Lycaenidae

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23.06.2010 17:17, Penzyak

Guku
Gen, what about the Russian broomstick bush growing in your area in the habitats of the Boisduval pigeon? It will be news if you have observed the laying of eggs by a female on astragalus cf.!!! And why a lost place?? There is probably one specific ant species at these two points-which are necessary for the development of caterpillars of this species. Last year I caught only males - I really want to get to that point on the border with the Saratov region now. I will look for a photo of the biotope-this is a sandy loam edge of a mixed forest with broom bushes - this species was searched for more than ten years (4 points were known)! And last year I was lucky (I'm writing the story "Throw to the South" about this trip - I caught two more new types of diaries there). BUT, we need to figure out exactly what subspecies of eros / Boisduvale lives here. In your female, I see large smears along the edge of the lower wing and there is no bluish dusting at the root, it's interesting... And the top with glitter?

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24.06.2010 12:18, Penzyak

I didn't understand Guka - what does this have to do with belyanki, draughtsmen, satyrs, etc... Give at least one example of the connection between ants and representatives of these diaries??? Yes, I will note in advance that H. lucina is not mentioned here in the essay...

The fact is that the biology of the vast majority of lepidopteran species is VERY poorly studied in Russia , whereas in the West this is not news (alas, such research requires too much time and money/equipment! And "onslaught" will not help the case here)...

To state categorically that there is no connection (this requires specific observations and publications), for example, between Maculinea/Phengaris and ants, is somehow not particularly correct...

Yes, I hope Stas is reading us (rhopalocera.com)!? If my memory serves me correctly, it was he who once published an article in the ZJ where he specifically points out the symbiosis of the Boisduvalet pigeon with certain types of ants (I think in the Nizhny Novgorod region)! There even Zryanin seemed to determine the types of ants...

Unfortunately, my first and MOST IMPORTANT question regarding G. Boisduvalet remained unanswered - what about the Russian broom!?? In the second photo, it is clearly present, but somehow it looks stunted...

AND WHAT ABOUT ASTRAGALUS and Boisduvalet???

This post was edited by Penzyak - 24.06.2010 12: 31

24.06.2010 12:33, bora

May Gennady forgive me for disclosing rather private information.
P. eros boisduvalii lays its eggs on a broom tree if there is a choice between broom and Astragalus varius (which Gennady has in the photo).
Further, the caterpillars of P. eros boisduvalii develop perfectly without any involvement of ants. By the way, argus, bellargus, pilaon, etc., and others are developing just as well (without the slightest involvement of ants), despite a number of individual publications that are remarkable in my opinion, and even solid books. They develop very successfully and quickly without an ant (the entire cycle from egg to adult in 20 days). All this, Oleg, has been tested experimentally. And ants, often, just jackal on the caterpillars and force them to spend energy on the production of sweet liquid as a bribe, so that they are not devoured.

"To state categorically that there is no connection (this requires specific observations and publications), for example, between Maculinea/Phengaris and ants, is somehow not particularly correct..."
And about the intimate relationship between Phengaris and ants, no one here seems to have said a bad word.

This post was edited by bora - 24.06.2010 12: 37

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24.06.2010 12:55, bora

Yes, there are some interesting works (in England) concerning the disappearance of certain species of ants and the pigeon M. arion L. (they later had to prohibit overgrazing, settle ants and import butterflies from Sweden).

Bora
knight's move (i.e. aphids) - the most interesting and extremely entertaining question in this aspect!?? But, are there any Russian articles about this issue?????

I'm telling you, there's no objection to Phengaris being associated with ants.
As for the majority of other pigeons, everything is greatly exaggerated, and often far-fetched.

Oleg, have you ever mowed down pigeon caterpillars? Half of the contents of the net are aphids, if you look under the leaf, aphids, if you look at the flowers, aphids. You bring food home to the caterpillars - you beat it, you beat it, then you vacuum around from aphids, and you ask "oats" - you look through a magnifying glass, and there are aphids again.
And where there are aphids , there are ants.

This post was edited by bora - 24.06.2010 12: 58

24.06.2010 14:06, Penzyak

In May, on a trip to the north-east of the region, I mowed down the caterpillars of some pigeons on the Russian broom. I was delighted! The biotope was very suitable for the Boisduval pigeon! (the caterpillars were the penultimate or last instar). I cut branches from these bushes, cut off goosebumps (clearly one species-probably sabuleti (we are actively collecting ants now - we were promised to identify them!) and aphids), put them in water and they developed perfectly without goosebumps (and aphid piles) and pupated. Unfortunately, P. argus pigeons emerged from their greenish pupae after 10-12 days (with a clearly visible spike on the front paw even to the naked eye). We will continue to search...

And on aphids Boris, I became interested in this - somewhere in the West there was information that the caterpillars of pigeons can also milk and even eat aphids... So animal protein in the development of some species of pigeons can be present and bypassing the nests of ants!??

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24.06.2010 15:46, bora

And on aphids Boris, I became interested in this - somewhere in the West there was information that the caterpillars of pigeons can also milk and even eat aphids... So animal protein in the development of some species of pigeons can be present and bypassing the nests of ants!??

Unfortunately, I did not see how pigeons milk aphids, but I clearly saw how the argus goose milks another argus caterpillar. And how teberdins of the first age literally "drink" (do not even eat, but somehow literally drink) each other, and how maracandicus of the fourth age climb on the" nape " of another caterpillar and devour it, too, I saw.
And protein - not for nothing the mass of pigeons is on legumes, which contain a high concentration of protein.

