
Likes: 1

04.02.2011 15:24, Kallima

in the semiargus image

Exactly, the error came out. I'm correcting it.
Alcon leaves later, the border is brown.

04.02.2011 15:53, Kallima

the genus Phengaris and the genus Maculinea are different genera

Just on the website "Butterflies of Europe" alkon assigned to the genus Phengaris
I thought it was the same.

04.02.2011 16:47, Kharkovbut

by the way, the genitals are also very different.
Just look at the genitals of Phengaris for fun. Maybe a link to the literature?

04.02.2011 17:17, bora

upper-lycaena atroguttata, phylum phengaris
lower-papilio alcon, phylum maculinea
how can they be combined into one genus?

And why immediately take species with extreme phenotypes?
Compare, for example, Polyommatus, coridon with rippartii - can we say that they are from the same genus?
Better yet, compare atroguttata with arionides - it's not too far away.

This post was edited by bora-04.02.2011 17: 28

Pictures:
picture: atroguttata_arionides.jpg
atroguttata_arionides.jpg — (112.21к)

Likes: 3

04.02.2011 17:26, bora

And following the previous logic, how can alcon and arionides be compared then?
It turns out that combining arionides with alcon in one genus is also difficult, the phenotypes are too different.

This post was edited by bora - 04.02.2011 17: 37

Pictures:
picture: alcon_arionides.jpg
alcon_arionides.jpg — (120.77к)

Likes: 1

04.02.2011 18:32, bora

  smile.gif it's difficult with you. there is a concept of a typical view. so we compare them. arionides is certainly similar to atroguttata. but again - look at the genitals ). convergent similarity, nothing more. there are fundamental differences in the drawing, which are called the structure plan. do you really need an educational program on the theory of taxonomy and the code? eek.gif


Does the entire genus consist of only the type species? The selection of a type species always occurs by chance, and then species of the same genus are found that are completely different from the type species. What now, to throw them out of the family, the same Arionides? All the prerequisites are obvious, Arionides and Alkon have fundamental differences in the structure plan of the drawing, as it seems to me.
And the theory of taxonomy is not necessary to speculate, here it is not even close to lying. We are talking about combining genera with finding out a valid generic name.

This post was edited by bora - 02/04/2011 18: 42

04.02.2011 18:51, Kharkovbut

I cooked the genitals myself.
Yes, I do not manage, just look at the hotseat. wink.gif

04.02.2011 19:26, Kharkovbut

perhaps arionides should be placed in the third genus?
If that's the case, then maybe it's more likely that Alcona is in the third generation? (Well, I mean, leave Alcona where he was, and the rest - in the 3rd familysmile.gif)?

04.02.2011 19:31, bora

Yes, I do not manage, just look at the hotseat. wink.gif

Found it!!

Pictures:
picture: phengaris_genitalia.jpg
phengaris_genitalia.jpg — (113.11к)

Likes: 2

04.02.2011 19:34, bora

And here's the comparison!
Everything is clear to me.

Pictures:
picture: nausithous_xiushani.jpg
nausithous_xiushani.jpg — (133.28к)

Likes: 7

04.02.2011 23:15, Kharkovbut

Found it!!

BTW, here is the entire article:

Notes on and key to the genus Phengaris (s. str.)
(Lepidoptera, Lycaenidae) from mainland China
with description of a new species
Min Wang, Josef Settele

http://pensoftonline.net/zookeys/index.php...ownload/415/440

11.02.2011 21:31, Michail M

Please confirm the definition

Maculinea kurentzovi
(label lost) possible Primorye ?Arsenyev? july 1991

Pictures:
picture: P1050699.JPG
P1050699.JPG — (194.28к)

picture: P1050700.JPG
P1050700.JPG — (195.1 k)

12.02.2011 15:11, Sergey Rybalkin

Lycaena candens from Dagestan-relative of Heodes hippothoe
Dagestan h=2500m 30.06.2010
Likes: 3

13.02.2011 15:16, Valentinus

If only someone would show me the caterpillar Lycaena candens... shuffle.gif
9.07.2008, Dagestan, Bogos ridge, near the village of Genukh, 2200 m above sea level
picture: Lycaena_candens2.jpg
Likes: 8

13.02.2011 17:49, Sergey Rybalkin

If only someone would show me the caterpillar Lycaena candens... shuffle.gif
9.07.2008, Dagestan, Bogossky ridge, near the village of Genukh, 2200 m above sea level.

The picture is awesome! And you will find the caterpillar and take it off, I have no doubt about it!

25.02.2011 13:15, Penzyak

I'm still in favor of ripartii. (okoem)
- and what's easier, look at the males-Damon's are blue, Rippert's are brown...

25.02.2011 14:10, Alexandr Zhakov

If there were males, there would be no questions.
see the branch: one female was caught.

25.02.2011 20:16, bora

Genitalia of males of some pigeons

Pictures:
picture: male_genitalia.jpg
male_genitalia.jpg — (177.35к)

Likes: 11

02.03.2011 11:31, Penzyak

Lena, is there a chalk outlet with appropriate vegetation at the point where you caught the female "damon"?
According to the time of capture, this may well be a riparty (I am also inclined to attribute your find to this particular species).

02.03.2011 12:55, Kallima

Lena, is there a chalk outlet with appropriate vegetation at the point where you caught the female "damon"?
According to the time of capture, this may well be a riparty (I am also inclined to attribute your find to this particular species).

There are limestone outcrops, I'll be looking for male riparti.

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