This post was edited by bora - 24.06.2010 15: 48

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12.07.2010 2:32, palvasru4ko

It seems that we have already come to the conclusion that pljushtchi is an independent species.

Okay, so be it. I don't mind.
But then, what criteria are currently set for the genus Agrodiaetus, according to which it is decided whether it is a species or a subspecies? Earlier, for example, if I am not mistaken, the idea prevailed that if there are some differences in color and a different number of chromosomes, then these are different SPECIES. If there are some differences in color, and the number of chromosomes is the same, it means SUBSPECIES. In my opinion, it was so. Or am I wrong? Now we have moved away from this...
I may be wrong, but without criteria, the interpretation of a taxon as a species or as a subspecies is probably more a matter of taste than the result of an objective approach to the question.

12.07.2010 12:56, palvasru4ko

Are they distinguishable by their appearance? I don't think so.

I don't have a large pljushtchi series (I only caught this one), but when compared with my damocles, it seemed to me that the pljushtchi's underside is lighter, and the edge of the front wing is less convex. But this is all relative and without a series of instances - doubtful. We need more copies, otherwise what if this one is a "freak"? The size of damocles ' spots varies... The similarity is extremely large... I would never have thought from its appearance that it was a new species... I understand why Ivy, when catching the first individuals, attributed them to damocles, or rather to poseidon (previously it was thought so). Here's a note (if anyone is interested):
picture: 1.jpg

This post was edited by palvasru4ko - 15.07.2010 18: 26

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12.07.2010 23:26, palvasru4ko

the cell is completely filled in... You can see it on the left. Interesting!
If I correctly understood this article, then the "reasons" in the complex allegedly giving the right to consider pljushtchi as a species are as follows:
1. The pljushtchi taxon is monovoltaic, while some other subspecies of Agrodiaetus damone (tanais, irinae, damone) produce two generations per year.
2. pljushtchi imagos stay on rocky cliffs, not going out on flat areas, while other subspecies of Agrodiaetus damone are common in flat areas.
3. Significant isolation and extreme locality.
4. Another forage plant.
All this is true, but in the fauna of the Crimea there are other species with similar "differences". Even if not with all of them at once, this can be regarded as an adaptation to local conditions. Immediately dismiss the other feed. In Crimea, only 2 kopecks - pale and Crimean. Pale eats damocles. The choice is small, you have to eat Crimean, in order to somehow get rid of the competition. Give pljushtchi to eat the same pennies that other subspecies of damone eat-just in case you like them even more!
Among the Crimean "Diaries" there are species that live outside the Crimean Peninsula on the plain, and in the Crimea they are found exclusively in its mountain and forest part. Such are, for example, the pigeon beetles Lycaena virgaureae (Linnaeus, 1758) and Plebejus idas (Linnaeus, 1761), and some other species. The thick-headed Syrichtus tessellum (Hübner, [1803]) is generally found only on yayls. Moreover, Syrichtus tessellum and Plebejus idas develop one generation per year in the Crimea, while outside the peninsula – two. But no one even thinks about raising them even to the level of "endemic subspecies". And then-just a view. The generational situation is easily explained. Crimea is too dry. Only in the mountainous part of the peninsula is the microclimate more or less suitable, but it is enough for the development of only one generation per year. All the same, the vegetation quickly "burns out".
The presence of pljushtchi on rocky cliffs, in contrast to similar taxa, is certainly of some interest, but it may be due to the distribution of a food plant. And the fact that it (pljushtchi) is not in the Eastern Crimea-does not mean that this is a "real mountain view". They themselves write that they didn't find any food on Babugan yayl. And given that
pljushtchi is quite strongly tied to the place of growth of kopeechnik - the migration ability of it, I think, is not so great as to overcome this gap in the growth of a forage plant. Alternatively, pljushtchi populations in eastern Crimea may simply not be discovered yet. This is not a stone in someone's garden, Pseudochazara euxina on Chatyr-Dag was found only recently, although Chatyr-Dag was trampled along and across like a long time ago... This is more likely to trigger the rule "be at the right time and in the right place". But for now, the pljushtchi taxon is a "narrow - range endemic".

This post was edited by palvasru4ko - 15.07.2010 18: 33

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13.07.2010 15:55, Alexandr Zhakov

1. The pljushtchi taxon is monovoltaic, while some other subspecies of Agrodiaetus damone (tanais, irinae, damone) produce two generations per year.
2. pljushtchi imagos stay on rocky cliffs, not going out on flat areas, while other subspecies of Agrodiaetus damone are common in flat areas.
3. Significant isolation and extreme locality.
4. Another forage plant.

5. Phylogenetic analysis based on a comparison of 1960 nucleotide pairs of mitochondrial cytochrome oxidase I and II genes (COI and SOY) (Kandul et al., 2004; Lukhtanov et al., 2005) showed that the taxa A. pljushtchi and A. damone are not closely related (Fig. 1). Moreover, A. pljushtchi is ranked among the most common taxa in the world. A. damone sensu lato is a sister taxon to all other species that form a compact cluster of closely related, partially sympatric forms. The isolated position of A. pljushtchi in the phylogenetic tree was confirmed using both the maximum economy method (97% bootstrap support), the maximum likelihood method (100% bootstrap support), and the Bayesian method (100% posteriori probability) (Kandul et al., 2004; Lukhtanov et al., 2005)
A combination of facts - the absence of a close phylogenetic relationship, its location in a different ecological niche, together with the morphological differences noted earlier (Budashkin and Lukhtanov, 1993) - indicate the species independence of A. pljushtchi.

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